IRC Issues - discussion

[xtrabit racing]

Trolling is the art...

ROFL

[Denis W. Veteran]

Good post Steve.

[p858snake]

"traction" and "gaining traction"

Both of those "memes" weren't used towards staff, The latter was even used in the FPN several times also it was even used by the staff on irc after it was "banned" from being used in the channel when people were getting warned and banned for discussing traction in regards to driving vehicles whilst watching the F1.

And for those that want to know what a quiet channel looks like, This is from 09:06am till 07:11pm today (with all the joins, parts and status changes removed): http://pastie.org/private/8g9slsag5x9ggapq4zmug

[WilcoGamer]

LOL! brilliant! , Need to get some of this spray to use on youtube! trolls feed off youtube!

[_bobcat_ Veteran]

....

That will only work if the IRC moderators do not take orders from other non IRC mod members of staff in the #staff channel and if other staff members powers are removed. Otherwise it's just keeping the status quo, but putting out a human shield for the abuse that results when unpopular decisions are made.

It makes no sense that members of say the developer group, some of who rarely join in the conservation have full on admin powers, the ability to +m the channel and ban users. Likewise it makes no sense for random newsies or non moderation staff to go crying to a staffer with power and having a user banned whenever they get their feelings hurt, when if an ordinary member reported it would not result in a ban. (Yes, it does happen)

^what DrCheese said. The initial bans were unjustified (the definition of 'trolling' in IRC is completely wrong) and there is no point having these IRC-specific moderators if ultimately any decisions can come from anyone higher up anyway. They would be better named as IRC Scapegoats rather than moderators. They won't help people to start talking again either - you banned three people that made up a good portion of the IRC regulars so now a lot of people have moved on and chat in a channel that doesn't punish banter. As said when you talk to the same people on most nights you get some kind of friendship going on, when you break that up things take a turn for the worse.

Most of the time the staff really do not want to be jumping in and banning people all over the place. We want to keep the place fun and enjoyable and no one is looking to go power mad - and honestly we will and do deal with staff if we see problems on that account, it's not what we're about. That goes for forums, IRC and news comments.

I suggested a return to chat mods for IRC with the idea that they would handle most things most of the time. That doesn't mean to say other staff are not allowed to get involved, of course, but it's clear that everyone would benefit from more consistency.

Most of the complaints about who moderates seem to be more about finding something to cry about when people didn't like being called out on their actions. If someone breaks a rule and receives a warning or ban for it I don't see why it matters so much which staff member did the moderating. If you disagree with the action taken that is slightly separate from who handed it out. If a particular staff member was consistently handing out unjustified warns or bans this would be a concern but that doesn't seem to be the issue. Crying 'oh but such and such shouldn't moderate' sounds childish.

I'm not saying for one moment that anyone with a staff badge has free reign to do whatever they want but as others have said, it's always been the case that staff will step in when necessary. I think the only reason it's being brought up as a complaint is because people simply don't like being moderated at all.

The word banter is often used when 'bully' would be more appropriate. It's a universal tactic of bullies to pass it off as 'a joke' or 'banter' and paint the victim as being overly sensitive. If your separate IRC server is the one I'm thinking of it has a fairly limited group of people who already know and love one another, so I'm sure the banter is fine and fairly self policing.

For #neowin this is not the case as there is a larger group using it and many may not 'get' the banter side, it can make the place less enjoyable for them. While it is true to say that IRC regulars would usually call out anyone that oversteps the mark we've seen from recent experience that this doesn't always happen. Staff have to try and maintain a balance so that everyone feels comfortable. Besdies that, the people who were banned went much further than being mean in #neowin.

As an addition to this issue; I'm pretty sure one of the banned users had a 0% warn level prior to his permanent ban. I understand that there is a process to moderation on this site and on the irc, and I also understand that things have changed from when I was staff here. I don't understand what happened here and how the above happened.

I'm in that room everyday, watching the conversations and what happens; IRC was what I lived and breathed as staff, it is also where I spend a lot of time interacting with people from Neowin. I can understand that some people are far more out there than others and their behaviour crosses lines. At the same time I understand those people would not jeopardise being able to go to a place they enjoy.. given fair warning.

As ex staff you'll be aware that some things we'll ban for regardless of warning level. A claim of 0% from the banned users may or may not be trustworthy, and it doesn't count any IRC warnings or bans they may have had.

I started using IRC more when I first became staff and I'm a strong supporter of it, including keeping it open for all members. I have always enjoyed the conversations and banter with members and other staff. I'm bitter and disappointed by recent events. However, the people were banned for pretty solid reasons from my point of view, regardless of any complaints against staff. I'm not sitting here saying staff are all perfect angels, not least myself, but nothing I know of excuses the bad behaviour from those members, either. It's not members of staff who targetted specific people repeatedly and even went so far as to take it to other sites.

The harassment toward staff had been going on longer than I realised, the snide comments like "rounded corners", "traction" and "gaining traction" among others wouldn't on the outside appear to be warn or even bannable offenses, but it is trolling and it even came across as if members had finally found a way to get around the rules by doing it. Most staff members here are doing the work here voluntarily, and in their own free time. Why should they be a constant target of abuse too?

The Twitter accounts and Tumblr site existed before the bans were handed out, and were quite offensive, no-one should have to put up with it.

One staff member slips up and posts something NSFW in the #neowin channel and that staff member is jumped on. I've seen many more examples of members posting inappropriate content in #neowin and then apologizing for it, no action was taken? Action is taken when it appears to be intentional. As for discussion on warez, I still haven't got an example of that, unless you mean Windows 8?

Some members think their input or critique is ignored, thats totally false, we have a report button for comments and articles in our news and I can assure you each report is dealt with, including errors within articles.

Neowin is for the most part a hobby for most of our staff, who aren't actually professional journalists, we got pretty big on being unprofessional and just reporting what we saw, now we're trying to be semi-professional about the news (not copy/pasting from other sites) and there are correct ways to go about reporting issues, but that of course will never work for people who want to be in the vocal center of everything.

[sudo]

The harassment toward staff had been going on longer than I realised, the snide comments like "rounded corners", "traction" and "gaining traction" among others wouldn't on the outside appear to be warn or even bannable offenses, but it is trolling and it even came across as if members had finally found a way to get around the rules by doing it. Most staff members here are doing the work here voluntarily, and in their own free time. Why should they be a constant target of abuse too?

The Twitter accounts and Tumblr site existed before the bans were handed out, and were quite offensive, no-one should have to put up with it.

One staff member slips up and posts something NSFW in the #neowin channel and that staff member is jumped on. I've seen many more examples of members posting inappropriate content in #neowin and then apologizing for it, no action was taken? Action is taken when it appears to be intentional. As for discussion on warez, I still haven't got an example of that, unless you mean Windows 8?

Some members think their input or critique is ignored, thats totally false, we have a report button for comments and articles in our news and I can assure you each report is dealt with, including errors within articles.

Neowin is for the most part a hobby for most of our staff, who aren't actually professional journalists, we got pretty big on being unprofessional and just reporting what we saw, now we're trying to be semi-professional about the news (not copy/pasting from other sites) and there are correct ways to go about reporting issues, but that of course will never work for people who want to be in the vocal center of everything.

Comments like "rounded corners" have been around for OVER a year. It never was an issue. The "gaining traction" originated outside #neowin and was not targeted at any staff, UNTIL a news staff decided it was targeted at him and started kicking people all by himself who have the phrase "gaining traction" in their perfectly casual discussions. It became an issue because a news staff abused his powers.

Inappropriate content is fairly regularly posted on #neowin, by both staff and members, BUT with proper tagging every single time. Without tagging, people got kicked/warned. That particular incident is not much about the NSFW content, the issue is how the involved Global Moderator and Dev immaturely dismissed our complaints. It was down right immature and childish, want a log?

The piracy issues has been brought up numerous times, staff posted screenshots of piracy tools, pirated content, and when called out on it, they dismissed it. People got (perma)banned for similar offenses.

We have been reporting stuff on the news articles/comments for a long time, but some staff writing is utterly rubbish, and the editorial staff were/are doing a poor job at proof-reading submissions. We made that point across, and we've been told to simply stfu. Now, some people have, justly or not, taken it to twitter, why do you care? Do you want to hold people accountable for whatever the hell they want to do on their time on twitter or facebook?

Yes, there are correct ways of reporting issues. We have tried them, and they were ignored. People have contacted you Neobond personally and sent in their input your way a long time ago before this whole mess, written in the most respectful and mature way possible. You know what response they got from you Neobond? NONE. Not a simple "Thank you for your input". Months ago, numerous times.

snipped.

Actually, it's the other way around. Staff don't like when called out on something, so they either silence the channel, or brushe it away all together blaming it on "immature reporting".

And it matters which staff member is doing the moderating. To ensure consistency, not all staff should be moderating because they feel like it. When you became a developer yourself, you publically stated you couldn't take a moderation action because you are not a moderator anymore. It's surprising that you're now stating the complete opposite!

There are logs to showcase the astounding immature behavior of some of the staff who are moderating #neowin, those staff have been utterly childish when called out on the same offenses that got people warned/banned. It's not a one time incident, it's a regular occurrence.

[Brian Veteran]

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The lady doth protest too much...

If you hate IRC so much, why do you STILL frequent it? If you hate the moderation SO much, why are you STILL here. Sometimes it's best for the ONE person with the HUGE issue, to step back, shut up, take it or go away. I got tired of all the BS on IRC, and not the moderation. I was tired of the constant WHINING from said "regulars" and the bickering about getting in ****, so I just extricated myself. Now you've moved over to the forum. Quit following me. Some of the regulars have come in here and are having a mature discussion. Sudo, you do not know WHAT that term is. It's always either YOUR way or no way. Leave them to do their jobs, thanks.

[Fubar]

The lady doth protest too much...

If you hate IRC so much, why do you STILL frequent it? If you hate the moderation SO much, why are you STILL here. Sometimes it's best for the ONE person with the HUGE issue, to step back, shut up, take it or go away. I got tired of all the BS on IRC, and not the moderation. I was tired of the constant WHINING from said "regulars" and the bickering about getting in ****, so I just extricated myself. Now you've moved over to the forum. Quit following me. Some of the regulars have come in here and are having a mature discussion. Sudo, you do not know WHAT that term is. It's always either YOUR way or no way. Leave them to do their jobs, thanks.

One person? think you need to reread the whole thread again then reply....

[Steven P. Administrators]

sudo, for someone who has been here less than two years, you seem to be pretty fed up with all aspects of authority on Neowin. There isn't a single thing we're doing right.

Well the facts are that these complaints are from a very small minority of the active users of Neowin, I find it laughable that you are saying "we are reporting these issues and getting nowhere" who's we? Is it now a little group of self appointed griping members who can't accept we have house rules and if you break them, warnings and appropriate actions will be dished out. Do you read all the closed reports on news articles or comments, or forum reports? I think not, leave that to us and don't worry yourself over it.

There are too many members here for far longer periods with zero warns on their accounts, and in many cases we are reminded by pleasant messages on how we're doing a fantastic job, not only with the direction of the site, but also for clearing out the trolls in a particular area of the site.

It's always the troublemakers that take up most of our time, and really the energy put toward it isn't worth much in the end, because its like pissing on a blazing house, the effort is commendable but you're still going to lose the fight either way.

In case you didn't catch the drift of my response yet, I'm still left wondering why you put yourself through so much depression and misery by continuing to come here, when there are probably far better places to be.

We're obviously not going to change for you, and especially not for members who can't abide by the same rules the majority have no trouble in doing.

[ahhell]

Wow. This thread suddenly needs more "lighten up, Francis".

Geez.

[Fubar]

After all this talk, can someone please point out why Sam was banned? Because he had 0% warning and only had a 10 day ban which then turned in to a perm one from both IRC and the forums for no reason

[Steven P. Administrators]

After all this talk, can someone please point out why Sam was banned? Because he had 0% warning and only had a 10 day ban which then turned in to a perm one from both IRC and the forums for no reason

What part of "we don't discuss warnings with members in public" did you miss?

If Sam feels he was banned for all the wrong reasons then he should take it up with a Supervisor, preferably Colin-UK who is always on IRC and probably knows a lot more than I do.

See, again it's like talking to a brick wall, this is common knowledge for policies on Neowin and I or other staff shouldn't have to keep repeating them.

[Fubar]

What part of "we don't discuss warnings with members in public" did you miss?

If Sam feels he was banned for all the wrong reasons then he should take it up with a Supervisor, preferably Colin-UK who is always on IRC and probably knows a lot more than I do.

See, again it's like talking to a brick wall, this is common knowledge for policies on Neowin and I or other staff shouldn't have to keep repeating them.

Did you not read hes perm banned from both IRC and the forum, he tried to talk to them but got stone walled himself....

[Steven P. Administrators]

He can still use the contact us forum, I'll personally see to it that it gets forwarded to the correct person.

[Fubar]

He can still use the contact us forum, I'll personally see to it that it gets forwarded to the correct person.

Pretty sure he's already contacted Fred Durf not so long ago and its been forgotten about....

[sudo]

snipped.

I know you hold a grudge against because of an old news quality thread, but this is just retarded.

When did I say I hate IRC? I'm simply providing feedback. I don't hate the moderation because I'm not one to "hate" anyone nor one to hold grudges against them, nor one to get emotionally attached to a random site. I simply provide feedback, if people don't like it, they have the right to ignore it.

> Quit following me.

I'm sorry. I didn't know these forums were your own personal private space. My bad.

snipped.

I had but to laugh at this. Instead of addressing the points I was making, you too chose to attack me personally. Very professional. It was feedback, and it's not coming from a "a little group of self appointed griping members". Just take a look at your stats.

I didn't expect any less from you though, tbh.

[Brian Veteran]

I know you hold a grudge against because of an old news quality thread, but this is just retarded.

When did I say I hate IRC? I'm simply providing feedback. I don't hate the moderation because I'm not one to "hate" anyone nor one to hold grudges against them, nor one to get emotionally attached to a random site. I simply provide feedback, if people don't like it, they have the right to ignore it.

> Quit following me.

I'm sorry. I didn't know these forums were your own personal private space. My bad.

I had but to laugh at this. Instead of addressing the points I was making, you too chose to attack me personally. Very professional. It was feedback, and it's not coming from a "a little group of self appointed griping members". Just take a look at your stats.

I didn't expect any less from you though, tbh.

I hold no grudge against you. I just get annoyed when you whine, which is ALWAYS about something. You're not providing feedback. You're becoming part of the issue. The community isn't here to mold to your whims, if you want to be a member of the community you are supposed to conform to it. There's always the option of not logging in, which is the one that YOU caused me to use on IRC. So try it out, you'll be much happier, I'm sure.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Obligatory image after reading some posts in this thread and following the conversation on both #neowin and #kick-ban:

There's not much more to say about the matter other than it's ironic how some are complaining about the moderation system without knowing all of the details of how it works. I know how it used to work at least, and how - save for some adjustments - it still works from being an IRC mod back in 2007/2008. (Btw, Neobond: I can haz moderator badge back?)

There is a system of checks and balances, and bans aren't handed out without a good reason for them. No one outside of staff knows the exact reasoning behind the three perma-bans which have been handed out; yet some of you keep asking for said bans to be lifted. Something I personally am against; all of us know how it would go - after a while the channel would degrade massively again.

[Denis W. Veteran]

I've split the IRC related discussion into this thread to keep the original announcement intact.

[what]

There's not much more to say about the matter other than it's ironic how some are complaining about the moderation system without knowing all of the details of how it works. I know how it used to work at least, and how - save for some adjustments - it still works from being an IRC mod back in 2007/2008.

So basically, it's still better than it was 5 years ago, therefore it's fine? There's nothing 'ironic' about not knowing either.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

So basically, it's still better than it was 5 years ago, therefore it's fine?

No - you complain about moderation issues without knowing all the details which led to warns/bans or without knowing how exactly the system works. It is an entirely different discussion whether or not staff ought to be more transparent to warned/banned members as to the reasoning behind the moderation actions though.

The point I'm basically trying to make in the previous post is that the moderation system is for the most part fair. Admittedly some rules seem to have been used inconsistently, which is down to who moderates the channel at the time and is something moderators et al. need to look into.

[Steven P. Administrators]

A few members call moderation policy into question, a couple thousand active members (and many more in the past) have no issues with it.

Hmm, I should be worried!

[Fubar]

A few members call moderation policy into question, a couple thousand active members (and many more in the past) have no issues with it.

Hmm, I should be worried!

You are forgetting people are complaining about the IRC modding not the forum modding, and most are the active chatters in IRC who have an issue....

[DrCheese]

A few members call moderation policy into question, a couple thousand active members (and many more in the past) have no issues with it.

There are a few thousand users on IRC? Forum = ! IRC

[Steven P. Administrators]

Yep everyones invited to IRC :p

We should get rid of it and just use IPB Chat *pings Timan*