Neowin - Should it still be in a Mac users bookmarks?

[evo_spook]

I think it should be a bookmark. The Mac area of the forums here are great, and there are always ppl (like giga) that are helpful and quick to answer

Maybe thats the answer, stick to the mac and general forums and avoid the front page news area.

[gigapixels Veteran]

it's called neowin for a reason...

Because it's full of win.

Frankly, does it really matter? People who don't have a clue about what they're talking about will either be strongly pro-Apple or pro-Microsoft. People who know what they are talking about will now that each OS has its ups and downs, and neither is truly better than the other.

Shallow people are the ones who believe every word spoken in an Apple commercial, or think that all Mac users are gay and stubborn.

Precisely. (Y)

[the evn show]

I disagree with the idea that just because two (or ten) things have different strengths doesn't mean one can't be better than the other. I just don't think that <X> being better than <Y> means that some people can't prefer <x> over <y> even if I'm a <y> man.

Breast v ass, rock v rap, Mac vs Windows, Saks v Walmart.

I'd argue that the best drinks are either Hennessy Paradis or Glenmorangie 25-year (certainly the best I've ever been exposed to) but that doesn't mean you can't feel the same way about a glass of water or a warm Guinness. In some situations I might even agree with you, and the same is true about Mac OS X v Windows v *Linux v *BSD v BeOS v…

My complaints are with clueless people that don't even realize it or people intentionally spreading misinformation. I don't care if you disagree with me, but when you're full of **** then you lower the level of discourse to playground "my dad is richer than yours" nonsense.

I don't expect you to be able to pay your bills writing software for my preferred OS if you don't like it, but if you're going to call out it's faults you'd better be accurate. IMO people complaining about non-issues simply draw attention from the real problems and they make it take that much longer before they get resolved.

EDIT:

Also, people that can't find something to dislike about the stuff they like aren't trustworthy. In the case of my favourite drinks: I dislike that it's 2-days pay to buy a bottle and that it's a pain to find either at the bar. In the case of Mac OS X - I have dozens of UI complaints, a bit of a hatred for C-like languages (including Objective-C), the ghetto-state of it's ruby install and the cocoa/ruby bridge, under-powered firewall control panel, hardware bundling (even if I generally like apple hardware), and Apple's retail experience has been sub standard the last year or so.

[jonhapimp]

Frankly, does it really matter? People who don't have a clue about what they're talking about will either be strongly pro-Apple or pro-Microsoft. People who know what they are talking about will now that each OS has its ups and downs, and neither is truly better than the other.

Shallow people are the ones who believe every word spoken in an Apple commercial, or think that all Mac users are gay and stubborn.

X1000

[Guest jgrodri]

keep it short:

to read the news and forums, most certainly yes

to read (many of the) editorials and nows posts comments, not so much.

I am yet to see an apple news comments section that doesn't turn into an anti-apple troll den.

[Sam Symons Veteran]

'tis still in my bookmarks, and I'm a Mac user... though that's for more obvious reasons...

[jonhapimp]

'tis still in my bookmarks, and I'm a Mac user... though that's for more obvious reasons...

but but but this is neoWIN

Impossible

[Miuku.]

When Neowin sanctioned Apple Warez it went off my bookmarks for a long time - irony is, if Microsoft had been in the same position you can guarantee the changes would have never gone through. (Considering how fast certain people were ready to bend over Microsoft's demands over Autopatcher).

And please don't try the "but they might have bought it from the store defence.

[gigapixels Veteran]

When Neowin sanctioned Apple Warez it went off my bookmarks for a long time - irony is, if Microsoft had been in the same position you can guarantee the changes would have never gone through. (Considering how fast certain people were ready to bend over Microsoft's demands over Autopatcher).

And please don't try the "but they might have bought it from the store defence.

But Neowin does not and has never sanctioned the piracy of OS X. Allowing discussion of OSx86 does not do that, regardless of what you might think. The fact of the matter is that it is not illegal to run Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware and we do not allow discussion on how to illegally obtain OS X. If Apple had any legal ground to stop people from installing OS X on non-Apple hardware, we would certainly disallow it just as quick as we had to move with Autopatcher.

You can believe what you'd like, but I can assure you your claim here is not true.

[Miuku.]

If Apple had any legal ground to stop people from installing OS X on non-Apple hardware, we would certainly disallow it just as quick as we had to move with Autopatcher.

Autopatcher was no more or less illegal than it is to run OSx86 yet it didn't take you long to turn the sleigh around on that case.

Not hard to see which company gets the preferred treatment, eh?

[gigapixels Veteran]

Autopatcher was no more or less illegal than it is to run OSx86 yet it didn't take you long to turn the sleigh around on that case.

Not hard to see which company gets the preferred treatment, eh?

AutoPatcher actually is illegal as it redistributes Microsoft's patches and software without their consent. Please, read up on the issue before taking sides.

[Miuku.]

AutoPatcher actually is illegal as it redistributes Microsoft's patches and software without their consent. Please, read up on the issue before taking sides.

Which only breaks the EULA - I did read up on the issue back extensively and had lengthy debates on the matter.

Doesn't really matter - just shows what sides you guys have taken.

[gigapixels Veteran]

Which only breaks the EULA - I did read up on the issue back extensively and had lengthy debates on the matter.

Doesn't really matter - just shows what sides you guys have taken.

Distributing anybody's software without their express permission is illegal. It's known as piracy, regardless of the price of said software.

[Sam Symons Veteran]

but but but this is neoWIN

Impossible

I like to think the second half of that word implies "Win!", as opposed to Windows :p

[the evn show]

Distributing anybody's software without their express permission is illegal. It's known as piracy, regardless of the price of said software.

If I take a copy of the Mac Office test drive and modify the binaries so that they won't expire after 30 days would you consider that piracy or "just an EULA violation" but otherwise not an issue?

[gigapixels Veteran]

If I take a copy of the Mac Office test drive and modify the binaries so that they won't expire after 30 days would you consider that piracy or just an EULA violation?

I don't know the intricacies of piracy laws, so I can't say for sure. To me, it sounds like piracy, as you're getting a full product when you never paid for it. If you redistribute those binaries, it definitely is piracy.

I'm not an authority on this matter though, so I could be wrong. One thing I am sure of, from what I've read, is redistributing software without permission is piracy.

[the evn show]

I don't know the intricacies of piracy laws, so I can't say for sure. To me, it sounds like piracy, as you're getting a full product when you never paid for it.

Copyright law has absolutely nothing to do with payment. An artist (or any copyright holder) might agree to sell me the right to make a copy of a copyright protected work and I might ignore the terms of that contract but that's not necessarily copyright infringement.

I remember there was a "private" thread where we discussed copyright in detail - and my offer to split legal fees to get an authoritative answer still stands.

For the record, the above would be copyright infringement for exactly the same reasons that using Mac OS X on a non-Mac is copyright infringement. In both cases a party (microsoft, apple) has created a work (mac office, mac os x) that is protected by copyright. By default copyright law (and certain parts of contract law governing EULAs) prevents me from making or using that software. Both parties agree to grant me a license to use their software provided I follow the conditions laid out in the EULA. The EULA is the contract by which I am granted permission to use the software - without it I have no right to use it.

When I break the conditions of the EULA (don't modify the binaries of mac office, not allowed to use it for more than 30 days, or installing mac os x) I forefiet my license to use the software. Without the permission to use a copy of the software we revert to the original state of afffairs - and that is me not being allowed to use the software.

It doesn't matter if I paid for Mac OS X or not just like it doesn't matter if I buy Microsoft Windows Vista Home version and want to use it in VMWare (only the ultimate edition was licensed for use in a virtual machine) - no license means no right to use it. At that point its no different from just hitting up whatever website it is people use to pirate software these days and downloading a copy.

bull****? Absolutely - but there are a lot of things that have become illegal even though they shouldn't be.

I'm not an expert by any stretch but I did spend a few years learning about copyright law in university because I think our current system is completely busted but and I wanted to know exactly how broken it is. The only successful challenge to an EULA that I'm familiar with—that is relevant to this topic—is that you have the right to refuse an EULA and return software for a refund even if you've opened the package and tried to install it. You occasionally hear of Linux advocates seeking their "windows refund" because of this ruling. Refusing to agree to an EULA doesn't give you a right to do anything you want with software - it gives you no right to do anything with it (you don't just lose "support" for software when you violate your part of the EULA, they all say "your right to use the software is revoked if you don't live up to the terms").

I'm not an authority on this matter though, so I could be wrong. One thing I am sure of, from what I've read, is redistributing software without permission is piracy.

That's correct. if you create copies of a copyright protected work (or even just part of one: like people in this forum posting copies of icons taken from Mac OS X) without permission then you have committed copyright infringement.

EDIT

To those that might think I'm arguing that Neowin's policy is "wrong": I'm not.

The policies about copyright infringement are similar to the ones about flaming and swearing and have absolutely nothing to do with the laws of the land. When you host a private forum you get to set the rules - and here the staff has decided that unlicensed copies of Mac OS X are fine (so long as you claim to have given apple money for it at some point) but that unlicensed copies of Windows or Office are not fine. It's their house and they get to make up whatever rules they like. I don't have to agree with the reasoning in order to respect their right to set the rules.

Edited June 13, 2009 by evn.

[+shift. MVC]

IMO being a bystander of the Windows versus Mac OS X discussion, much of the "heat" from the Windows community has generally been on Apple's rather blatant bashing of Microsoft's Windows 7 at WWDC 2009.

Edited June 13, 2009 by shift.

[Calum Veteran]

IMO being a rather bystander of the Windows versus Mac OS X discussion, much of the "heat" from the Windows community has generally been on Apple's rather blatant bashing of Microsoft's Windows 7 at WWDC 2009.

:yes:

That's the only front page article I know of/can remember which had a lot of Apple bashing, but that was completely deserved by Apple.

[Quillz]

:yes:

That's the only front page article I know of/can remember which had a lot of Apple bashing, but that was completely deserved by Apple.

Exactly. Apple's corporate attitude and advertising seems to go out of its way to attack Microsoft at every opportunity they get. I'm sorry, but that only serves to portray Apple as an immature corporation that can't handle its low market share.

[ienhz]

I didn't find the forums here too bad when I still had my MacBook. MacRumors is one of the worst sites on the web and I pity anyone who takes anything said on their forums seriously. The amount of trouble people go through to protect Apple or bash Microsoft is hilarious.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Neowin's (small) Mac users community is much more sensible in my opinion than the collection of fanbois found on pure Mac boards.

The trick is to ignore the anti-Apple trolls on here.

So does Neowin still belong in a Mac user's bookmarks? Definitely yes.

[iigloo]

Neowin's (small) Mac users community is much more sensible in my opinion than the collection of fanbois found on pure Mac boards.

Agreed, that is why I've always only had the Neowin - Macintosh Customization & Support section bookmarked. Works really well, I didn't even know there was that many anti-Apple trolls here. Never knew it to be an issue :)

[evo_spook]

well.... it look like its not only the mac section that gets hit by the new neowin dumbing down.

I've just read the Opera thread and to be honest I don't know if I have read anything quite patethic.

Opera has a valid claim, but as its against some of the posters beloved MS that they are calling for boycotts! (especially funny is the ones that defend Opera with quite well thought out posts are getting called Trolls)

These are the people that slam mac users for being to defensive of their platform!

These are the same, who say I hate Apple and so won't buy anything from them, what, Apple and Microsfot are both tools like a screwdriver, why try and put something personal to it.

[Binary]

Just bookmark the Mac/News forums sections.

Don't bother with the front page news or the editorials. They are chalk full of windows fanboy idiots.

Just read the last few Articles about Apple. Even when nothing but positive could be said for Apple, they find some way to post negativity and turn the comments section into a flame war.

Like, how can safari topping 11 million dls in 3 days, or the iPhone selling out pre-orders be anything but good?

I agree Apple has had their share of bashing windows, and they deserve to be called out on that - but really, there is no need for the Apple bashing on EVERY damned article posted about them.

Blah.