Rapist Josef Fritzl will be locked up in comfort

[Dick Montage]

Well, good to know we are better than the rapist.

Personally - I think it's VERY good to know we CHOOSE to be better. Every single man or woman has that ability inside them. We are not inherrantly better or worse by design. Our thought processes and decisions have evolved into "morals" and every single person has their own set.

Josef Fritzl had his, and he CHOSE to ignore them. He has shown in pre-trial interviews that he knew it was bad/wrong but he did it.

So following our morals and affording a human the rights he is set out to have by our own decree ("human rights") makes us better than someone who chooses to go against his moral codes makes us better? I certainly hope so.

And can we take comfort in being "better"? Not in the least. But we must do it anyway.

[rednekcowboy]

Stereotyped larger "equipment" etc, etc.

These types of crimes make you wonder what society would be like if the punishment matched the violation.

I think the punishment should match the crime! People might think twice if they know it's going to be done to them eventually. I'm sick to death of hearing all about "the rights of the accused" and "prisoners rights." My view is that if you're in prison, you made a choice to break the law, thereby giving up your rights.

This type of crime is one of the most depraved and sickening things I have ever read about. Why shouldn't he be treated EXACTLY like he treated his own family? I don't care why he did it, I don't need to know his thought process, I don't care that he is "sorry" now that he's been convicted. If he was truly sorry, he wouldn't have continued to do it for umpteen years. What choice did he give his victims? Look at the life they had to live!! Screw his rights, he gave them up the fist time he raped his daughter and locked her up in that dank dungeon. Furthermore, I don't know if his wife is still alive or not, but if she is, she deserves the same treatment that he does!! How a mother could ALLOW something like that to happen once, let alone continue on for years, is disgusting.

This man ruined a number of lives with the choices he has made. Do you really think his daughter and her kids are going to EVER have any kind of "normal" life? Of course not. He should not be given the slightest comfort, in fact it should just be the opposite. Any time he is starting to feel comfortable, they should do something to take that away from him until he is nothing but a broken shell of a human being with nothing to live for!

[Richard Hammond]

Hopefully in his padded cell he will begin to even have the slightest inkling as to how his daughter felt being locked up and that will be punisment enough for this freak.

I think the punishment should match the crime! People might think twice if they know it's going to be done to them eventually. I'm sick to death of hearing all about "the rights of the accused" and "prisoners rights." My view is that if you're in prison, you made a choice to break the law, thereby giving up your rights.

This type of crime is one of the most depraved and sickening things I have ever read about. Why shouldn't he be treated EXACTLY like he treated his own family? I don't care why he did it, I don't need to know his thought process, I don't care that he is "sorry" now that he's been convicted. If he was truly sorry, he wouldn't have continued to do it for umpteen years. What choice did he give his victims? Look at the life they had to live!! Screw his rights, he gave them up the fist time he raped his daughter and locked her up in that dank dungeon. Furthermore, I don't know if his wife is still alive or not, but if she is, she deserves the same treatment that he does!! How a mother could ALLOW something like that to happen once, let alone continue on for years, is disgusting.

This man ruined a number of lives with the choices he has made. Do you really think his daughter and her kids are going to EVER have any kind of "normal" life? Of course not. He should not be given the slightest comfort, in fact it should just be the opposite. Any time he is starting to feel comfortable, they should do something to take that away from him until he is nothing but a broken shell of a human being with nothing to live for!

Then we will be no better than he was doing that to his daughter, i am physically sickened by what he did to his own flesh and blood but what gives us the right to condemn the man to the same conditions, being locked up for the rest of his life will give him an insight as to how his daughter felt and coped and that will be punisment enough for this freak.

[trag3dy]

Hopefully in his padded cell he will begin to even have the slightest inkling as to how his daughter felt being locked up and that will be punisment enough for this freak.

It's not padded. He apparently gets a nicer accommodations than most people living in poverty, of whom there are millions. Sad that people who gave up their rights to live in society because they decided to infringe on other peoples rights to live freely get treated better than people who may not have had as many chances in life as others. This guy for the rest of his life won't have to worry about his next meal, or missing a favorite television show or if he'll be cold or warm tonight. Millions of other people do. Sad. Perhaps we should tell them to commit evil crimes like he did so they can live in relative luxury like he is?

[rednekcowboy]

Hopefully in his padded cell he will begin to even have the slightest inkling as to how his daughter felt being locked up and that will be punisment enough for this freak.

Then we will be no better than he was doing that to his daughter, i am physically sickened by what he did to his own flesh and blood but what gives us the right to condemn the man to the same conditions, being locked up for the rest of his life will give him an insight as to how his daughter felt and coped and that will be punisment enough for this freak.

A padded cell is too good for this man. What gives us the right?? HE gave us the right when he chose to commit these crimes and basically putting him up a holiday in with bars on the windows is totally ridiculous. I believe the punishment should fit the crime. He should be made to feel exactly like his daughter and her children felt. He will never feel that staying where he is and being coddled for the rest of his life!!

[Richard Hammond]

A padded cell is too good for this man. What gives us the right?? HE gave us the right when he chose to commit these crimes and basically putting him up a holiday in with bars on the windows is totally ridiculous. I believe the punishment should fit the crime. He should be made to feel exactly like his daughter and her children felt. He will never feel that staying where he is and being coddled for the rest of his life!!

Yes what gives you the right to pass judgement over what he did, yes its sick and deserves everything he gets but you arent his daughter or his family, you are someone sitting on the other side of the world its easy just to sit there and cast judgement over people, if we put him in the same conditions as he did his daughter then we are no better than he is, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth doesnt work well in the real world.

While he wont feel exactly what his daughter did he IS being locked up for the rest of his life, an Mental Institution isnt a holiday camp in no way will he be coddled i think the staff who will be monitoring him will probably treat him like a peice of s***.

[Dick Montage]

A padded cell is too good for this man. What gives us the right?? HE gave us the right when he chose to commit these crimes and basically putting him up a holiday in with bars on the windows is totally ridiculous. I believe the punishment should fit the crime. He should be made to feel exactly like his daughter and her children felt. He will never feel that staying where he is and being coddled for the rest of his life!!

Right...

We find a rapist, and are outraged. There is a knee-jerk reaction and he is tortured just as his victim was by him. Rough Justice FTW!

But we are now as bad as the original rapist.

We find another rapist. How can we be outraged now? We have set our moral standards by using rough justice in the case before?

Basically, society is outraged by such crimes, and rightly so. But if we then act in similar measure, we lose the right to be outraged.

Also, as said above... Mental institutions are NOT holiday camps. Neither are low security prisons. That is an image that the media would like you to believe, as it creates an emotive response.

I have a friend (actually an ex-member of Neowin) who was sectioned. It was NOT a nice place that he was taken AT ALL.

[rednekcowboy]

Yes what gives you the right to pass judgement over what he did, yes its sick and deserves everything he gets but you arent his daughter or his family, you are someone sitting on the other side of the world its easy just to sit there and cast judgement over people, if we put him in the same conditions as he did his daughter then we are no better than he is, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth doesnt work well in the real world.

While he wont feel exactly what his daughter did he IS being locked up for the rest of his life, an Mental Institution isnt a holiday camp in no way will he be coddled i think the staff who will be monitoring him will probably treat him like a peice of s***.

As I've already said, IMHO, HE GAVE UP ANY RIGHTS he had when he committed these crimes and therefore can be judged by society as a whole. An eye for an eye is EXACTLY what society needs today, that way criminals would think twice about there crimes. This sniveling "criminals have rights" attitude is bs. They choose to forego any rights they have when they commit crimes. It's time to stop trying to be so goddam civilized. Why do you think crime rates are rising all the time? Because criminal do whatever they want without fear of retribution! We are fighting a losing war here and it's time we start fighting on their terms, because ours are no longer working!

[Geranium_Z__NL]

we could try setting an example??

like., If u do anything like him.. U wont get comfortable like him.. u will Die a very slowly death

[rednekcowboy]

I am also sure that the argument that we would be just as bad as they were gives very little solace to victims of violent crimes! Would you still feel that way if someone raped and tortured a member of your family?

[Dick Montage]

He may have given up rights (in your eyes) but that doesn't remove our DUTY to him. Moreover our duty to society: to remove him from the general populous, but to uphold the values we have set out.

And before you say "I never set out values" - sorry but you did. By being a citizen of any country you agree to those values. Moreover, the fact you are outraged means that you hold the same values.

Sory, I find your view very childish indeed. Rather than a knee-jerk reaction please consider the bigger picture. We can't just torture or kill people - we are meant to be better than that. Rough Justice doesn't work in the real world. It's for animals, and do we not consider ourselves above animals? If not, then Fritzl did no wrong as animals don't follow moral codes.

I am also sure that the argument that we would be just as bad as they were gives very little solace to victims of violent crimes! Would you still feel that way if someone raped and tortured a member of your family?

Ah.. Now some bright spark always posts this argument...

No, I would NOT feel the same way. I would crave revenge and rough justice. I would know and understand the bigger picture, but would not care.

And this is why we have laws. They protect me also from actually dropping to his level.

[rednekcowboy]

He may have given up rights (in your eyes) but that doesn't remove our DUTY to him. Moreover our duty to society: to remove him from the general populous, but to uphold the values we have set out.

And before you say "I never set out values" - sorry but you did. By being a citizen of any country you agree to those values. Moreover, the fact you are outraged means that you hold the same values.

Sory, I find your view very childish indeed. Rather than a knee-jerk reaction please consider the bigger picture. We can't just torture or kill people - we are meant to be better than that. Rough Justice doesn't work in the real world. It's for animals, and do we not consider ourselves above animals? If not, then Fritzl did no wrong as animals don't follow moral codes.

Ah.. Now some bright spark always posts this argument...

No, I would NOT feel the same way. I would crave revenge and rough justice. I would know and understand the bigger picture, but would not care.

And this is why we have laws. They protect me also from actually dropping to his level.

My view is neither childish or narrowminded. It is not a knee-jerk reaction. The fact that crime rates are rising speaks for themselves. I'm saying the way we do things now does not work. You can't be "civilized" to someone who doesn't understand civilization. Our system is broken and no longer works, you must realize this and needs to be changed. Not only does it not work, it's getting worse. What I am suggesting is a way to fix something that is broken and IMO I believe it would work. We have to treat the animals like animals. What would you suggest we do?

We also have no DUTY to him as he does not follow our "moral code" as you put it. This is why our current system does not work.

[Dick Montage]

The fact that crime rates are rising speaks for themselves.

Yes it does, as "rough justice" is also on the increase!

You can't be "civilized" to someone who doesn't understand civilization.

Fritzl DOES understand civilisation. By his own admission he KNEW what he was doing was wrong.

What I am suggesting is a way to fix something that is broken

By torturing and killing people? Right, that will raise society to an amazing high level...

We have to treat the animals like animals. What would you suggest we do?

I suggest we do not act like animals, we act better than them. There's a start... Are we not striving to be better than animals?

Moreover, again I will state that he is not an animal. You may like to label him as one - but it's simply not apt. Animals are "AMORAL" - they don't have a moral code to live by - they simply do. He was "IMMORAL" - he did have a code to live by and chose to ignore it.

We also have no DUTY to him as he does not follow our "moral code" as you put it.

As "better people" of course we have a duty. If we scrap resonsibilities then we also have to scrap any fabric of morals that we live by. Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other.

you must realize this and needs to be changed.

Please don't tell me what I must realise.

My view is neither childish or narrowminded. It is not a knee-jerk reaction.

Well, then you believe that dropping the way we act down to revengge and vindication will be a step forwards for humanity? You've thought this through - how society will slowly erase laws and simply be self-motivates judge jury and executioner?

---OFF TOPIC---

For what it's worth - you call yourself "redneckcowboy" and so I assume you are mid/southern US? As such, I expect us to have VERY different views on this, and my stating I found your view childish was not meant to imply that you are childish - simply that the view seems very quick to come to mind, but has damning consequences that you may have overlooked.

I don't expect us to agree on this, and that's not a bad thing, per se!

Edited March 23, 2009 by njlouch

[rednekcowboy]

Yes it does, as "rough justice" is also on the increase!

Fritzl DOES understand civilisation. By his own admission he KNEW what he was doing was wrong.

By torturing and killing people? Right, that will raise society to an amazing high level...

I suggest we do not act like animals, we act better than them. There's a start...

As "better people" of course we have a duty. If we scrap resonsibilities then we also have to scrap any fabric of morals that we live by. Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other.

Please don't tell me what I must realise. I don't take such advice from redneck cowboys - which are often seen to have opted out of lawful civilisations. Or does your name imply something else?

Never once did I attack you, or call you names. The fact that you have to call into question my character instead of providing a valid argument shows yours, though.

If Fitzl really believed what he did was wrong, it would have ended a long time ago. The only time he admitted any wrong doing was done to try and receive leniancy in his sentence, which is a common trend among criminals these days!

What would you suggest we do to fix our current system. Incarceration and rehabilitation is not working. Repeat offenses are also on the rise. The numbers speak for themselves. The reason why "rough justice" as you like to call it is on the rise is because people aren't getting the justice they feel they deserve, which also strengthens my argument. The plain and simple fact today is that the punishment does not equal the crime and is threatening the morals and the very fabric of the values and "duties" you hold so dear. What would you suggest we do to fix this?

I'm providing an alternative solution, what are you bringing to the table? Closing your eyes and hoping it'll get better is what got us to this point in the first place.

We also have "rights and responsibilities" to all the people who aren't criminals. Doesn't that outweigh the rights of the criminals??

[rednekcowboy]

There is also a reason for low crime rates in countries not as "civilized" as our own!! It is because punishment is harsh and swift.

[Kudos Veteran]

Never once did I attack you, or call you names...

Just a reminder, your username is "redneckcowboy."

[rednekcowboy]

I realize that, but that is no reason to use that to dispute my reasoning! I could use your avatar to do the same, that just deflects from the topic at hand instead of debating it!

[Dick Montage]

If Fitzl really believed what he did was wrong, it would have ended a long time ago. The only time he admitted any wrong doing was done to try and receive leniancy in his sentence, which is a common trend among criminals these days!

You don't know that to be fact. His medical examiners have states that he did know right and wrong but chose to ignore it. As such - NOT ANIMAL.

What would you suggest we do to fix our current system. Incarceration and rehabilitation is not working. Repeat offenses are also on the rise. The numbers speak for themselves. The reason why "rough justice" as you like to call it is on the rise is because people aren't getting the justice they feel they deserve, which also strengthens my argument.

FEEL they deserve. As I said when you questioned how I would feel if it were my family - what we FEEL we deserve, and what we will get in a civilised society are different things. This feeling of wanting an eye for an eye is part of the self perpetuation problem, not the solution.

We also have "rights and responsibilities" to all the people who aren't criminals. Doesn't that outweigh the rights of the criminals??

And how does treating a human as a human negate these?

There is also a reason for low crime rates in countries not as "civilized" as our own!! It is because punishment is harsh and swift.

And also because there are fewer laws to break, as such there is less crime? We condemn Iran for defending their own moral beliefs when arresting people for introducing western cultures - even though their moral beliefs as a whole are to not follow such trends. We condemn Talebanni traditions of the way they rule over women, hiding them from society. But now we should follow their "harsh and swift" punishments?

I'm providing an alternative solution, what are you bringing to the table? Closing your eyes and hoping it'll get better is what got us to this point in the first place.

I am not "closing my eyes and hoping it will get better" - I simply do not think that by using "an eye for an eye" measures will improve things. I personally am divided as to where I stand on the death penalty... I cannot agree 100% with it - but do agree that if someone is beyond rehabilitation - then what use are they? But that is a selfish view that doesn't help either. However, let's be honest - rehabilitation has not been part of the prison system for a while now - it's simply become a place to put people. Moreover, if Fritlz were to be rehabilitated and repents - would anyone forgive? Not likely.

Never once did I attack you, or call you names. The fact that you have to call into question my character instead of providing a valid argument shows yours, though.

I re-read what I wrote and understood that it came across the wrong way, and not how I meant it - and so I re-wrote it to better express my feeling. Shame you read the original, as it was poorly written and did come across as offensive, which was not the tone I was aiming for. I apologize for that, and urge you to read the updated.

[trag3dy]

Fritzl DOES understand civilisation. By his own admission he KNEW what he was doing was wrong.

The problem here is that he only admitted what he was doing was wrong after he was caught, after doing it for 24 years. If he really thought what he was doing was wrong it would not have gone on for that long. It wouldn't have happened to begin with. By his own admission what he was doing was wrong and he didn't care in the slightest. Why should he be afforded any of the rights he denied not just his daughter but 7 other children as well?

It's just a shame that he's as old as he is because he won't live long enough to fully atone for his crimes.

[rednekcowboy]

Yes it does, as "rough justice" is also on the increase!

Fritzl DOES understand civilisation. By his own admission he KNEW what he was doing was wrong.

By torturing and killing people? Right, that will raise society to an amazing high level...

I suggest we do not act like animals, we act better than them. There's a start... Are we not striving to be better than animals?

Moreover, again I will state that he is not an animal. You may like to label him as one - but it's simply not apt. Animals are "AMORAL" - they don't have a moral code to live by - they simply do. He was "IMMORAL" - he did have a code to live by and chose to ignore it.

As "better people" of course we have a duty. If we scrap resonsibilities then we also have to scrap any fabric of morals that we live by. Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other.

Please don't tell me what I must realise.

Well, then you believe that dropping the way we act down to revengge and vindication will be a step forwards for humanity? You've thought this through - how society will slowly erase laws and simply be self-motivates judge jury and executioner?

---OFF TOPIC---

For what it's worth - you call yourself "redneckcowboy" and so I assume you are mid/southern US? As such, I expect us to have VERY different views on this, and my stating I found your view childish was not meant to imply that you are childish - simply that the view seems very quick to come to mind, but has damning consequences that you may have overlooked.

I don't expect us to agree on this, and that's not a bad thing, per se!

The fact that you are ignorant as to all the definitions of a "redneck" and how it refers to myself is just the reason you should not refer to it. A redneck in the original sense of the word refers to workers who would work a field and get a sunburn on the back of their necks and is a very old term. I play goal in Ice hockey and it refers to the red light behind the net when a goal is scored. The "cowboy" comes from years of living and working in Western Canada. My views are not childish and are shared by many. I agree that we will not agree on this subject, which, as you said, is OK. I believe in keeping our current judicial system and policing system in place, just simply removing the rights of the criminals involved, which, I believe, would not degenerate our society, but vastly improve it for those of us who chose to live by it's moral and legal code.

[rednekcowboy]

Countries not as "civilized" as ours do not have lesser laws. Actually they have the same basic ones in regards to murder, rape, theft, assault, etc. And the majority of those countries have a greater population, to the point of over-population, yet have a significantly lower crime rate.

Their "eye for an eye" treatment seems to be working quite well and is maybe something we should look.

[Dick Montage]

The fact that you are ignorant as to all the definitions of a "redneck" and how it refers to myself is just the reason you should not refer to it. A redneck in the original sense of the word refers to workers who would work a field and get a sunburn on the back of their necks and is a very old term. I play goal in Ice hockey and it refers to the red light behind the net when a goal is scored. The "cowboy" comes from years of living and working in Western Canada. My views are not childish and are shared by many. I agree that we will not agree on this subject, which, as you said, is OK.

You are posting on a global forum - you must understand the connotations that your name projects. Connotations shared by the majority (right or wrong). In fact I am pretty sure that you knew these when choosing your name, as you don't seem ignorant.

I picked up on those connotations wrongly. That was poor judgement possible - but a long long way fro making me ignorant.

I believe in keeping our current judicial system and policing system in place, just simply removing the rights of the criminals involved, which, I believe, would not degenerate our society, but vastly improve it for those of us who chose to live by it's moral and legal code.

I agree - but I think you overestimate the rights they are afforded. They don't live in nice challets on a holiday resport. Mental prisons are horrible, desperate places generally. As are the high security ones.

The low-sec prisons are a joke. My brother used to deal cannibis, and was incarcertated in a low-sec, and it was pathetic. But the whole system in regards to low-risk crimes certainly needs a re-think. It should be much harsher I agree.

But the idea of letting someone act out their revenge on a criminal is not something I can ever stoop down to. What you said a page back is this:

Why shouldn't he be treated EXACTLY like he treated his own family?

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot "keep our current judicial system and policing system in place" (your words - which I take to mean "having laws and society following said laws, otherwise there will be punishments") along side "Go on let's have this rapist raped and abused in the name of justice".

[hanko panko]

Didn't we forget something?

Shouldn't our systems focuss on the victims here?

All our attention should be on the future well-being of the victims. They should get all the help they need to make the best of their lives. That's going to cost a lot because a lot of them will need treatment and compensation for the rest of their lifes. They should be absolutely safe that the offender is never to be freed again or to be in a position to harrass them again.

We shouldn't spend to much energy in finding all kinds of ways to punish the offender. He should be stowed away in a safe, sober and isolated place. The offender will have to transfer all of his possesions and incomes (safe for a part that would belong to other family members) to his victims and should (if possible) be put to forced labour for the rest of his live.

[Dick Montage]

Shouldn't our systems focuss on the victims here?

Systems are in place to focus on the victims. That is not the topic of the thread. The topic is the treatment of Josef Fritzl.

They should get all the help they need to make the best of their lives. That's going to cost a lot because a lot of them will need treatment and compensation for the rest of their lifes. They should be absolutely safe that the offender is never to be freed again or to be in a position to harrass them again.

Which is how things currently are.

We shouldn't spend to much energy in finding all kinds of ways to punish the offender. He should be stowed away in a safe, sober and isolated place. The offender will have to transfer all of his possesions and incomes (safe for a part that would belong to other family members) to his victims and should (if possible) be put to forced labour for the rest of his live.

That is something I can certainly get behind for "black and white" cases such as this. As for transferral of posessions/incomes - a lot of victims wouldn't want it, would want no association - so it should go to state to fund such help for the families.

[rednekcowboy]

You are posting on a global forum - you must understand the connotations that your name projects. Connotations shared by the majority (right or wrong). In fact I am pretty sure that you knew these when choosing your name, as you don't seem ignorant.

I picked up on those connotations wrongly. That was poor judgement possible - but a long long way fro making me ignorant.

I agree - but I think you overestimate the rights they are afforded. They don't live in nice challets on a holiday resport. Mental prisons are horrible, desperate places generally. As are the high security ones.

The low-sec prisons are a joke. My brother used to deal cannibis, and was incarcertated in a low-sec, and it was pathetic. But the whole system in regards to low-risk crimes certainly needs a re-think. It should be much harsher I agree.

But the idea of letting someone act out their revenge on a criminal is not something I can ever stoop down to. What you said a page back is this:

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot "keep our current judicial system and policing system in place" (your words - which I take to mean "having laws and society following said laws, otherwise there will be punishments") along side "Go on let's have this rapist raped and abused in the name of justice".

I never said that a person wronged should dole out revenge. I said the same should be done to the guilty as they did to the victim. I was not as clear on this fact though and I apologize for that. What I meant by that was that he destroyed 8 lives through the course of his actions and hence, his life should be destroyed, not by incarceration in some facility where he has a room with a tv and a personal computer to keep in touch with the outside world and access to a kitchen to make his own meals. This hardly sounds like the type of place you are describing. His life should be ended. These poor people have no chance at a normal life and the simple stats are that more than one of these children will probably grow up and assault someone like they were (maybe not to the extreme of imprisonment and torture). The punishment does not fit the crime. By taking his life, it's an "eye for an eye" punishment because he took their's and sends a message that there will be severe consequences for this type of behavior.