Health care workers refuse to take H1N1 vaccine

[_bobcat_ Veteran]

Conspiracy theories belong here :)

I see that religion is sneaking into the topic here - we have another thread for that. Please stay on topic.

[megamanXplosion]

Leonard Horowitz sells bottles of water for $20 which, "The instant you touch or taste it, every one of your billions of cells gets super-charged with the essence of LOVE." In other words, he's a scam artist who views sickness as profit.

I'll bite. Even if Ol'Len was selling love water for $20, who's making the real profit from sickness?

Flu shots are for people with vulnerable immune systems, there is zero, none, 0, reason for any normal healthy adult or child to mindlessly volunteer for a worthless vaccine that has had practically no clinical trailing (well in Poland, where it was tested on the homeless (resulting in a lawsuit) and something like 13 of the 120 people died), and for which governments have granted immunity from prosecution the vaccine manufacturers so if you do grow a penis from your forehead, you can't sue anyone. And you wonder why you're called sheeple.

You missed my point. I have no problem with people who seek to improve their lives by improving the lives of others through the synthesis of medicines, vaccines, and so on. I think people should be rewarded well when they do well. My point was that people like Leonard Horowitz actively repudiates critical thought and has taken it upon himself to give bad medical advice for the purposing of making people sick so he can profit from their misery. My other point was that people like Leonard Horowitz should never be cited as though he were a reliable source of information.

Your second paragraph was nothing more than a pointless screed that ruined your credibility. First, the Poland incident cannot be construed as a legitimate clinical trial. The results were meaningless. Proper clinical trials are conducted on healthy immune systems, which poor people are less likely to have, hence the investigation of severe negligence. Second, the Poland incident involved one particular kind of vaccine for avian flu (H5N1), not swine flu (H1N1). Third, you cannot legitimately construe the results of that particular vaccine as indicative of other bird flu vaccines. Fourth, you cannot legitimately construe the results of that particular vaccine as indicative of any swine flu vaccine.

And the attack on my character ("you wonder why you're called sheeple") was uncalled for.

[Subject Delta]

true. but life has a price then. they don't want caner patients to end their lives. why? they want you to live long as possible to make more $$$. medicine is only a profit industry

What an absolute load of rubbish

[CheeseFart]

if vaccines don't work, then what happened to smallpox?

[chrisj1968]

I rest my case. there has been NO conference about a flu vaccine.

read the PDF, and if you don't see my point, then ignore me.

I've attached said PDF to this post

international_swine_flu_conference.pdf

[shockz]

if vaccines don't work, then what happened to smallpox?

This.

Filling up our body with chemicals? Do you not take Asprin when you get a headache, or Cough Medicine for a sore throat?

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

...

Filling up our body with chemicals? Do you not take Asprin when you get a headache, or Cough Medicine for a sore throat?

Or drink water when you're thirsty?

[megamanXplosion]

Chris, that conference has already taken place.

[O.G]

FluZone is the vaccine used for normal seasonal flu. In the top right paragraph, on the FluZone information sheet (pic posted prev), it states very clearly that the FluZone vaccine contains 15mcg of IVR-148 (h1n1). That means people who normally receive a seasonal flu vaccine are also receiving a small amount of a vaccine candidate, and are being injected with the h1n1 virus.

per .5 ml dose

15mcg Influenza

15mcg H1N1

15mcg H3N2

15mcg B/Brisbane/60

Edited September 24, 2009 by O.G

[lamminium]

BOB.. GOD gave us our immune systems. our immune systems are here to help us. we aren't PC's with an extra space in our bodies for a harddrive or genetically engineered components. Now GOD as you said gave us medicine, but not all medicine is of GOD.

my pastor taught me: all that is of GOD is good. all that is good isn't of GOD. he broke it down as, everything that God gave us is good for us. all that we create isn't always good for us. we manipulate DNA to create people, messing with HIS blueprints and use science to create WMD's and kill people. in the 1990's the government finally admitted to testing our citizens for radiation tests back in the 40's and 50's.

injecting radiation into our bodies, having people sit near nuclear explosions.. so medicine doesn't care about you

You let a man with no knowledge in medicine tell you what to think about medicine. Nice.

Vaccines may not work 100% but when they're approved for public distribution, they have been vigorously tested and confirmed safe for a majority of people. One would be naive to think that people come up with a vaccine formula and roll it out to the public the next day or that vaccines were made to prolong our lives to generate profits for the manufacturers.

Your comment on "chemical" really shows you have no idea what "chemical" really means.

"Chemical" (noun) refers to "any substance used in or resulting from a reaction involving changes to atoms or molecules" (definition).

In that sense, anything you touch, see, eat and drink are chemicals, including water.

"Injecting radiation into your body" is the last resource for cancer treatment. If we had a better way to do it, we would have (thankfully we've learnt more and more about the molecular mechanism of cancer, so a more effective treatment is poised to be underway).

The field of medicine was invented to preserve lives. Regardless of the economic involvement in our time, the primary purpose of medicine is to save lives. The companies that profit from producing drugs have nought to do with medicine.

If you think medicine does not care about you, do not see a doctor or buy anything of medical benefits. Next time you come down with something (like gastric ulcer), just let prayers help you. Good luck.

[TrueMonolith]

if vaccines don't work, then what happened to smallpox?

couldnt agree more.

[zhangm Supervisor]

This.

Filling up our body with chemicals? Do you not take Asprin when you get a headache, or Cough Medicine for a sore throat?

Not to mention Polio.

A bunch of common infectious diseases have also been knocked down by vaccination.

Anyway, I suppose few people here understand how vaccines are made, and what they do.

At birth, your immune system is pathetic. It needs to experience real-world pathogens in order to develop familiarity with specific antigens. Exposure is the key here, since it builds up immunity to future infections of the same organism, or similar organisms.

A vaccine is made from inactivated (either genetically truncated virus that can't replicate, or heat-inactivated virus, or viral epitopes, e. g. pieces of virus proteins) virus that serves as primers for your immune system to gain experience. Your immune cells sample the epitope and create antibodies to recognize and attack the viral analogue in the vaccine. The point is that you give your immune system experience without any actual risk of infection.

I'm going to guess that 25 micrograms of some organomercuric agent is nothing compared to annual mercury exposure. It isn't like your body can't deal with toxic metals (mercuric reductase, anyone?).

Also, for those who think that the immune system is a perfect godly gift, and that young healthy individuals won't get sick...want to explain to me the demographics of the 1918 Spanish Flu?

[O.G]

You let a man with no knowledge in medicine tell you what to think about medicine. Nice.

Vaccines may not work 100% but when they're approved for public distribution, they have been vigorously tested and confirmed safe for a majority of people. One would be naive to think that people come up with a vaccine formula and roll it out to the public the next day or that vaccines were made to prolong our lives to generate profits for the manufacturers.

You should try reading the thread. The vaccine being proposed for swine flu has not been vigorously tested or confirmed safe, and the approval is being done via fast tracking based only on the performance if a similar vaccine. The widespread effects and effectiveness will not be known until it has been administered. That's direct from the World Health Organization. Why do you think the manufacturers have been granted immunity from prosecution? It's an untested vaccine.

Who's naive?

I'm going to guess that 25 micrograms of some organomercuric agent is nothing compared to annual mercury exposure. It isn't like your body can't deal with toxic metals (mercuric reductase, anyone?).

10mcg is considered a very high dosage when talking about enviromental exposure to mercury. 1 or 2 mcg is still high but the average. 25 is just stupid, and thats in one dose.

Edited September 24, 2009 by O.G

[lamminium]

You should try reading the thread. The vaccine being proposed for swine flu has not been tested, and the approval is being done via fast tracking. The widespread effects and effectiveness will not be known until it has been administered. That's direct from the World Health Organization. Why do you think the manufacturers have been granted immunity from prosecution? It's an untested vaccine.

Who's naive?

I prefer to see it for myself: http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/gu.../candidates/en/

The vaccines are still "candidates", meaning they have to undergo testing approval. Fast tracking does not mean they just take the vaccines and throw at you without at least making sure it will work.

As for immunity, it is necessary because some people may react negatively to the vaccine. No lab testing can cater for all the possibilities but when the vaccine is out, it's certain that it'll do its job for most people. You don't want someone to sue the manufacturers to bankruptcy because of a person's peculiar reaction towards the drug that works as intended in many others.

[O.G]

Then you need to read it again. From the horses mouth.

Time constraints mean that clinical data at the time when pandemic vaccines are first administered will inevitably be limited. Further testing of safety and effectiveness will need to take place after administration of the vaccine has begun.

-WHO

If WHO decides there is a pandemic, the normal routine of testing is simply cast aside. They worry about the consequence after the vaccine has been dished out. That's why the vaccine manufacturers demanded immunity in a pandemic, so that if there were serious issues resulting from the use of an untested drug on the mass population, the drug company would not have to answer to any legal action against them.

[zhangm Supervisor]

10mcg is considered a very high dosage when talking about enviromental exposure to mercury. 1 or 2 mcg is still high but the average. 25 is just stupid, and thats in one dose.

25 micrograms is about the amount that you would consume with your food in one month, by a conservative estimate. The estimated daily consumption varies from 1.4 micrograms to 0.8 micrograms. If you like your fish, this can be significantly higher. This doesn't consider environmental exposure.

[O.G]

25 micrograms is about the amount that you would consume with your food in one month, by a conservative estimate. The estimated daily consumption varies from 1.4 micrograms to 0.8 micrograms. If you like your fish, this can be significantly higher. This doesn't consider environmental exposure.

The EPA guidlines, which are by no means strict, state the maximum safe level for an adult is 0.1mcg/kg. 25mcg would be 4 times the recommended safe limit for an adult.

[lamminium]

Then you need to read it again. From the horses mouth.

-WHO

If WHO decides there is a pandemic, the normal routine of testing is simply cast aside. They worry about the consequence after the vaccine has been dished out. That's why the vaccine manufacturers demanded immunity in a pandemic, so that if there were serious issues resulting from the use of an untested drug on the mass population, the drug company would not have to answer to any legal action against them.

So you think they'll just give you any random vaccine without at least a rationale for its approval and ultimately, worldwide distribution? Lab testing, even if just limited, helps select the working strains. You clearly see they're subjecting the vaccine donations through a screening process. It means that even with the knowledge and past success of vaccine production, we still have to make sure that the ones selected are the best possible. You make it sound like the health authority just dishes out anything just to do their job. That's what annoys me.

Of course, like you, I am sick of the organisations that try to exploit people's healthcare for their personal gains. However, if it is an international collaboration, there's no good reason to be sceptical. If there were a better solution than a vaccine, it would have been delivered.

Edited September 24, 2009 by lamchopz

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

The EPA guidlines, which are by no means strict, state the maximum safe level for an adult is 0.1mcg/kg. 25mcg would be 4 times the recommended safe limit for an adult.

Per day, you don't get vaccines that often.

And even then, it's a different type of mercury that is removed from the body fairly quickly.

[O.G]

So you think they'll just give you any random vaccine without at least a rationale for its approval and ultimately, worldwide distribution?

That is exactly what WHO said they could do, indeed it would be expected to happen in a pandemic. There is your rational.

They've sent vaccines off to Africa tainted with AIDS, accidentally, that's pretty random wouldn't you say? How the hell do I know what's in a vaccine. It's simple, mercury makes you stupid, it's a fact. If you trot off to get some untested vaccine that you don't need because of an advert you seen on tv, or worse, by force, well what the hell, you'll be doing the rest of us a favour.

Edited September 24, 2009 by O.G

[lamminium]

They've sent vaccines off to Africa tainted with AIDS, accidentally, that's pretty random wouldn't you say? How the hell do I know what's in a vaccine. It's simple, mercury makes you stupid, it's a fact. If you trot off to get some untested vaccine that you don't need because of an advert you seen on tv, or worse, by force, well what the hell, you'll be doing the rest of us a favour.

Firstly, the selection process is not final. Wonder why it takes so long?

Secondly, your country's health authority is in charge of distributing the vaccine, and with it, the responsibility to ensure it is effective prior to making it public.

Thirdly, you decide whether or not you'll be vaccinated. If you don't trust the vaccine, don't get vaccinated. Especially after the outcome of the H1N1 outbreak, the virus was shown to exert mostly mild effects on healthy individuals. Do you think this vaccination would be compulsory? There is a choice and it's yours.

That is exactly what WHO said they could do, indeed it would be expected to happen in a pandemic. There is your rational.

Terribly flawed. A vaccine would be not distributed if it didn't show at least a working capacity. That they "could" do is grossly misinterpreted: in response to a deadly pandemic, you don't send random vaccines hoping to do their job. Even if short-phased, the internal testing has to take place to ensure that what they're giving out does what it's intended - to what extent and what consequences would entail are post-distribution concerns. Of course it only happens in a pandemic that kills off the world at a rapid rate.

Edited September 24, 2009 by lamchopz

[O.G]

There seems to be growing concern over the implementation of forced vaccination. This is really what is the issue here. Of why there are talks of mass vaccination of the public, on the authority of WHO, by force if necessary. Surely you would agree that the whole swine flu non-epidemic was completely blown out of proportion by the media. It was as if it was meant to be worse, but never quite happened. It failed. So, becuase it failed, the end result has yet to be achieved, the tactics need to change. No one is buying the swine flu crap anymore and it's looking like the only way they will get lots of people to take a vaccination, is to force them.

Now there is a whole great big story about how the financing between the tax payer and big pharma works, and about how there was hardly any stocks being held by governments "in case of emergency" and how this was seen by pharma as a market to be exploited if only the pharma could show the gov it would be in their best interests to hold massive quantities of emergency drugs paid for by you and me, and if need be perform a demonstration and convince the public such expenses were justified. Swine Flu, kerching. Pharma is a business, they are not in it for your best interests, if they were, it would be free.

[bjoswald]

I just got an Influenza shot yesterday, and the nurses there were ranting on and on about the dangers of the H1N1 shot and the Pneumonia shot. The nurse that was taking care of me looked me straight in the eye and said: "Trust me, you don't want it." Now, I'm not big into conspiracy theories and what not, but if a nurse tells me not to take a shot being offered, then I'm going to take her word for it.

[lamminium]

There seems to be growing concern over the implementation of forced vaccination. This is really what is the issue here. Of why there are talks of mass vaccination of the public, on the authority of WHO, by force if necessary. Surely you would agree that the whole swine flu non-epidemic was completely blown out of proportion by the media. It was as if it was meant to be worse, but never quite happened. It failed. So, becuase it failed, the end result has yet to be achieved, the tactics need to change. No one is buying the swine flu crap anymore and it's looking like the only way they will get lots of people to take a vaccination, is to force them.

Now there is a whole great big story about how the financing between the tax payer and big pharma works, and about how there was hardly any stocks being held by governments "in case of emergency" and how this was seen by pharma as a market to be exploited if only the pharma could show the gov it would be in their best interests to hold massive quantities of emergency drugs paid for by you and me, and if need be perform a demonstration and convince the public such expenses were justified. Swine Flu, kerching. Pharma is a business, they are not in it for your best interests, if they were, it would be free.

I'm aware of the possible shady business between the pharmacy industry and some governments. However, as I said, mandatory H1N1 vaccination is very unlikely because there is no good reason after we all saw how "bad" H1N1 really was. No government in its right mind would blatantly mandate the vaccination unless it wished to lose the next election. For countries such as those in Africa, it's an entirely different story.

[rob.derosa]

mercury makes you stupid, it's a fact.

In all doses?

Yeah I think Dara O'Brien sums some elements of this discussion quite well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIaV8swc-fo