Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God


Recommended Posts

There is no god. The concept of deities was what humans came up with to explain the unexplainable. That's all there is to it.

It's time to drop a concept which dates back to the stone age and move on.

Well then what is your explanation of existence since you seem to know so much? Science can't answer that question which is why religion will continue to exist. Answer that question and religion will go away as you wish. As I said earlier even science has to shrug it's shoulders when when it reaches a certain point.

Just saying God didn't create the big bang doesn't really answer anything that we didn't already know and isn't going to make religion go away unless you can explain everything before the big bang as well which is probably impossible for the human mind.

So what created physics and then what created whatever created physics? You get to a point where you just have to shrug your shoulders no matter what you believe in.

That question ("what created physics? why was physics created? how? when?") is precisely what, among others, M-theory that is mentioned by Hawking attempts to explain. (M theory is among the more popular and established ones)

This is why Hawking is impressed in the above article. That we have come so far as to build theories on this topic.

Note: Also, as one should always keep in mind in these discussions; don't confuse scientific theories with the common word "theory". There's an important difference.

Edit: Also, since quantum physics seem to be based heavily on randomness, as seen by experiments, and also since it was a dominant force "in the beginning", I personally wouldn't be surprised if the big bang was created by chance due to random quantum fluctuations.

Well then what is your explanation of existence since you seem to know so much? Science can't answer that question which is why religion will continue to exist. Answer that question and religion will go away as you wish. As I said earlier even science has to shrug it's shoulders when when it reaches a certain point.

Science shrugs it's shoulder all the time, it doesn't perform dishonest tactics by moving the goal posts and say god(s) is/are responsible

Well then what is your explanation of existence since you seem to know so much? Science can't answer that question which is why religion will continue to exist. Answer that question and religion will go away as you wish. As I said earlier even science has to shrug it's shoulders when when it reaches a certain point.

There is a documented correlation between lower IQ and being religious.

Since IQ is rising, it would be fair to assume we are going to shrug off such superstitious beliefs, not, as you claim, cling on to them like frightened children.

That's the kind of attitude that promotes extremism when you think about it. I could tell you that being an atheist is barbaric, see what I did there?

over debating only hurts it never helps, so why not be tolerant and respectful of what others believe in.

but its the logical conclusion with the evidence we have at the moment, there is absolutly no proof for God.. Therefore God does not exist. It may turn out he/she/it does exist in some form but at the moment out knowledge suggests there is no God.

At the moment, there are no aliens. It does not mean that it isnt possible aliens exist or are out there, It just means our current knowledge of the universe says there are no other aliens. We can say there may be aliens out there or its likely there are aliens out there (although, we dont know how likely as we cant really put a digit on how likely life is to form, even if all the conditions for life to form are present.. It could turn out to be 50% chance for life to form if the conditions are right, or it could be 0.00...1%). That does not mean that 'there are no aliens' is wrong or barbaric, its just that our knowledge says there arnt any aliens that we know off.

We can however prove that certain Gods are not real, when statements about them effecting our life are made. We can prove weither that statement is correct is incorrect, like when someone says "God caused the earthquake cuz they're evil".. We can look into it and find that actually that earthquake was an inevitability and was just the laws of physics at work. There is currently no evidence for any religious god. A

God which created the Big Bang and setup the laws so that it has unfolded the way it has cannot be unproved but then again its pretty pointless, as it means he hasnt interacted with this universe since that moment and he only set the wheels in motion and then let everything happen without interference. It would actually show that the human race is just a spec of dirt to this 'god' and no more special than anything else, we've been around for a few million years; in the grand scale of the universe were nothing. If we was special and 'god' created this universe for us, why didnt he just created the perfect universe for us? without disease(which kills at random), genetic mutations which kill babies/children(again, at pretty much random), and other things like natural disasters? This universe is not a garden of eden for humans, Its more close to hell where we're constantly fighting the devil to stay alive.

Infact, it would be just as plausable to say the Devil created the universe to stop humans going to heaven. Any human which is born, should of gone to heaven to have eternal life but instead the devil stole there soul and sent them to this universe as a game for his pleasure.

And you know this... how exactly?

Logical thinking.

And science explains everything now?

Not everything. Yet. But sooner or later science will find explanations for everything.

By this reasoning, any concepts dating back to the stone age should be dropped?

Dropping the concept of deities would be enough.

What created God?

This is indeed an even harder question to answer than "what created the universe and its physics", in my opinion.

I think creating a God to explain things is only making less sense, not more.

The Same Hawkins moron that claims the Earth will be destroyed by aliens?????

He lost whatever credibility he might have had with retarded comments like that

You lost any credibility you might of had when you made that retarded comment.

Hawkins said we should avoid contact with aliens as it made have devistating consequences for Earth, as they not have the same morals as us or may regard humans as animals (much like we do to any other life form at the moment). He simply said that seeking to make contact with other intelligence life is very risky and may not end in a happy ever after story.

He never said that the Earth 'will' be destroyed by aliens, he simply said that if aliens exist and we make contact with them, they may want to pillage Earth for its resources (if the Earths resources are rare/valuable) and as such, it is risky seeking to contact aliens.

That question ("what created physics? why was physics created? how? when?") is precisely what, among others, M-theory that is mentioned by Hawking attempts to explain. (M theory is among the more popular and established ones)

This is why Hawking is impressed in the above article. That we have come so far as to build theories on this topic.

Note: Also, as one should always keep in mind in these discussions; don't confuse scientific theories with the common word "theory". There's an important difference.

I'm aware of M-Theory and fascinated by it. I just get frustrated by people who act like they've just solved the mysteries of the existence when really they haven't explained much at all. They would just rather bash a certain group of people.

I'm atheist but it's not a religion to me like it seems to be for so many who call themselves atheist.

Logical thinking.

The formation of conclusions from incomplete evidence is hardly "logical thinking".

Not everything. Yet. But sooner or later science will find explanations for everything.

Until it does, your conclusions (which are based on the hope -see the irony- that science will -at some point- explain everything) are false.

Dropping the concept of deities would be enough.

Since science can't rebut it with hard evidence, why drop this concept? Your reasoning implies dropping anything science can't prove, and that's a lot of things we depend on to survive as human beings.

putting replies inside the quote box is annoying.

Anyway...

Since science can't rebut it with hard evidence, why drop this concept? Your reasoning implies dropping anything science can't prove, and that's a lot of things we depend on to survive as human beings.

There's nothing to rebut. There is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of a deity, let alone any that could potentially be falsified by the scientific method.

That's why it should be dropped - it's nothing more that hearsay and wishful thinking.

Sudo, Mephistopheles - stop replying within quotes, it's annoying if you want to respond to them :) Edit: heh @ M2Ys4U

sudo, so why invoke a god in the first place? Physics has a good track record of answering questions, whereas as religion ... well ... doesn't. I do agree that to put all ones eggs in the "science will know everything!" basket is verging on a faith/belief system itself, but it does at least have a track record to fall back upon.

@sudo:

Why should the burden of proof lie with the atheists? Why don't you or any other theist show evidence of the existence, or even the necessity of a deity?

Whenever i had this discussion with my dad (yeah!) , i used to say ,

there is no God , its just some laws which came from nowhere , everything just depends on these laws , which are either discovered , or are yet to be. If , God was there , won't He/She , break these laws as and when He/She had to? Plus , i used to say , even if God is there , why would He/She kill innocent ppl in Tsunamis and other calamities ?

Whatever , no one can justify all this :p

@sudo:

Why should the burden of proof lie with the atheists? Why don't you or any other theist show evidence of the existence, or even the necessity of a deity?

This. Why should we/atheists constantly be told to prove any of the Gods exist? because they are told they must blindly believe and not question if they exist. Which to me is even more of a reason not to believe.

I'd take his word over The Word.

There's no way I'm going to believe there's an invisible man, sitting in a cloud kingdom, watching over everything and creating all life by simply snapping his fingers. It's nothing but superstitious nonsense to sing our kids to sleep.

There's nothing to rebut. There is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of a deity, let alone any that could potentially be falsified by the scientific method.

That's why it should be dropped - it's nothing more that hearsay and wishful thinking.

Asking for evidence to back up a faith... that's ridiculous. Believing in a deity is a faith, it doesn't need solid scientific proof to exist. Denying a lot of human beings their faith (of the existence of a deity) based on nothing is stupid. Much like people believing in love, if they sought evidence of that, they would pretty much stop loving and believing they're loved.

My point is: Human beings who believe in the existence of a deity are as right (or wrong, depending on where you come from) as the human being who claim there is no deity.

Sudo, Mephistopheles - stop replying within quotes, it's annoying if you want to respond to them :) Edit: heh @ M2Ys4U

sudo, so why invoke a god in the first place? Physics has a good track record of answering questions, whereas as religion ... well ... doesn't. I do agree that to put all ones eggs in the "science will know everything!" basket is verging on a faith/belief system itself, but it does at least have a track record to fall back upon.

I did not mention "religion".

@sudo:

Why should the burden of proof lie with the atheists? Why don't you or any other theist show evidence of the existence, or even the necessity of a deity?

As a theist myself, I don't need evidence, I just believe and I will continue to believe until there's proof I was wrong. People like yourself who only believe in science, and rebut the existence of a deity NEED to provide evidence, because that is what science is about, hard evidence.

really we have a god ???? i would like to meet him then & tell him hes fake just like santa clause , tooth fairy & the easter bunny if you believe that then i got several acres of swamp land for sale in arizona

and if you have a problem with what i said stay off the net then

As a theist myself, I don't need evidence, I just believe and I will continue to believe until there's proof I was wrong. People like yourself who only believe in science, and rebut the existence of a deity NEED to provide evidence, because that is what science is about, hard evidence.

Falsifiability is required for something to be scientifically disproved. God as an abstract vaguely defined entity cannot be disproved as it is not falsifiable. To make it falsifiable, one would need to provide a detailed definition of what that entity is and specific examples on how to observe it (wherein such observation would also provide enough data for to make conclusions).

Until then, requiring evidence for the non-existence of such an entity can be considered a joke at best. The side that wants to prove the existence of such entity has it easier as they can themselves define what God is, but they refuse to.

really we have a god ???? i would like to meet him then & tell him hes fake just like santa clause , tooth fairy & the easter bunny if you believe that then i got several acres of swamp land for sale in arizona

and if you have a problem with what i said stay off the net then

:laugh: I think humans needs a supreme power that they believe is powerful and bring happiness to their lives. I truly believe in what you said.

Personally I think this

(carved idol) or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, punishing the iniquities of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those that hate me; but showing mercy to thousands of generations of those that love me, and keep my commandments.

Proves a problem, as with all the different religions, and those that don't believe, a vast portion of the world would be dead already, but their not

Unless each religions God is having a Holy Royal Rumble up there and the victor kills everybody else

Wow, how can a law exist without a lawmaker? He talks about the law of gravity, as though it's a given that it just has to exist. But gravity is so misunderstood, everything we have to explain it is still theories. But it came about without intelligent intervention whatsoever? I'm sorry, but laws containing explicit and intricate information always imply intelligence. Show me some information somewhere that didn't result from intelligence of one kind or another. It just doesn't make sense.

It's a shame that so-called Fundamental Creationists put their spin on the Genesis account and try to say the universe is only several thousand years old. Genesis does not say anywhere that the 'days' spoken of in Chapter 1 were literal 24-hour days. And Genesis 1:1 is completely outside the beginning of the first day anyhow! Cosmology has proven that the universe is likely between 12-14 billion years old, and the Bible doesn't contradict that anywhere with its statement "In the beginning..."

Well that's the end of my rant. I'm pretty disappointed in Hawking. He has no real evidence that the universe was not a product of intelligent design.

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Posts

    • On the topic of being locked out of a service. Recently two different friends of mine got locked out of their Google accounts. Both were hack attempts and one of them is waiting 30 days before he can get back in. He had backup codes and MFA but not a passkey. It was a browser token hack. Anyhow he has to wait 30 days for the dispute or whatever to end. The other person only had a password and is screwed losing all of the email, docs and years of photos. Google won’t help her at all. Her fault because she had no backup/recovery setup. Enable passkeys if possible. Also do NOT use browser based password managers. If using a cloud service make sure it is one you can fully sync to one of your devices so you can back it up. Like a PC or Mac with some backup drive plugged into it. Google is the worst to use IMHO. You can’t sync your photos at all. You have to use the “Take Out” service which is manual and takes days. That service strips the meta data from your photos. Also Google Docs synced to a device are useless without a Google accounts. MS Office/Libre Office is not going to open a link to a Google doc to a dead account.
    • Why you need to take back control of your synced passwords and how to go about doing that by Paul Hill Credit: Pixabay Last month, when Google decided to introduce daily and weekly caps for Gemini, it reignited an anxiety of mine, that you can’t really depend on service providers to maintain features forever, and it got me looking into free software (as in freedom) in other areas too. One app I quickly came across was KeePassXC on desktop and KeePassDX on Android as an alternative to password manager lock-in within the Chrome or Firefox ecosystems. I personally like to switch around with browsers, and using either password manager is inconvenient, so something like KeePassXC was interesting to me. The main issue with it now is syncing; I was not sure how to do that. After a bit of research, I came across Syncthing, a tool I was vaguely familiar with but had never used because it seemed complicated. However, I was completely wrong, and honestly, I think everyone should use it if they use multiple devices. It essentially lets you share folders peer to peer across all of your devices, no cloud services that you don’t control necessary! And it was fairly simple to set up, if not a bit clunky. Since setting it up, I’ve also started using Syncthing to back up other apps too, so don’t think it’s limited to just saving password databases. You can use it for pretty much anything you use Dropbox or Google Drive for. Before continuing to talk about those apps a bit more, let’s walk back a bit and talk about browser sync. Ever since the late 2000s and early 2010s, really, since we have been using smartphones, browser sync has been a necessity of life. I don’t know about you, but I have hundreds of passwords saved. For the most part, they’re all unique, so I don’t remember them and rely on software to manage them for me. Until recently, I’ve relied on password managers in Chrome and Firefox, but what I always found annoying was that it can be hard to transfer them between browsers. Sure, on Windows it is simple enough, but on Linux, exporting bookmarks has been temperamental. It works OK nowadays, but not too long ago, Chrome required you to enable exporting passwords in chrome://flags. The situation is even worse on mobile; there is no exporting or importing of passwords of any kind. You literally have to do it on a desktop, which is incredibly annoying in our mobile-first world. Sync also lets us take out bookmarks, history, tabs, and autofill data easily. To enable sync, it’s just a matter of signing into the browser once, and it handles the rest. It’s nice and easy. Obviously, all this has some issues, including those I’ve outlined above about it being hard to transfer data between browsers, but also things such as account suspension, lost account passwords, and other lock-in mechanisms, such as passkeys, being tied to a specific browser. On a sidenote, I have just removed all of my passkeys because they can make it harder to move browsers. I think the biggest threat to your synced passwords, especially if doing this with Google, is having your account suspended. I don’t ever expect mine to be suspended, but you do hear horror stories on Reddit where people lose access to their Google accounts. Imagine if you have hundreds of passwords, then suddenly lose access to them because Google froze your account, what would you do? So yes, it can be nice to use these syncing services for their convenience, but they also have risks. You may have seen me going on about free software quite a bit in my editorials. It’s essentially a concept championed by the Free Software Foundation. It’s software under particular licenses that grant you four freedoms: run the program for any purpose (0), study and change the source code (1), redistribute copies to others (2), and the freedom to distribute modified copies to others (3). For example, if there is an app I use and one day it gets abandoned by the developer, I can keep running it or even clone the software and continue developing it. Look at the myriad of cool services Google has run over the years before killing them. You can’t take the source code for those because they are proprietary, for the most part. Both KeePassXC and Syncthing are free software, so I get the freedoms listed above. In my use case where I’m syncing a database full of my passwords, I also get proper ownership over my data, there is no losing access to the database due to a frozen account, I can access the code of the tools I’m using, and I can get support from real people online if I run into issues, rather than having to consult a vague help page from an opaque company. With the KeePassXC password manager, you create a .kdbx file, which is what will be synced between devices. KeePassXC has cross-platform apps and also has browser extensions so that the browser can fetch passwords from the database once it is unlocked. Meanwhile, Syncthing is a peer-to-peer file sync tool where you can select folders to sync between your devices. Just pop files in the folders you choose, and then they will be available across your other devices whenever they come online. Syncthing is resilient as it works over both LAN and the internet and only ever sends content between your devices, never to a third-party server somewhere else. By combining these two pieces of software, you can essentially replicate the browser sync functionality. I have had a weird, conflicting issue where a new file is appearing, but it doesn’t seem to be impacting my main password database, which is updating between devices just fine. If you want to get a setup similar to what I have, you will need to go here to download KeePassXC for your computer. Once you have that, you will need to download your passwords from your web browser to a CSV file. In Chrome, you can type chrome://password-manager/settings into the URL bar, and you should see an option to download your passwords under Export Passwords. This will give you the CSV file you need for importing into KeePassXC. If you use a different browser, just use a search engine and type “browser-name export passwords” and muddle along. In KeePassXC, you’ll want to press Import File from the home screen, select the CSV file, and create a new database from it. On one of the screens of the wizard, there will be a Title field with a drop-down selected to none. Change this to Title and continue. You’ll select a name for the database, the encryption level (the defaults are fine), and then you will pick a password. I would choose four unrelated words that are easy for you to remember, as you’ll be typing them fairly often to access your passwords. When you have all your passwords in your new database, you will want to set up the browser extension so that your browser can fetch passwords from KeePassXC. Rather than explain how to do that here, refer to KeePassXC’s guide on how to set it up properly. Once you’ve got that set up, you want to install KeePassDX on Android. You can grab it on the F-Droid store and the Google Play Store. For iPhone users, there are other .kdbx-supporting apps, but I haven’t tried any of them, so have a look around and use what suits you. Once you have that done, you will want to install Syncthing on your computer and find a third-party app for your mobile device. On Android, I use an app called BasicSync; there are also options for iOS, but again, I’ve not tried these. Once you’ve got SyncThing, you’ll want to set it up and connect all of your devices together and share a folder between your gadgets. PCWorld has a good tutorial on setting up a synchronized file between your devices using SyncThing. Once you’ve set it up, congrats, you’ll never have to touch that stuff again except for adding or removing devices. I’ll be honest, I didn’t particularly like setting up Syncthing. It didn’t take me a massive amount of time, but I think I had to check online because I found it a bit confusing. That said, I’ve had it running for several weeks now and never need to touch the Syncthing settings, so that’s very nice. I also mentioned a conflicting file. I’m not sure why this is appearing, but the main .kdbx file seems to be updating and syncing just fine. What’s nice is that both KeePassXC and Syncthing are free software, so they won’t just vanish one day; you can take the code and fork the project or use a range of alternative implementations that others have made. It’s also nice that it works over LAN, so even if your ISP is having problems, your passwords will still sync. One area where you will want to be a bit more careful with this setup is if you only have one device. I am OK because I have a computer and two phones, all synced up. If you just have one device, you will probably want to store a backup of your .kdbx file somewhere else. Obviously, you’ll also want to remember your password really well, too. If you get locked out, it's game over. Overall, if you want to take back control of your computing from big tech, taking control of your passwords is an important part of this. You don’t need to immediately clear out your browser’s password manager; try running KeePassXC and the password manager concurrently for a while to see if you run into any problems. If you do try this out, let us know some other creative ways to use Syncthing. I haven’t really come up with a solution about what to do with my bookmarks, for example.
    • If the price was a dollar, someone would complain "Why isn't it free?" If it was free, someone would complain they weren't being paid to play it.
    • That lens of history will burn if you hold it at the right angle... Warn users too late: Shame, Microsoft! That extremely minor update to an obscure Control Panel widget required 2 years of warning. Warn users too early: Shame, Microsoft! We've got better things to do. Pipeline and process be damned, we'll just always be disappointed, eh?
    • Microsoft Paint used to be my favorite Windows app as a kid, and it's still pretty good by Usama Jawad I have been using Windows since the early 2000s, when I was around 10 years old or so. I vaguely remember playing around with Windows 98 and Windows 2000, but that may have been on school PCs which had old operating systems installed. My main OS on the home PC, and the one I recall spending most time with, was Windows XP. At that time, I used the home PC to create Word and PowerPoint documents for school, but a lot of the time, I simply used it to play games. My dad would bring game discs which we would try and install on the PC, sometimes unsuccessfully, and sometimes, we would rely on flash games in the browser, like Bubble Trouble on Miniclip. However, the problem with the latter approach was the internet speed. On a good day, our dial-up internet would offer us speeds of 56 kbps, but on most days, it was closer to 33 kbps. This did not facilitate online gaming as I would often have to wait minutes for a game to load or "draw" on the screen, and trying to download pirated games wasn't simple either. I remember getting tired of waiting for online games to load and just downloading simulator games from the Big Fish Games website instead, only to be disappointed after finding out that I was just being given access to trial versions of the title, and I needed to fork out money to pay for the full version. All of this is to say that it wasn't very easy to find entertainment options on the home PC when I was a kid, due to a number of reasons, mostly outside of my control. This situation pushed me towards a rather unconventional ally: Microsoft Paint. Whenever the internet wasn't working as good as I expected, I would simply spin up Paint and draw complete rubbish on the canvas. Of course, that wasn't always the intention, but it usually happened when I messed up drawing a straight line or something, and then I would give up on that particular piece and simply draw a random collection of objects. Microsoft Paint was extremely accessible and easy to use. Even if you weren't an artist, you could quickly understand the tools at your disposal and how to leverage them on a canvas. The absolute breadth on offer ensured that each painting was truly unique, as you could utilize various combinations of tools like the pencil, paint, spray paint, and more to truly personalize your creation. Since I wasn't particularly good at drawing both on digital screen or a physical screen, I remember that my main style of art would be to insert a bunch of randomly intersecting lines and then fill them with random colors through the paint can. I have trying to replicate that art style in the latest version of Paint below, and as you can see, it's truly Pablo Picasso-esque. The human imagination truly knows no bounds Microsoft Paint kept me occupied for hours and was my best friend when video games on the home PC were inaccessible for one reason or the other. There was no academic or professional reason for which I would need to use Paint, but I still loved using it in my personal time, even if what I created wasn't worth being shown to anyone. It was simply fun. Fast-forward to today, and the situation is mostly the same. Now that I am almost 29 years old, and I still have no reason to use Microsoft Paint in a professional capacity. In fact, I don't even use it in a personal capacity, except to dabble with it from time to time, just to see if core functionalities are still intact. And I'm happy to say that I think Microsoft Paint still offers the same accessibility and inviting experience that it did to me a couple of decades ago, even though its UX has been refreshed and it's been integrated with Copilot features. Interestingly, things could have been a lot different, had Microsoft had its way. Microsoft Paint was marked for deprecation with the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update in 2017, and even began displaying a product retirement alert, urging customers to shift to Paint 3D instead. Fortunately, after consumer backlash, Microsoft reversed course on this decision, and Paint continues to be a native app inside Windows installations that can also be updated quite frequently through the Microsoft Store. Instead, Paint 3D ended up on the chopping block, which is for the better, I think. I have intermittently played around with Microsoft's refreshed Paint experience in the past few years, and I do think it has received worthwhile upgrades. the UI and the UX has been modernized while retaining core functionality, and the app is still fairly easy to use. It doesn't meet any of my use-cases, but I've never really had any use-cases ever, as described previously. Of course, the elephant in the room is the Copilot integration. Personally, I believe that this is one place where Copilot does make sense, environmental concerns aside. I know that a lot of creatives use AI to generate images, and while some may be using professional alternatives, Paint still offers a decent casual experience, with the power of Copilot. Of course, you do need to have a valid Microsoft 365 Copilot license and available credits to use it, but even if you don't, you still get the big Copilot button in the toolbar, unfortunately. All in all, I am glad that Microsoft Paint continues to be a native feature in Windows 11, and a piece of software that has evolved to meet modern needs without cutting off its own roots. It's just an iconic piece of Windows history that was an essential part of my childhood, and while I don't use it anymore, I'm just glad it is still there.
  • Recent Achievements

    • Week One Done
      Supreme Spray LV earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Month Later
      Genuinetonerink- Dubai earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Week One Done
      Genuinetonerink- Dubai earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Year In
      hhgygy earned a badge
      One Year In
    • Week One Done
      AMV earned a badge
      Week One Done
  • Popular Contributors

    1. 1
      +primortal
      513
    2. 2
      +Edouard
      163
    3. 3
      PsYcHoKiLLa
      88
    4. 4
      Steven P.
      74
    5. 5
      Michael Scrip
      73
  • Tell a friend

    Love Neowin? Tell a friend!