Rep Changes

[petrossa]

The biggest problem we face imo is that a rep system is all well and good when it can't be abused, but the other problem Neowin has is that "bad members" are impossible to tell for new members and maybe less active ones. There is no "mark" on your profile to show other users that the member has been in trouble with site moderators on multiple occasions, and the concensous is that it wouldn't even be a good idea to show it, because those same members may even use the "mark" as a badge of honour, while others will do everything in their power to get back down to 0% again (and this does happen).

I'm not trying to generalise that group, as I have seen a few go from 100% to 0% warning level, bearing in mind that takes 2.5 years (auto reduction every 6 months), that is pretty impressive! Kudos to them (Y)

My problem is the group that continually questions and responds negatively to any staff decision or announcement (like this one) because they are on high warns and are just being difficult, and because they can, if their profile was marked, then other members might see their responses like I do in a totally different light. These people are the ones that fail any sort of "faith" system where we put the power in your own hands, and ask not to abuse it.

Still the whole mess could've been avoided by not installing the rep system in the first place. As you might remember i alerted you to a staff member actively inciting people to abuse the rep system. He got 7 rep points for it. Got the screenshot if you want.

I guess like in real life, you just have to learn to live with the fact that people are just like humans: prone to do things they shouldn't. In an ideal world, with ideal people, communism would be a perfect system. But since there\s no ideal world, nor ideal people this was bound to fail. As the rep system.

[homeboyrocketshoulders]

I cant count how many times I saw a reply to a helpful/insightful post that consisted of something like "+1, thanks." and there was no actual rep given. On the flipside, there were a bunch of troll posts that people found funny and repped up a bunch. And thats just the truth.

When the system is used like that, of course its not going to work as expected. If everybody would rep ANY posts they read that were positive or helpful, not just ones responding to them directly, or ones they thought were funny, peoples rep would show much truer numbers.

There is nothing wrong with the rep system, countless other forums use public rep with no issues. The problem was in the way most people were using it.

[Singh400]

If you were a newcomer here, posting for help on some topic, how would you know which post you could trust? If we had a decent rep system, then you would know that the poster who had a high number of rep points had helped many people in the past and you could trust what he said. In any given help thread, we sometimes have wildly conflicting advice. To me it would be comforting to know that if a poster told me I had to delete something to fix something, that he had many rep points behind his advice. I would hate to take the advice of some random poster and boink my installation.

What kind of logic is that? Troubleshooting a problem is never straight forward. You never have the same problem twice. I would hope that they person having the problem would try every bit of advice given in the thread. And along the way learn something knew. I'm not a forum newbie (yes I cheat on Neowin). And this is the only forum that wants a rep system, which no matter how you try to integrate it will encourage "epeen".

[kjx]

I think the following is a very good idea and quite a workable one. I've included my analysis also:

A. Requirements

1. Users should be able to identify which are the "trusted" users and which are the "non-trusted" ones.

2. Users should know which posts they should pay attention to in the view of other readers of the same thread.

B. Proposed Solution

1. Let users decide whose opinions they take seriously, and then view only ratings by those users (along with a breakdown of who rated how many stars and why). Eg: If I only take neobond's and growled's opinions seriously, I can select that on their profiles, and when I view somebody elses profile I will be shown the average of ratings by only them and as an option, a breakdown of their individual ratings for the user along with the reason they've put for the associated rating. Also, put the average of all ratings (maybe even a history of ratings) handed out on the profile of the user that handed out the ratings (will encourage people to be more balanced and not resort to using the rating system only when they have an issue).

2. Bring back the rep system but only display the number next to individual posts (for viewers to see which posts help solve a problem for eg). Additional options:

- Do not link this number back to the person's profile in any way, OR,

- Give a single rep point (displayed in the profile) for every post that has got more than say 3 of the "old" reps.

Benefits

1. Lesser potential for ratings abuse as those who abuse the system are less likely to be taken seriously by other users.

2. There is no incentive to abuse the rep system on posts because it's completely local to the post (or optionally, has limited impact).

[petrossa]

Disadvantages:

The rep points still mean nothing but someone elses opinion. Lot's of someone elses opinions don't necessarily make the opinion better, it might as well show how incapable the someone elses are.

Consensus doesn't make something 'good', It just shows many people can make the same mistake.

[TrevorLahey]

I actually like the idea of keeping it for mods/mvcs only tbh.

+1

[petrossa]

+1

And what would that add? A kind of extra mod power, we won't cut of your hand but just your pinkie? Pointless exercise in futility. I have had staff actively encouraging members to abuse the repsystem in order to try and humiliate me. I find no solace in yet another personal 'judgment'.

[DaveLegg Developer]

Why doesn't everyone just wait and see what we decide to do, instead of having a long argument based on assumptions?

[Shayla]

Why doesn't everyone just wait and see what we decide to do, instead of having a long argument based on assumptions?

i can't wait to see (Y)

<snipped>

Edited July 16, 2010 by Calum
Removed a quote from a post which is no longer in the thread

[Richard Hammond]

Why doesn't everyone just wait and see what we decide to do, instead of having a long argument based on assumptions?

Yes its always the communities fault, how about you drop the condescending attitude and explain what is coming up so the community doesnt have to argue based on assumptions. What i hate about Neowin the so called staff treating everyone like little kiddies with their "you dont need to know" answer for everything.

[Growled Member]

Why doesn't everyone just wait and see what we decide to do, instead of having a long argument based on assumptions?

Amen, bro.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Yes its always the communities fault, how about you drop the condescending attitude and explain what is coming up so the community doesnt have to argue based on assumptions.

Perhaps staff haven't finalised their plans yet? Let's wait and see what the dev team will come up with. I trust them to find a solution which is satisfactory for all of us.

[DaveLegg Developer]

Yes its always the communities fault, how about you drop the condescending attitude and explain what is coming up so the community doesnt have to argue based on assumptions. What i hate about Neowin the so called staff treating everyone like little kiddies with their "you dont need to know" answer for everything.

Because, as I have said before, and implied in the post you quoted. We haven't reached a decision yet, and any action is going to be some time away. When we HAVE decided, and are ready to announce it to the community, then we will. There is no point in announcing things before we have decided what those things are.

[Singh400]

Why doesn't everyone just wait and see what we decide to do, instead of having a long argument based on assumptions?

Oh I'm sorry, I thought forums were for discussions... :D

[petrossa]

Why doesn't everyone just wait and see what we decide to do, instead of having a long argument based on assumptions?

You couldn't be more condescending if you tried. The community has no say at all, Neowin decides and we accept it or shut the door behind us is the literal meaning of what is posted here.

Lock the thread, we'll stop bothering you with suggestions.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

And what would that add? A kind of extra mod power, we won't cut of your hand but just your pinkie? Pointless exercise in futility. I have had staff actively encouraging members to abuse the repsystem in order to try and humiliate me. I find no solace in yet another personal 'judgment'.

And far too many members would abuse it even more without any encouragement from anyone.

[Singh400]

You couldn't be more condescending if you tried. The community has no say at all, Neowin decides and we accept it or shut the door behind us is the literal meaning of what is posted here.

Lock the thread, we'll stop bothering you with suggestions.

OMG. I found myself agreeing with you there Wonkey, would have given you a +1 rep as well :D (Y)

[Shaun N.]

Maybe we should stop talking, I mean. Who are we to talk about things. Damn I wish we had a community forum where we could talk about random and sometimes IRL issues. Oh wait. Thats Neowin. If the staff don't like us talking about certain issues they have the ability to lock threads. Until then it looks like its fine to talk about it.

[DaveLegg Developer]

You couldn't be more condescending if you tried. The community has no say at all, Neowin decides and we accept it or shut the door behind us is the literal meaning of what is posted here.

Lock the thread, we'll stop bothering you with suggestions.

All I was saying is that this is pointless speculation involving members arguing with each other over what they think is best for the site. I indicated in a previous post the general idea of the direction we are likely to take the feature in, but the argument continues over the best way to allocate rep points for members to use, or if they should even be allocated them, when I made it clear that our intention is to make it mostly automated for certain actions that members perform on the site, with occasional bonus rep awarded by staff for members who we feel deserve it. Arguing with each other is not going to achieve anything, or influence our decisions when the argument doesn't even address the general direction of the plans we have revealed to you.

[petrossa]

OMG. I found myself agreeing with you there Wonkey, would have given you a +1 rep as well :D (Y)

If one sheep is over the dam...... Soon you'll agree with me always? :innocent:

[DaveLegg Developer]

For the record, we would welcome ideas on what actions rep points could be awarded for. For example, I am keen to try out the idea of having the ability in support threads for the thread starter to mark certain posts as 'helpful solutions'. This could then add a link direct to the solution in the first post, and award rep points to the member who made that post. In members profiles it would *potentially* be the case that their rep would be broken down to show just how they earnt it.

Ideas like that would be great, arguments going back and forth about if/how members abused/would abuse the rep system if it were brought back in a similar style to the one recently removed, are not productive.

[petrossa]

All I was saying is that this is pointless speculation involving members arguing with each other over what they think is best for the site. I indicated in a previous post the general idea of the direction we are likely to take the feature in, but the argument continues over the best way to allocate rep points for members to use, or if they should even be allocated them, when I made it clear that our intention is to make it mostly automated for certain actions that members perform on the site, with occasional bonus rep awarded by staff for members who we feel deserve it. Arguing with each other is not going to achieve anything, or influence our decisions when the argument doesn't even address the general direction of the plans we have revealed to you.

Ok. Sorry i must have skipped that post.

You are developing a system you think should do the (a) trick, regardless if anyone wants it or not, regardless whether it serves a purpose other then being there or not, but is destined for putting people off some way some day.?

I know this is a privately owned (is it actually?) forum and the owner makes the rules.

But there's some leeway between pure 'we know what's good for you' and 'you'll do as you're told or else go elsewhere'. I know it's pesky having members that can actually want something/disagree, but hey that's the risk you take when you start a public forum.

For the record, we would welcome ideas on what actions rep points could be awarded for.?

Uhhhh.... showing their boobs? I mean seriously

[DaveLegg Developer]

You are developing a system you think should do the (a) trick, regardless if anyone wants it or not, regardless whether it serves a purpose other then being there or not, but is destined for putting people off some way some day.

We added many features in the latest update that people hadn't asked for, yet they are widely used now. If we develop it and it turns out not to be useful, or puts people off, then you can say you told us so. Personally, I have seen a number of requests across the time I've been on staff for the ability to mark posts as solutions as I described in my previous post. I see no downside to rewarding people for providing solutions, and giving users a way of seeing who reliable, helpful people are on the site.

Uhhhh.... showing their boobs? I mean seriously

Yeah, I meant sensible, constructive ideas. If all we get is childish ideas, then don't be surprised when we start treating members like children.

[petrossa]

We added many features in the latest update that people hadn't asked for, yet they are widely used now. If we develop it and it turns out not to be useful, or puts people off, then you can say you told us so. Personally, I have seen a number of requests across the time I've been on staff for the ability to mark posts as solutions as I described in my previous post. I see no downside to rewarding people for providing solutions, and giving users a way of seeing who reliable, helpful people are on the site.

:wacko:?You see no downside but you are forced to change the system so rep points get alloted according to 'approved' lines rather then freely. Seems like one huge downside to me else why change it.

[Singh400]

We added many features in the latest update that people hadn't asked for, yet they are widely used now. If we develop it and it turns out not to be useful, or puts people off, then you can say you told us so. Personally, I have seen a number of requests across the time I've been on staff for the ability to mark posts as solutions as I described in my previous post. I see no downside to rewarding people for providing solutions, and giving users a way of seeing who reliable, helpful people are on the site.

Yeah, I meant sensible, constructive ideas. If all we get is childish ideas, then don't be surprised when we start treating members like children.

There are pitfalls to that though...

It isn't as easy as that. More often than not, solving a problem is a team effort. So I might suggest something, it might not work. But another member might have another idea, branching off mine and that might work. or vice versa. Also, there is likely more than one way to solve a technical issue. Sometimes the end user doesn't want a complete fix but a quick dirty hack/workaround.

As well as solving issues, there is the case of advising the user as well. Surely if you give good advice that ought to be recognised? It is all good and well, helping a user get rid of malware on his/her system. But useless if you don't outline preventative measures afterwards.

It is never clear cut.