Cleaning Up The Community

[petrossa]

Yeah, this. Plus it would mean Tom W wouldn't need to keep closing threads in BPN because they're on the main page.

Exactly and you have more time to moderate, plus the frontpage mods can kick back a bit.

[Diabolii]

i think ppl in general need to stop thinking of the internet as a place to be liked. Not everyones gonna like you online, infact i dont care if ANYONE likes me online. Its a utility, its entertainment, not a replacement for ones social life. People are gonna be harsher on the internet because its their personal time and they want to do what THEY want to do, and anything that makes that less enjoyable will not be tolerated. This is just how it is. When i play videogames i rarely interact with the other players except those that are my friends for example, i just dont see a point of expecting approval online.

[Frogboy Administrators]

We are both wrong. Without talking about another thread with you in this thread I will say this. I genuinely felt that you being away from your product for 2+ years as the Product Manager did make you "out of touch". It's an opinion, not a personal threat. I felt that the direction you were taking with your product wasn't the correct one and I wanted to tell you.

Like most discussions, it is HOW a point id expressed that leads to trouble.

Most people who get moderated/warned feel they were unjustly picked on - even users who just got done using a string of profanity to describe someone's mother.

The greatest thing about you, Brad, is that you are engaged with the community. Being the CEO of Stardock and a Moderator here is really a blessing. You have to realize though that not everyone is going to hold back just because you're in a position of power here.

Certainly, I realize that. However, the onus isn't on me to accept abuse.

I maintain that it was an opinion, but again, I'm trying to give you options to better your company. I didn't feel it was a true insult and remember, you insulted yourself a few times in that thread, using stereotypes of "Frogboy being X".

I would submit that a user insulting themselves is not a violation of Neowin's rules. :)

However, again, *any* time you turn a discussion away from the topic and onto a person you are treading on thin ice. We can rationalize the validity of the personal discussion but at the end of the day, moving from discussing a TOPIC to discussing a PERSON is a move from green to yellow.

I respect you, whether or not I said it. Maybe you are so used to people truly attacking you, that when someone slightly does, you put up a wall. I'm no psychologist, but I have a feeling there is a bit of truth to this. And yes, if you were throwing things and calling me an "ass" like you did.

This is why making it personal is a bad thing because people naturally want to respond in kind.

In your previous message you said "Don't throw a tantrum if you don't get your way." I can tell you that's a pretty provocative thing to say.

...and threatened to kick me out of your house PERMANENTLY and vow for me to never return, not only would I say that to your face, I would laugh and find a house that isn't made of glass, with rocks as foundation.

Then don't be surprised when you're not welcome at said house. If you can't behave in a way that is acceptable to the owners and moderators ofa site, then you're not going to be welcome there.

To continue though, you do need a thicker skin on here.

Except, no, I really don't. And more to the point: Neither do the users of Neowin.

The answer is NOT for people to get a thicker skin. The answer is for those people who like to make discussions personal to tread carefully.

Discussing the topic: Green.

Discussing a person in the conversation: Yellow.

Attacking the person: Red.

The issue of "consistent moderation" boils down to someone saying they didn't really go through a red light but an "orange" light whereas someone else was clearly going through a red. The best route imo is to simply avoid the yellow light.

With that said though, your job here is to be like other moderators. You need to lighten that warning/ban hammer finger. I think this does more harm at dividing the community than the users themselves.

Actually, the message in this thread is this: The moderators are going to be using the warn/ban hammer much more often.

Exactly and you have more time to moderate, plus the frontpage mods can kick back a bit.

I don't think that would be doable (more code writing, more work for the news poster, less revenue from front page ads).

Personally, I would just like to see BPN opened to discussing whatever even if it's on the front page.

[petrossa]

I don't think that would be doable (more code writing, more work for the news poster, less revenue from front page ads). ?

Personally, I would just like to see BPN opened to discussing whatever even if it's on the front page.

Then i'm all for the banhammer. Especially for offtopic on the frontpage, which in my observation most often leads to harassment. Stick to the news discussed, discuss the news itself and mod everything else.

Maybe i'll start reading the News comments again.

And how about opening up the scope of what constitutes News for the frontpage?

[jdegree]

:wacko: Should have brought my hip waders along. Seems to be getting a little deep.

[Unrealistic]

Like most discussions, it is HOW a point id expressed that leads to trouble.

Most people who get moderated/warned feel they were unjustly picked on - even users who just got done using a string of profanity to describe someone's mother.

Certainly, I realize that. However, the onus isn't on me to accept abuse.

I would submit that a user insulting themselves is not a violation of Neowin's rules. :)

However, again, *any* time you turn a discussion away from the topic and onto a person you are treading on thin ice. We can rationalize the validity of the personal discussion but at the end of the day, moving from discussing a TOPIC to discussing a PERSON is a move from green to yellow.

This is why making it personal is a bad thing because people naturally want to respond in kind.

In your previous message you said "Don't throw a tantrum if you don't get your way." I can tell you that's a pretty provocative thing to say.

Then don't be surprised when you're not welcome at said house. If you can't behave in a way that is acceptable to the owners and moderators ofa site, then you're not going to be welcome there.

Except, no, I really don't. And more to the point: Neither do the users of Neowin.

The answer is NOT for people to get a thicker skin. The answer is for those people who like to make discussions personal to tread carefully.

Discussing the topic: Green.

Discussing a person in the conversation: Yellow.

Attacking the person: Red.

The issue of "consistent moderation" boils down to someone saying they didn't really go through a red light but an "orange" light whereas someone else was clearly going through a red. The best route imo is to simply avoid the yellow light.

Actually, the message in this thread is this: The moderators are going to be using the warn/ban hammer much more often.

I don't think that would be doable (more code writing, more work for the news poster, less revenue from front page ads).

Personally, I would just like to see BPN opened to discussing whatever even if it's on the front page.

You make good points. Always love reading the 'other' side because it generally opens your eyes up. I'm kinda glad I posted on this discussion after all. I'm definitely up for the new direction and hopefully it does work out. I can say that a thread I opened up yesterday was quite helpful. If we had a thanking system, I would have thanked quite a bit of them.

There is only one other forum I am even remotely engaged in, and that is PPC Geeks. They have a thanking system and it works quite well. Obviously some people would try to exploit that, but there will always be bad seeds. I await seeing what you guys implement soon enough. :)

[Frogboy Administrators]

say that a thread I opened up yesterday was quite helpful. If we had a thanking system, I would have thanked quite a bit of them.

There is only one other forum I am even remotely engaged in, and that is PPC Geeks. They have a thanking system and it works quite well. Obviously some people would try to exploit that, but there will always be bad seeds. I await seeing what you guys implement soon enough. :)

Yea, those systems can work well.

On the Stardock forums, we have a lot lot fewer moderators (even though the forums are spread through many different sites) partially because the tolerance on bad behavior is so low. So moderator judgment is very crucial. We have a karma system and if someone has a bad day, we can take into account what they've contributed to the community to decide whether it's better to PM me a little "be careful" message.

Here's my profile on the Demigod forum for instance: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/user/1 People can see at a glance what karma they've received (only positive allowed) to see if they've been constructive.

[petrossa]

Maybe it's my age, or my very annoying character (that's my wife's idea anyhow) anyone giving me Karma i'd find unpleasant. You help someone out, that's it. They either say thanks or don't. But to have a rating system leads to compulsive selfgratification. Google petrossa and you'll see my nick all over the place aiding (and being an argumentative, pighead bore), but i do that because i like helping out and sharing knowledge not because someone ups my karma.

The idea that someone pets me on the head and says good boy doesn't attract me muchly.

[metallithrax]

Good boy petrossa

:D

[petrossa]

Good boy petrossa

:D

Don't you dare?

[+shift. MVC]

There are lots of ways to improve the forum experience -- that is what this discussion is about.

...

I agree, but I think you missed my point here. What I'm saying is without the (what I would assume would be) the minority speaking up about the inconsistent moderation, how will IT (being moderation and you could include the Community Rules in itself) improve? It can't, because it's human nature for us not to admit our mistakes easily.

Now don't get me the wrong way, I'm not endorsing the need for people to be open and vocal about every mistake made, but I think you'll agree; if moderating was easy EVERYONE would be able to do it and we'd have 8 million+ moderators. So what sets a good moderator apart from a less than stellar one? It's how they handle decisions that fall RIGHT on the fence in terms of the Community Rules.

[Growled Member]

There are lots of ways to improve the forum experience -- that is what this discussion is about.

In my opinion, the single most pressing way to move forward the forum experience is to start ejecting the toxic users.

I agree. I love Neowin but this is the first forum that I've ever posted at that allows the level of insults I see here. In every thread in seems to devolve into attacking the poster instead of attacking the topic. In my experience it's not what you say but how you say it. I try hard to disagree with people without attacking them but many posters seem to relish the insults.

Just my opinion, but an insult to a poster should never be allowed.

[WastedJoker]

It seems sarcasm and cynicism is outlawed here these days :(

[metallithrax]

I don't frequent many forums, but I know that I have (jokily) insulted people on here. But I suppose the person "insulted" took it in the jokey manner it was intended. I dont really frequent any particular sub forum on here, just read threads that I think may be interesting, or that I can help out in.

I have had accusations/insults said to me, but...whatever. Some people can take something that is said as an insult, while another person may not. There are some things that were said in this thread(I think - it's been going on a while) that I wouldn't class as an insult/abuse, but others obviously did/would.

So much is open to individual interpretation that a (totally)fair moderating team will never be possible.

[Biotoxic_hazard_835]

Great! This will help curb the riff raff. Seriously, I hope this serves as a deterrant to those who post before thinking.

[metallithrax]

Don't you dare

I take your ugly dog and raise it quite a bit.

[Denis W. Veteran]

I miss writing news for Neowin :(

but one thing I hated was the comments and the stupid 1 star rating because they voted who you were rather then the news.

That's not very nice of them. :(

Hence why we'll have only "I like this" starting with Ignition. Sometimes a unary system works best. :)

There's also a solution in place to stop certain members from constantly poisoning all articles from certain news categories. This could go a long way to ensure more productive comments on the front page.

[ATGC]

Hence why we'll have only "I like this" starting with Ignition. Sometimes a unary system works best. :)

There's also a solution in place to stop certain members from constantly poisoning all articles from certain news categories. This could go a long way to ensure more productive comments on the front page.

I wholeheartedly agree. It breaks my heart when I see people having differences of opinions or disagreeing over frivolous matters over the Internet. We should work together on making our community a shining and flourishing example of how a proper discourse must be conducted over the Internet for the entire online community. One Voice.

:)

I can't wait for this new system to be implemented.

[tiagosilva29]

Hence why we'll have only "I like this" starting with Ignition. Sometimes a unary system works best. :)

What exactly do I like? The news itself? The news content? The news poster?

[petrossa]

The content obviously, why ask?

[Steven P. Administrators]

As for a karma system, that's been discussed over and over.. we will be enabling the rep system but only allowing positive votes, so someone with a "bad day" could be taken into account by a staff member too.

The difference is that our rep system won't allow for commenting. Maybe we can do something about that later.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

What exactly do I like? The news itself? The news content? The news poster?

People might be tempted to vote down an article because they don't like Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony and they want to squash positive news for that console.

People might be tempted to vote down an article because they don't like the newsposter (and/or because they perceive bias from that newsposter).

However, if the system is positive-only voting then we hopefully won't see too many votes for the wrong reasons. People would vote for what they like rather than to try to stop others from hearing what they don't agree with.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

As for a karma system, that's been discussed over and over.. we will be enabling the rep system but only allowing positive votes, so someone with a "bad day" could be taken into account by a staff member too.

The difference is that our rep system won't allow for commenting. Maybe we can do something about that later.

Is the rep system going to be fully explained in it's own topic or something, not to be rude I've been trying to keep up with this topic but it seems like there's so much going on between members and staff, and then staff and staff :p

[Colin-uk Veteran]

Is the rep system going to be fully explained in it's own topic or something, not to be rude I've been trying to keep up with this topic but it seems like there's so much going on between members and staff, and then staff and staff :p

it will work like this:

if you like the news article, click "I like it".

...

That is it, yes really :p

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

it will work like this:

if you like the news article, click "I like it".

...

That is it, yes really :p

Okay thanks for clearing that up (Y)

I wasn't sure if it was going to happen with forum posts as well, I'd really like the ratings of topics to be scrapped and a system like this implemented as well to stop people abusing/targeting individuals topics.

But then I know the ratings do have importance in the media section.

That's a hotly discussed topic anyway I think has been answered.