San Francisco may vote on banning male circumcision


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a.mcdear

Seems to me I'd definitely remember the pain a lot more if I were to get circumsized at 18 rather than on the day of birth. Personally, that is an experience I'd rather not be able to remember anyways.... This legislation is insane.

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Calum

Actually, I think if you grew up without it, you would view it more in my way. It's all about how long you have to become attached to "what is you". I doubt though if you had it done as a kid you would hate it, as you would most likely have grown up thinking that most people were like you. I didn't know about foreskin for quite some time, and by then, I was accustomed to myself as is, and viewed it differently.

You might be right; it might be more likely that most people wouldn't mind. Your post and idea make a lot of sense; however, why is it still fine to carry this out on unconsenting children? I imagine there could very well be at least one person in existence who disliked being circumcised. If there is a possibility someone could grow up to hate it, it should not be carried out.

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Southern Patriot

So you're saying that a couple of pro-choice groups is "MAJORITY OF LIBERALS WANT LATE TERM ABORTIONS?"

Laughable. At best.

Please show me any significant group of conservatives in the US who are pro-choice. Seriously, do you know ANYTHING about the makeup of these groups in the US? While there are small segments of liberals who oppose abortion and small segments of conservatives who are for abortion, the majority of liberals are for abortion and the majority of conservatives are against it.

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shakey

And on one note. I've never heard of any girl not sleeping with a guy because of their foreskin or lack of foreskin. And for those that do, then they're too shallow, and i'd never give them the time of day :)

Or they have the IQ of a brick. Either or.

I've heard girls say they prefer no foreskin before.. but hard to tell if they are just saying that to be on my good side :p Haven't heard the opposite, but as you said, who would say such a thing as they don't prefer what they are about to get lol.

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0sit0

You might be right; it might be more likely that most people wouldn't mind. Your post and idea make a lot of sense; however, why is it still fine to carry this out on unconsenting children? I imagine there could very well be at least one person in existence who disliked being circumcised. If there is a possibility someone could grow up to hate it, it should not be carried out.

Oh.. there are a lot of people, and there are even some techniques to "grow" it back again

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Calum

Seems to me I'd definitely remember the pain a lot more if I were to get circumsized at 18 rather than on the day of birth. Personally, that is an experience I'd rather not be able to remember anyways.... This legislation is insane.

Well then you don't have to become circumcised, but at least you have a choice at that age.

Any deity that creates us with a foreskin because he/she/it would like us to endure loads of pain by cutting it off deserves to be defied. I really doubt that if God exists he/she/it wishes people to become circumcised because it was he/she/it that created us this way.

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Southern Patriot

If there is a possibility someone could grow up to hate it, it should not be carried out.

And if there is the possibility that a fetus could grow up to be a healthy child then an abortion should not be carried out, right? Oops, that is the line of reasoning that conservatives usually use against liberals.

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shakey

You might be right; it might be more likely that most people wouldn't mind. Your post and idea make a lot of sense; however, why is it still fine to carry this out on unconsenting children? I imagine there could very well be at least one person in existence who disliked being circumcised. If there is a possibility someone could grow up to hate it, it should not be carried out.

I'm not advocating it being right, just saying that in the long run, the harm that is done is very little. Most kids grow up thinking that how they are is how everyone else is, except of course for the big exceptions. You don't normally find out that you are without foreskin and others are with it until you have normally reached a mature age. Hell, for a good while, I just though some peoples junk was different, not knowing it was due to an operation had as a kid.

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Seizure1990

I love all the people who have never gotten circumcised, talking about what a horrible experience it is and how anybody who's gone through it would feel devalued or some bull****.

Gee, I didn't know I felt this way at all! All this time, I thought I was completely ok with it... and from what I can tell, 99.9% of every person who has had this done to them feels the same. But hey, I guess we're all wrong!

And before someone brings up the "well, we can't force that 0.1%", there are also small groups of people who oppose vaccinations. *shrug* There's always someone out there.

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iamawesomewicked

I love all the people who have never gotten circumcised, talking about what a horrible experience it is and how anybody who's gone through it would feel devalued or some bull****.

Gee, I didn't know I felt this way at all! All this time, I thought I was completely ok with it... and from what I can tell, 99.9% of every person who has had this done to them feels the same. But hey, I guess we're all wrong!

And before someone brings up the "well, we can't force that 0.1%", there are also small groups of people who oppose vaccinations. *shrug* There's always someone out there.

Getting a little defensive are we?

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Southern Patriot

Getting a little defensive are we?

Well, people tend to do that when their beliefs are under attack.

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James7

First off, it's a long shot this will ever become law. Second, if it did, it would be overturned by the courts.

It seems one of the organisations supporting this bill is called Intact America. Ouch! :unsure:

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ShMaunder

Just read this entire thread; wow, the divide between some people.

IMHO, religion shouldn't even come into the picture and in no way should influence any such practice! A decision should only arise based on strong non-biased (i.e. non-religious basis) health advice.

I see no harm with people getting it done when they are older due to a potential health related problem.

Not much of a source, but there are a lot of yahoo answer topics on this with the majority against it.

As for the potential ban - i'm not in favor of any types of bans; so not so much a ban then more advice being out there.

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Calum

And if there is the possibility that a fetus could grow up to be a healthy child then an abortion should not be carried out, right? Oops, that is the line of reasoning that conservatives usually use against liberals.

This isn't about abortion, it's about forced, unconcensual circumcision; the two are completely different issues. You're right, it is often the type of flawed reasoning a conservative would present to a liberal, just like when many of them stupidly compare same-sex marriage to incestuous marriage, but don't compare opposite-sex marriage to incestuous marriage in the same way.

First off, it's a long shot this will ever become law. Second, if it did, it would be overturned by the courts.

It seems one of the organisations supporting this bill is called Intact America. Ouch! :unsure:

Why would it be overturned by the courts? :/ Do you agree with someone's right to cut off others' body parts without gaining their consent?

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Fred Derf

It only has health benefits if you're a dirty mofo who doesn't know how to clean the head of his dick.

I've had 0 complications, 0 infections, 0 anything from not being circumcised

Good for you. Some of the greatest risks for uncircumcised males happen during the first few months of life. I'm glad you got past that. Later in life you can still benefit from lower HIV transmission rates (although the truly smart choice comes from wearing a condom).

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Miuku.
Good for you. Some of the greatest risks for uncircumcised males happen during the first few months of life. I'm glad you got past that.

What, don't parents there know how to take care of their children? Over here NO ONE gets circumcised and we don't have issue with it.

Oh that must mean that infections are rampant and uncontrolled! No, they're not.

Later in life you can still benefit from lower HIV transmission rates

Debunked a hundred times. Based on voodoo medicine statistics from Africa.

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Fred Derf

Huh??? Liberals are the overwhelming majority of those in support of lifting bans on late term abortion.

This is off-topic and we have an official topic for abortions but I would point out that late-term abortions are statistically irrelevant. A few hundred are done each year, mostly by one single doctor. You'll find that the vast, vast, vast majority of doctors are only comfortable with abortions in the first 20 weeks or so.

Debunked a hundred times. Based on voodoo medicine statistics from Africa.

No, there have been serious studies on this that have shown about a 10% decrease in transmission rates. That's not particularly relevant when the statistic goes from 1.78% to 1.6% but there you have it. Wearing a condom every time is a 1000x smarter choice.

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James7

Why would it be overturned by the courts? :/ Do you agree with someone's right to cut off others' body parts without gaining their consent?

It would be overturned because it would be viewed as an attack on the freedom of religion, and perhaps also as a direct attack on Jews: http://www.torahview.com/bris/html/the_bris.html.

Animal rights activists don't like kosher and halal practices, but attempts to ban them would also be viewed as attacks on the freedom of Jews and Muslims to practice their religions.

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Seizure1990

I see that abortion came up, so sorry if this exact point is already floating around, but many people think abortion is evil, and equivalent to murder. The mother is basically forcing their child's death, which I'd say is far worse then circumcision. Guess we should get to banning abortion then!

edit: also wanted to add that, as an individual, I'm very happy that I was circumcised at 8 days old, as prescribed by the Torah. I'm Jewish, and that's what Jews do. In fact, if I WEREN'T, I'd not feel too good about it. It's my identify after all. I'm not the only one who feels like this.

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iamawesomewicked

I see that abortion came up, so sorry if this exact point is already floating around, but many people think abortion is evil, and equivalent to murder. The mother is basically forcing their child's death, which I'd say is far worse then circumcision. Guess we should get to banning abortion then!

Late-Term abortion is banned. Which is when a fetus is considered a human being :) Thanks for trying though.

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Seizure1990

And a very large segment of the population feels that the fetus is a human being even before. But I guess they don't count, since most of them are religious :rolleyes:

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OuchOfDeath

As other people have pointed out, the "Circumcision gives you a higher degree of protection against HIV" is bull****. NOWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT IN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL IS CIRCUMCISION ROUTINELY PRACTICED. Does not that not ring a bell for anyone at all? Nobody at all? It has no effect on health except for the occasional case where the circumcision is improperly done and complications arise, and this should be reason enough to make the practice illegal for those not in consent age. I see people have used the "it's our right to circumcision" argument, and I'm already puking in my mouth. It's your right to cut off a very sensitive area of another person's body? Are you out of your mind? There's no "is it a human being yet" debate here as this is not abortion. This is a human being who is already out of the womb and has rights. One of the rights is the right to not be mutilated, which is what circumcision is, though yes obviously not to the extreme degree that is genital mutilation for females.

You should not have the right to decide for another person whether they get to have a part of their penis cut off or not. That's insane. There is, I'll repeat, no health benefits at all to circumcision, and CERTAINLY none to justify removing a part of a sexual organ.

As for the people claiming that the penis actually ends up being more sensitive from the circumcision, I'd like to point out that that argument breaks the laws of physics. The foreskin is loaded with nerves that stimulate sexual pleasure just like other parts of the penis. You remove that and you're removing one of the parts of the penis that generates sexual pleasure. This is such a stupidly obvious conclusion to come to and I have no idea how anyone ends up believing otherwise. The dubious explanation that somehow the penis ends up becoming more sensitive from a lack of foreskin further does not make sense because if anything it would become less sensitive due to a lack of a protective layer.

If you're reading that last paragraph and are about to start arguing otherwise please remind yourself of the fact that circumcision is only practiced in the United States and Israel, and then ask yourself why. Why does the rest of the world not do this? Why is it only these two countries? Could it actually be cultural? (Hint, it is)

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ShMaunder

As other people have pointed out, the "Circumcision gives you a higher degree of protection against HIV" is bull****. NOWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT IN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL IS CIRCUMCISION ROUTINELY PRACTICED. Does not that not ring a bell for anyone at all? Nobody at all? It has no effect on health except for the occasional case where the circumcision is improperly done and complications arise, and this should be reason enough to make the practice illegal for those not in consent age. I see people have used the "it's our right to circumcision" argument, and I'm already puking in my mouth. It's your right to cut off a very sensitive area of another person's body? Are you out of your mind? There's no "is it a human being yet" debate here as this is not abortion. This is a human being who is already out of the womb and has rights. One of the rights is the right to not be mutilated, which is what circumcision is, though yes obviously not to the extreme degree that is genital mutilation for females.

You should not have the right to decide for another person whether they get to have a part of their penis cut off or not. That's insane. There is, I'll repeat, no health benefits at all to circumcision, and CERTAINLY none to justify removing a part of a sexual organ.

As for the people claiming that the penis actually ends up being more sensitive from the circumcision, I'd like to point out that that argument breaks the laws of physics. The foreskin is loaded with nerves that stimulate sexual pleasure just like other parts of the penis. You remove that and you're removing one of the parts of the penis that generates sexual pleasure. This is such a stupidly obvious conclusion to come to and I have no idea how anyone ends up believing otherwise. The dubious explanation that somehow the penis ends up becoming more sensitive from a lack of foreskin further does not make sense because if anything it would become less sensitive due to a lack of a protective layer.

If you're reading that last paragraph and are about to start arguing otherwise please remind yourself of the fact that circumcision is only practiced in the United States and Israel, and then ask yourself why. Why does the rest of the world not do this? Why is it only these two countries? Could it actually be cultural? (Hint, it is)

This. Agree 100%. That is exactly what i wanted to say.

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iamawesomewicked

If you're reading that last paragraph and are about to start arguing otherwise please remind yourself of the fact that circumcision is only practiced in the United States and Israel, and then ask yourself why. Why does the rest of the world not do this? Why is it only these two countries? Could it actually be cultural? (Hint, it is)

+1 to all of that.

They also do it here in Canada, but I don't think it's as common as it is in the US.

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Seizure1990

If you're reading that last paragraph and are about to start arguing otherwise please remind yourself of the fact that circumcision is only practiced in the United States and Israel, and then ask yourself why. Why does the rest of the world not do this? Why is it only these two countries? Could it actually be cultural? (Hint, it is)

The US is the sole country for a lot of practices and ideologies, many of them ones that most of us would defend, so frankly, that argument is just as much bull as the ones you mentioned.

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