What do you all think about the recent string of Gay teen suicides?

[Darth Laidher]

I agree but its not like gay people create all the threads themselves, i also agree that there are injustices against straight people more than gays but straight people dont have injustices against them just because they are straight, gay people do because they are gay and for no other reason, thats why there are more gay threads. Whats wrong with having support threads for gay people when they get beat up and murdered for being gay?

But it happens all the time.No amount of awwww im sorry's or I SUPPORT GAY RIGHTS! is going to change it.If someone is going to commit a hate crime its going to happen anyway.Try to take a KKK member or a neo nazi and convince them that blacks,gays and jews deserve a fair shot just like white people.It aint gonna happen.I'm tired of having it shoved in my face.Yeah I know if I don't like it dont click on it, but still i have to see it.Its an every day thing gay this gay that.I get it already gays are getting hated on..

[Joshie]

Sidroc, I think Darth Laidher is just a troll. If there's one thing you and I disagree on, it's gay issues, but holy crap I can't believe I just read the last three pages of what's being passed off as logic here. I can't even think of what to offer at this point. It's just bizarre, and um...well whatevs.

As for the topic, I think it all comes down to, resources need to be available for kids who are in these situations. If they feel trapped and they can't find anyone to rely on, or depend on, things are only going to get harder on their mental stability. 'Manning up' isn't a switch people just refuse to hit--they have to know options are there.

A common denominator in these stories seems to be a lack of counselling resources and apathetic (or worse) families. Regardless of a person's opinions of sexual education in schools, if we have guidance counselors that are homophobic, they need to be fired, because they aren't capable of performing their purpose if this sort of situation arises. If parents know their kids are on the verge of a mental breakdown and choose to ignore it to the point of neglect, it needs to be treated as neglect. Should 3rd parties step in and tell parents how to raise their kids? Well, one could argue that in these cases, the parents AREN'T raising their kids. That's what neglect is, after all: not doing your duty as a parent. If a parent isn't parenting, and is willing to throw their children to the whims of society, then that should be no different from consenting to throwing their children to the whims of the government and protective services.

It makes no sense to be angry about who's defending your children if you don't care who's attacking them.

I think that logic is fairly sound... I'd have to go over it again to be sure, but this is just a tech forum. I did my best to avoid the 'blame' issue that sidroc and I have our strongest disagreement around.

/something worth pointing out is Dan Savage's "It gets better" initiative, which is worth looking up if you feel strongly about the issue

[Darth Laidher]

Sidroc, I think Darth Laidher is just a troll. If there's one thing you and I disagree on, it's gay issues, but holy crap I can't believe I just read the last three pages of what's being passed off as logic here. I can't even think of what to offer at this point. It's just bizarre, and um...well whatevs.

As for the topic, I think it all comes down to, resources need to be available for kids who are in these situations. If they feel trapped and they can't find anyone to rely on, or depend on, things are only going to get harder on their mental stability. 'Manning up' isn't a switch people just refuse to hit--they have to know options are there.

A common denominator in these stories seems to be a lack of counselling resources and apathetic (or worse) families. Regardless of a person's opinions of sexual education in schools, if we have guidance counselors that are homophobic, they need to be fired, because they aren't capable of performing their purpose if this sort of situation arises. If parents know their kids are on the verge of a mental breakdown and choose to ignore it to the point of neglect, it needs to be treated as neglect. Should 3rd parties step in and tell parents how to raise their kids? Well, one could argue that in these cases, the parents AREN'T raising their kids. That's what neglect is, after all: not doing your duty as a parent. If a parent isn't parenting, and is willing to throw their children to the whims of society, then that should be no different from consenting to throwing their children to the whims of the government and protective services.

It makes no sense to be angry about who's defending your children if you don't care who's attacking them.

I think that logic is fairly sound... I'd have to go over it again to be sure, but this is just a tech forum. I did my best to avoid the 'blame' issue that sidroc and I have our strongest disagreement around.

/something worth pointing out is Dan Savage's "It gets better" initiative, which is worth looking up if you feel strongly about the issue

Nice little jab at me joshie.I guess you failed to notice phenom's posts.Theres a difference between giving an opinion (me) and being a troll in a thread (phenom).

Teens commit suicide all the time.Its bullying is usually the cause of it.Recently I think it was 4 teens committed suicide because of bullying at school.I think parents and teachers need to work more closely together to fight bullying and maybe that could help things.But then again some teens won't tell their parents or teachers whats going on whether it be because of being seen as a snitch or just embarrassed by the situation or shameful of it.Kids need to be taught that its ok to talk to teachers and parents over matters like this.If I were a parent i'd like to know whats going on in my childs life when it comes to matters like this.I think kids are in a society that shames people that snitch or tell on people because its "uncool" or what have you,that needs to end so hopefully and maybe things like things can change.

Theres also depression and that but i'm not a doctor so im not going to get into that.

[Joshie]

Nice little jab at me joshie.I guess you failed to notice phenom's posts.Theres a difference between giving an opinion (me) and being a troll in a thread (phenom).

Teens commit suicide all the time.Its bullying is usually the cause of it.Recently I think it was 4 teens committed suicide because of bullying at school.I think parents and teachers need to work more closely together to fight bullying and maybe that could help things.But then again some teens won't tell their parents or teachers whats going on whether it be because of being seen as a snitch or just embarrassed by the situation or shameful of it.Kids need to be taught that its ok to talk to teachers and parents over matters like this.If I were a parent i'd like to know whats going on in my childs life when it comes to matters like this.I think kids are in a society that shames people that snitch or tell on people because its "uncool" or what have you,that needs to end so hopefully and maybe things like things can change.

Theres also depression and that but i'm not a doctor so im not going to get into that.

A major problem might be the culturally-oriented expectation of boys to handle their own problems. Though girls commit suicide as well, there's a reason so many of these cases are about boys.

Bullying between boys is, on the whole, far more physical than between girls. Added to that the introversion we force boys into (expressing emotion isn't 'manly'), we're creating a pretty rough formula. Though expression of emotion between men is so approved of in cultural ORIGINS (rampant in almost all religious scripture), our actual society obsesses over tight-lipped masculinity.

It's sort of changing, though, perhaps for the better. It's hard to be sure. It's possible human sexuality itself is going through a sort of adolescence, where for a while the western world was unaware of the full scope of sexual orientation, and is now struggling with a sort of puberty where it has to deal with the reality of what it, as a species, is actually capable of.

/that felt like to many ofs

[The Rev]

Why would I think more gays in the world was a good thing ?

Because this world is overpopulated enough with people it doesn't have a prayer of caring for... We NEED a good chunk of the population that generally doesn't reproduce (as often)... Seriously, straight people should be THANKING them for helping keep the population under a LITTLE control.... God knows THEY aren't. You know, with all the deaths in the world, caused by cancer, heart disease, murder, car accidents, terrorism, natural disasters, etc every year, the human population is STILL climbing... I say, we need WAY more gays in the world. Or maybe, way LESS straight people.. Seriously, you all are destroying our planet cuz you can't keep it in your pants... Gotta have 20 children because ur a religious nut, gotta have more kids to get extra money from the govt or your ex... Gotta skip using protection because "it just doesn't feel as good"...... Gotta "continue your bloodline"..... Good christ, give it a rest! And by IT i mean your genitals! sheesh!

[DATmafia]

In European countries that have had a more accepting stance on homosexuality gay suicide hasn't reduced in those nations. It's stupid to think it's due to close-minded Americans that gays would off themselves in increasing numbers JUST because of societal intolerance. My experience has shown me that gays who struggle with suicidal thoughts care very little about being accepted by society. Most gays famously reject mainstream societal ideals and march to the beat of their own drum. It's usually based on the things like depression, poor self-esteem, drug and alcohol abuse or relational issues. The far-left, non-thinking liberals love to use the "blame intolerant American society under the influence of Judeo-Christian morals" excuse. If there's any place that argument has any weight is when talking about Muslim countries who actively seek out homosexuals to torture and kill. Plus where's the hard evidence that it was because of an intolerant society alone that these people all decided to kill themselves around the same time? Did each leave a suicide note stating that the only reason for their desire to kill themselves was due to an intolerant society? That no other personal factor could possibly be present to send a person to carry out such a drastic act? I guess the far-left knew all these people personally, the thoughts that led to their decision and the circumstances surrounding their demise. Just because someone is gay doesn't mean that was the only reason they decided to take their life! It's like saying every black person who kills themselves did so because there's still racism in society and that alone sent them over the edge.

Progressive American liberals are under such influence of the far-left that they will believe anything they tell them because liberals are unable to think for themselves. Even if the facts don't match or are non-existent on a story, it's still bandied about as truth because it fits their agenda.

Personal responsibility is not something that liberals hold much value in because it puts the blame on the person responsible for their own actions instead of something that liberals think is unfair.

[Calum Veteran]

In European countries that have had a more accepting stance on homosexuality gay suicide hasn't reduced in those nations. It's stupid to think it's due to close-minded Americans that gays would off themselves in increasing numbers JUST because of societal intolerance. My experience has shown me that gays who struggle with suicidal thoughts care very little about being accepted by society. Most gays famously reject mainstream societal ideals and march to the beat of their own drum. It's usually based on the things like depression, poor self-esteem, drug and alcohol abuse or relational issues. The far-left, non-thinking liberals love to use the "blame intolerant American society under the influence of Judeo-Christian morals" excuse. If there's any place that argument has any weight is when talking about Muslim countries who actively seek out homosexuals to torture and kill. Plus where's the hard evidence that it was because of an intolerant society alone that these people all decided to kill themselves around the same time? Did each leave a suicide note stating that the only reason for their desire to kill themselves was due to an intolerant society? That no other personal factor could possibly be present to send a person to carry out such a drastic act? I guess the far-left knew all these people personally, the thoughts that led to their decision and the circumstances surrounding their demise. Just because someone is gay doesn't mean that was the only reason they decided to take their life! It's like saying every black person who kills themselves did so because there's still racism in society and that alone sent them over the edge.

Progressive American liberals are under such influence of the far-left that they will believe anything they tell them because liberals are unable to think for themselves. Even if the facts don't match or are non-existent on a story, it's still bandied about as truth because it fits their agenda.

Personal responsibility is not something that liberals hold much value in because it puts the blame on the person responsible for their own actions instead of something that liberals think is unfair.

I disagree. Just because a society is generally accepting, it doesn't mean everybody in that society is accepting and I believe a lot of the time people's views and lack of acceptance does play a part; not every time, but a lot of the time.

[Tews]

Well said!

[DanLeto]

Natural selection at work. I went through a lot more **** than the odd bit of bullying and I'm fine just stronger than I was.

[Ironman273]

[Joshie]

In European countries that have had a more accepting stance on homosexuality gay suicide hasn't reduced in those nations. It's stupid to think it's due to close-minded Americans that gays would off themselves in increasing numbers JUST because of societal intolerance. My experience has shown me that gays who struggle with suicidal thoughts care very little about being accepted by society. Most gays famously reject mainstream societal ideals and march to the beat of their own drum. It's usually based on the things like depression, poor self-esteem, drug and alcohol abuse or relational issues. The far-left, non-thinking liberals love to use the "blame intolerant American society under the influence of Judeo-Christian morals" excuse. If there's any place that argument has any weight is when talking about Muslim countries who actively seek out homosexuals to torture and kill. Plus where's the hard evidence that it was because of an intolerant society alone that these people all decided to kill themselves around the same time? Did each leave a suicide note stating that the only reason for their desire to kill themselves was due to an intolerant society? That no other personal factor could possibly be present to send a person to carry out such a drastic act? I guess the far-left knew all these people personally, the thoughts that led to their decision and the circumstances surrounding their demise. Just because someone is gay doesn't mean that was the only reason they decided to take their life! It's like saying every black person who kills themselves did so because there's still racism in society and that alone sent them over the edge.

Progressive American liberals are under such influence of the far-left that they will believe anything they tell them because liberals are unable to think for themselves. Even if the facts don't match or are non-existent on a story, it's still bandied about as truth because it fits their agenda.

Personal responsibility is not something that liberals hold much value in because it puts the blame on the person responsible for their own actions instead of something that liberals think is unfair.

Wow, why's it gotta be a liberal issue? The banner of 'personal responsibility' is a selectively executed one, and though it's definitely preferred by conservatives, it's rarely adhered to by them. People who chant "personal responsibility" do so because of issues they don't like to hear about, or due to circumstances from their own lives, feel others shouldn't be granted an easy way out for (note the above post from someone who seems to think people should put up with bullying because he did--also note that he seems to reduce the entirety of homophobia to an "odd bit of bullying", as if it's little more than name-calling on alternate Thursdays).

The problem with preaching personal responsibility is you get so wrapped up in it, so absorbed in it, that you start to believe human decision is the ultimate power over everything. That environmental factors, and the entirety of the universe itself is ultimately weaker than our personal ability to say yes or no. A sort of human superiority complex, that all other life in the entirety of the universe is subject to fundamental laws of causality and instinct, but humans alone stand above all of this, and humanity alone has free will.

This is a remarkable leap of reasoning, and should at the very least, if you're going to believe in it, be believed in with an open mind to others who may disagree with you. Instead, people who make this leap of reasoning throw an ENORMOUS amount of passion behind that belief, spitting down on anyone who would DARE suggest environment may, even SOME of the time, override the individual's will.

Personally I don't believe in any free will whatsoever. I'm a hard determinist (not a liberal, not a democrat, not any label tiny brains come up with after listening to AM talk radio all afternoon), and though I would absolutely adore having a discussion about philosophies of causality and will, most people just angrily deride the notion and claim having no free will wouldn't make sense. The argument goes thusly: "If there was no free will, people couldn't be held accountable, therefore there is free will." There is zero logic being applied in this statement. It's basically the following statement:

If there is X, it appears there will be Y. Y worries me, therefore there is no X.

Ultimately I believe people cling to beliefs in personal responsibility and free will because they're terrified of the consequences of a universe in which they do not exist. It removes a lot of structure and restriction (ironically this sounds like it makes us MORE free to have no free will) in their minds, and removing structure makes humans nervous.

The worst part is, people who preach personal responsibility tend to have pretty douchey attitudes about it, even though it breaks down into being all about fear, and their own internal cowardice and uncertainty. Extreme passion is always born from uncertainty, so the loudest voices are fundamentally the most fearful. This is why we attach -phobia to words we apply to people who hate (xenophobia, for example).

All anger can be linked to fear. Remember this when you allow yourself to rage.