So.. for all the mac users who have tried windows 7...

By Lels
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Grand Master

Shadrack

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i would agree with that, windows 7 is great, but it still feels like windows and that's why i'll prolly not use it as much as i do a mac... I think OSX is still miles ahead of windows in terms of multi tasking, but windows 7 does help.

Could you please provide more detail on where you think Windows falls short on multi-tasking? I've got about 8 programs open, and I could easly open another 8 more. If one crashes, it won't bring down my whole system. What does Mac OS do for multitasking that Windows currently isn't doing?

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Grand Master

+Frank B. Subscriber²

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i would agree with that, windows 7 is great, but it still feels like windows and that's why i'll prolly not use it as much as i do a mac... I think OSX is still miles ahead of windows in terms of multi tasking, but windows 7 does help.

Microsoft needs a means of making 3rd party developers conform to their user interface guidelines. For example by creating a 'designed for Windows 7' logo given only to software which makes use of the advanced features of the superbar (jump lists, thumbnail previews, media player controls), sticks to the standard Windows keyboard shortcuts, uses only the default UI elements for toolbars/ribbons etc.

MS themselves should then be the first to make some of their apps - namely Office - follow their own UI guidelines.

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Minimoose

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The "superbar" is a step up from the task bar and mimics the Mac OS Dock.

This is just a blatant lie, having larger icons is an option, but it doesn't mean that superbar = osx dock. (It also doesn't mean that superbar > osx dock or vice versa, they function in different ways and some people will prefer one over the other)

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Grand Master

Quillz

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I installed it on my iMac via Boot Camp, and so far I'm positively surprised. As has been said before: Win7 is Vista like it should have been back in 2006.

Is it good enough to make me switch back 100%? No.

Am I going to buy it after RTM and keep a dual-boot configuration? You bet.

And Leopard is what Tiger should have been like back in 2005.

I like using Windows via Boot Camp, but Apple needs to update their drivers again. It turns out you can use the Bluetooth keyboard in Windows, but you have to do a lot of extra steps because Apple's Bluetooth driver is buggy.

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Grand Master

+Frank B. Subscriber²

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And Leopard is what Tiger should have been like back in 2005.

I like using Windows via Boot Camp, but Apple needs to update their drivers again. It turns out you can use the Bluetooth keyboard in Windows, but you have to do a lot of extra steps because Apple's Bluetooth driver is buggy.

I wouldn't count on Apple updating the Boot Camp drivers for Win7 before it reaches RTM.

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Alex Suraci

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And Leopard is what Tiger should have been like back in 2005.

Huh? Tiger was great. People are saying 7 is what Vista should have been because Vista was seen as a letdown. The comparison doesn't transfer to Tiger and Leopard.

I like using Windows via Boot Camp, but Apple needs to update their drivers again. It turns out you can use the Bluetooth keyboard in Windows, but you have to do a lot of extra steps because Apple's Bluetooth driver is buggy.

I've been running Windows 7 for about two weeks with the bluetooth keyboard, no problems at all. I just didn't install any drivers. Didn't see a need to.

--- On-topic:

I've been a Mac user since Christmas of '06. I'm building a PC and switching to Windows, at least initially. I prefer the freedom and flexibility with hardware and customization, but I still see OS X or Linux as the better OS for me. Windows is just too inconsistent, and its software lineup doesn't seem to have progressed very much at all since I left. Other operating systems seem much more fast-paced (*especially* OS X, which has new delicious software coming out every week), which is odd considering their market share.

The reasons I'm going with Windows are 1) support, 2) gaming, and 3) it seems like it'd be easier to tweak/overclock my system with it. E-LEET and all that. Also, it'll be fun to revisit my customization roots.

Who knows, maybe I'll attempt a Hackintosh if Windows bothers me enough, but I've survived this long.

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Grand Master

giga Veteran

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I've never used a Windows application that didn't support Alt+F4.

Alt+F4 is not an equivalent to CMD+Q.

If there are multiple windows of the same app, it will only close the current active window. This means that if I have multiple windows of Firefox/Word/Notepad/etc open, it will only close the active window while leaving other windows open. (thus leaving the application running)

Even worse, alt+f4 is even further diminished for applications that minimize to the tray. (Utorrent, Pidgin) Now when you hit alt+f4, they just minimize to the tray. To close Pidgin, you have to use ctrl+q. What?

My CMD+Q shortcut was just one example though. Others system and application wide shortcuts include CMD+, (preferences), CMD+` (cycle windows per application), CMD+M (minimize window), CMD+H (hide). Pretty much every application respects these shortcuts (aside from Adobe, ugh). There's just no comparison really.

The reason why I made the comment about changing the name is if you try to replace the registry with a "better" system, you just end up making another database, and it wouldn't be any different. There seems to be this myth going around that using a registry is inherently bad, Mac will obviously store all its OS wide settings somewhere and it will probably look similar to the registry (a DB).

It wouldn't be any different in concept, but it would be different in use. Troubleshooting application bugs and crashes are a ton easier when application preferences are stored in an accessible, user friendly folder.

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Grand Master

rajputwarrior

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Could you please provide more detail on where you think Windows falls short on multi-tasking? I've got about 8 programs open, and I could easly open another 8 more. If one crashes, it won't bring down my whole system. What does Mac OS do for multitasking that Windows currently isn't doing?

expos? + spaces is what i mean for multitasking. Haven't multiple programs just means you enough ram that can deal with everything...

I don't think multitasking means what you think it means.

i mean its how you can work when you have multiple things open and how easy it is to organize everything. I like being able to hit my side mouse button and expos? shows all the windows and all i have to do is click the one i want. The fact you get a live preview of the window to helps a lot. Also drag and drop is still a lot better in OSX in my opinion. Being able to navigate through the finder while holding onto something with the left click mouse button is still one of the most under rated features of OSX.

Alt+F4 is not an equivalent to CMD+Q.

If there are multiple windows of the same app, it will only close the current active window. This means that if I have multiple windows of Firefox/Word/Notepad/etc open, it will only close the active window while leaving other windows open. (thus leaving the application running)

Even worse, alt+f4 is even further diminished for applications that minimize to the tray. (Utorrent, Pidgin) Now when you hit alt+f4, they just minimize to the tray. To close Pidgin, you have to use ctrl+q. What?

My CMD+Q shortcut was just one example though. Others system and application wide shortcuts include CMD+, (preferences), CMD+` (cycle windows per application), CMD+M (minimize window), CMD+H (hide). Pretty much every application respects these shortcuts (aside from Adobe, ugh). There's just no comparison really.

this can affect multitasking too, how convenient is it if you just want to close the window and the entire program closes. Meaning if you want to load it back up you gotta open the entire program once again. Yes the superbar is going to make things easier in this terms, but so far we haven't really seen the benefits, but i am sure we will in the feature. Also the fact that most of the programs follow the Apple shortcuts makes things A LOT easier to work with

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Ambroos

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And this comes down to the different philosophies the two OSes have. Windows being traditionally document-centric, and OS X application-centric. Alt+F4 will close the current window but will not necessarily terminate the entire application and related processes.

That said, they could implement something like Windows+F4 that will close all grouped windows.

Ehm... Ever seen Jump Lists? Ever seen Close All Windows? I think you didn't.

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Grand Master

sn00pie

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Windows 7 is a very valiant attempt from Microsoft. There are some things that are better on it then Leopard, but veiwing it in a overall perspective, it's not enough to make me want to leave OS X.

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Grand Master

Ambroos

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We're talking about keyboard shortcuts.

I guess it won't be long before Microsoft adds a keyboard shortcut to the jump lists.

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Shadrack

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This is just a blatant lie, having larger icons is an option, but it doesn't mean that superbar = osx dock. (It also doesn't mean that superbar > osx dock or vice versa, they function in different ways and some people will prefer one over the other)

Have you even tried the superbar and the OSX Dock? I didn't say superbar = OSX Dock, I said it mimics the OS X dock in functionality. If you can't tell, go back to grade school and learn about "compare and contrast."

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Grand Master

Shadrack

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expos? + spaces is what i mean for multitasking. Haven't multiple programs just means you enough ram that can deal with everything...

I disagree that expose and spaces are a better way of "task switching" (I think that is the term you are looking for, because multitasking was well established in Operating Systems back in the 1990's). I prefer the taskbar / MacOS Dock over expose and spaces. But thats the thing, its all a matter of personal preference.

I've tried virtual desktops in Mac OS and Linux and I never really thought that they made anything easier about getting tasks done.

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stokd

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I've been considering jumping ship with my Mac and going back to a PC when Windows 7 comes out...the big things I like about OS X are the UI where everything is unified and all seems to fit, I haven't run into anything as I have in Windows where the interface itself looks outdated and unpolished, everything in OS X just LOOKS nice...although there are still crappy apps out there. I'm mostly concerned about the eye candy, terrible, but true.

I agree that the control panel has become a disaster area, System Preferences in OS X makes it easy to find pretty much everything...going back to fix my parents' computer with Vista is a nightmare trying to find anything in there. I wish Windows 7 would redesign the control panel, get rid of the registry (then again I might not be fully understanding what it's there for...doesn't OS X use plists? Why not try something to that effect?), and make it smaller in size! OS X uses I think 5GB or something? The last I saw the HD requirements for Windows 7 (I understand it still has debugging code) is 16GB! What gives??

I could be wrong on a couple things so feel free to correct me, but as much as I want to go back to Windows for the sake of buying a beefier laptop for the same price or cheaper than a Mac, the OS is going to have to be hands down amazing for me to do so...there are equivalents for most programs out there so everything I can do on a PC I can do on Mac, just with Windows there are a lot more options for both software and hardware should I need to upgrade, which is somewhat limited with Apple.

Just my 2 cents, I'm looking forward to trying a beta of 7 soon enough :)

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Grand Master

Shadrack

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The whole thing with the superbar copying the OS X dock is a little far fetched if you ask me..

Sure, it doesn't share the same feature set...but the whole program launch paradigm is the same. The Mac OS X dock (in all its glory lol) is a combination of a Quick Launch Bar and a Task Bar. The Superbar is a combination of a Quick Launch Bar and a Task Bar. How can people be so blind!! Arghh. Ok, I'm done trying to explain to people how these two are the same. If you cannot see the similarities between the two then I feel sorry for you.

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stokd

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I see the similarities but they've both been that way for a loooong time, not necessarily just with the superbar...the taskbar has always shown running applications and had Quick launch, as well as the menu for all your apps. The OS X dock has, what do you know, also always been the same and with the addition of stacks, makes it a little more like the start menu (being able to access all your applications from the dock like "All Programs").

The big difference, again, is the layout and eye candy. Mac has always had the pretty version along with the menubar at the top of the screen instead of a Start button.

Also, from what I've read about Jump Lists...isn't that the same thing in OS X when you left click and hold the button down on an icon on the dock, and a menu allowing you to quit, etc pops up?

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Grand Master

Denis W. Veteran

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Ehm... Ever seen Jump Lists? Ever seen Close All Windows? I think you didn't.
We're talking about keyboard shortcuts.

Yeah. You'd think I've seen them by now, I didn't just install the beta last week :pinch:

Also a correction to my previous post: I said OS X was app centric and Windows was document centric. The opposite is true.

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Jorkand

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i mean its how you can work when you have multiple things open and how easy it is to organize everything. I like being able to hit my side mouse button and expos? shows all the windows and all i have to do is click the one i want. The fact you get a live preview of the window to helps a lot. Also drag and drop is still a lot better in OSX in my opinion. Being able to navigate through the finder while holding onto something with the left click mouse button is still one of the most under rated features of OSX.

Expose is the only redeeming feature that OSX has. It is extremely cool and I am dying for the day that MS implements something similar. Meanwhile the closest thing windows has to it is VDM's show windows but it comes with the ridiculousness that is multiple desktops (you can do only 1 desktop but its still slow compared to expose).

On the other hand the taskbar (and in windows 7 the superbar) is significantly easier to use than the dock. I can't believe Apple didn't take and run with it more. Even gnome is better than the OSX dock. The dock needs fixing but I doubt the faithful would ever complain.

One thing that I always thought was in expose but apparently isn't is that you can't type in the window when you are zoomed out. Its just a preview.

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Grand Master

Eric Veteran

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You'd think so, but that's sadly not the case. User interface guidelines are just taken more seriously with third party Mac developers.

Something as simple as a universal CMD+Q (Quit application) can't even be found in the Windows world, no matter if you're using 7 or XP.

Um... ALT-F4? It's been there since Windows 3 at least.

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Grand Master

Eric Veteran

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Alt+F4 is not an equivalent to CMD+Q.

If there are multiple windows of the same app, it will only close the current active window. This means that if I have multiple windows of Firefox/Word/Notepad/etc open, it will only close the active window while leaving other windows open. (thus leaving the application running)

Even worse, alt+f4 is even further diminished for applications that minimize to the tray. (Utorrent, Pidgin) Now when you hit alt+f4, they just minimize to the tray. To close Pidgin, you have to use ctrl+q. What?

My CMD+Q shortcut was just one example though. Others system and application wide shortcuts include CMD+, (preferences), CMD+` (cycle windows per application), CMD+M (minimize window), CMD+H (hide). Pretty much every application respects these shortcuts (aside from Adobe, ugh). There's just no comparison really.

It wouldn't be any different in concept, but it would be different in use. Troubleshooting application bugs and crashes are a ton easier when application preferences are stored in an accessible, user friendly folder.

Alt-F4 closes the app, CTRL-F4 closes documents.

CTRL-TAB cycles windows, ALT-TAB cycles applications.

There is no "hide" equivalent on Windows, granted.

And it's the same story: if a Windows app doesn't do these, it's not written to HIG specifications. :)

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