IRC Issues - discussion

[DaveLegg Developer]

Unban the three that where banned, give them warnings and if it happens again then perma ban, sort out the modding issues on the irc channel and job done, it really is THAT simple ;)

Given that you don't know why we banned them, and as you know, we won't discuss that with you, because that's not fair on them, it's really not that simple.

Behave, don't break the rules, and respect staff decisions and you won't have problems. It IS that simple.

[j0nnymoe]

Unban the three that where banned, give them warnings and if it happens again then perma ban, sort out the modding issues on the irc channel and job done, it really is THAT simple ;)

^^ This

[Fubar]

Given that you don't know why we banned them, and as you know, we won't discuss that with you, because that's not fair on them, it's really not that simple.

Behave, don't break the rules, and respect staff decisions and you won't have problems. It IS that simple.

Oh please do me a Favour Dave, I know exactly what went on stop treating your user base like they are noobs you are being bloody insulting

[DaveLegg Developer]

I know exactly what went on

You don't have access to our staff forums, nor were you in our staff channels on IRC, so you have no idea the length and detail of the discussions that took place.

[tiagosilva29]

Given that you don't know why we banned them, and as you know, we won't discuss that with you, because that's not fair on them, it's really not that simple.

I know why they where banned. In fact, I had no idea on what was going on until Neobond send me (and others) a PM. Fubar and the others here probably received the same or a similar PM.

[Fubar]

You don't have access to our staff forums, nor were you in our staff channels on IRC, so you have no idea the length and detail of the discussions that took place.

I know you banned them without giving all three of them a reason....

[what]

Given that you don't know why we banned them, and as you know, we won't discuss that with you, because that's not fair on them, it's really not that simple.

Behave, don't break the rules, and respect staff decisions and you won't have problems. It IS that simple.

To be honest, talking to them, they don't know either. The last thing that happened was we were talking about Bear Grylls. The banter between ourselves doesn't deserve a permaban from the entire site.

[Fubar]

Sorry dave but this is just one big mess that needs sorting out, and it is easy to sort out so please dont try making out modding a site or a IRC channel is hard because it isnt...

[tiagosilva29]

I know you banned them without giving all three of them a reason....

Well, there was a reason. But considering the community rules and the IRC rules, I don't think that reason had legs to stand.

[enigma-penguin Veteran]

To be honest, talking to them, they don't know either. The last thing that happened was we were talking about Bear Grylls. The banter between ourselves doesn't deserve a permaban from the entire site.

As an addition to this issue; I'm pretty sure one of the banned users had a 0% warn level prior to his permanent ban. I understand that there is a process to moderation on this site and on the irc, and I also understand that things have changed from when I was staff here. I don't understand what happened here and how the above happened.

I'm in that room everyday, watching the conversations and what happens; IRC was what I lived and breathed as staff, it is also where I spend a lot of time interacting with people from Neowin. I can understand that some people are far more out there than others and their behaviour crosses lines. At the same time I understand those people would not jeopardise being able to go to a place they enjoy.. given fair warning.

[sudo]

snipped.

Do you want me to go ahead and post the log of the conversations that followed you posting non tagged NSFW content? (until now, I avoided naming anyone out of courtesy)

We would have been ok with: "Sorry, I meant to PM it to neobond" or some unconvincing but very plausible excuse like that. But no, you ignored our complaints and a long standing Global Moderator started defending you calling us "immature" because we called you on it. I can post the log to see that we have been nothing but mature about it.

Unfortunately, it didn't stop there. A dev sets the channel to +m and basically told us to stfu, ignoring our questions and concerns. We would have been ok with that and a "Yeh, we talked about in #staff, and this won't occure again". No, said Dev pulled his frequent childish attitude again and told us to "be mature about it".

I can go on with this rambling, but point is, you have not being helpful nor understanding when we report stuff (through PM or in #neowin or using /report). Every staff from newsies to devs inconsistently enforces some mysterious rules and people get warned/banned for whatever reason said staff fancies.

You know from reading our rules that we do not discuss moderation with other users, as we usually say in response when we're asked about it.

As for developers and other members of staff moderating IRC, that's the way it always has been, and always will be, with the exception of News Posters. Developers run the IRC server, and as such, have always been granted the permission to step in where needed. Generally, I only step in when there aren't any supervisors around, and the moderators need someone higher up the chain to refer to. Often the best way to deal with things when a huge issue has sprung up that is preventing other talk in the channel, is to silence the channel while we deal with it. It prevents things being said that cause people's tempers to run high etc.

Let's just assume for a moment, as you're suggesting, that you're high up the rank the moderation queue (which technically, you are not), do you realize that your approach is down right insulting and immature? Every time you (personally) don't like a discussion (within the rules) you silence the channel and you start calling the lot of us "immature" and "kids".

Just because you run the servers doesn't mean you can moderate #neowin. You should not, because you are not part of it. You don't participate in the discussions, you are not familiar with the day to day events/incidents. You should stick to running the server. If you want to moderate the channel, get involved in it please.

[DaveLegg Developer]

I know you banned them without giving all three of them a reason....

They were all PMed when the bans were issued, if they had a problem with the reasoning, or didn't understand it, they could have just replied to the PM instead of (in some cases) creating further issues.

[Fubar]

They were all PMed when the bans were issued, if they had a problem with the reasoning, or didn't understand it, they could have just replied to the PM instead of (in some cases) creating further issues.

Yeah i think you are clearly wrong here, Pandya Received No such thing Sam was on 0% warn and still got perma banned from both the Site and IRC so yeah keep telling yourself that mate :) oh and ive seen the logs of the convo between neobond and those involved and i can certainly tell you after they replied NOTHING was said from the staff just the perm bans

[tiagosilva29]

oh and ive seen the logs of the convo between neobond and those involved

Correction: I wasn't involved nor around at the time, but still received that... so I assume a lot of people received those messages.

[Fubar]

This is version of events,

1: Warned by Laura to stop trolling which they did

2:Biohazard hands out 10 day bans for three involved pretty much 5 mins after

3: they try to talk to said mod who handed out the bans but was told to refer it to higher up

4:fake twitter account created by some one blamed on one of the three with no proof

5:neobond started a Pm with people involved along with people who had nothing to do with events asking for input to what happened and how he can help

6:said three replied with very decent answers and very constructive criticism

7:**** take site started up mocking the actions of neowin staff and so on again blamed on either three with no proof

8:Staff Member of neowin staff entered another IRC server and started Calling everyone in the room Retards to which logs of this was posted to neobond in the PM

9:Perma Bans handed out without a reason given to any of the three involved

the fact that said banned members tired to do it the staffs way and getting a decent response to unfair bans and it fell on deaf ears is laughable, users notice this and started questioning the actions of the staff and we got stone walled saying we dont discuss this in public, im not surprised you dont not when you have a half arsed way of Modding an irc chatroom

[NotChetHanks]

I'm surprised this hasn't been shut down. This is good for the mod/user relationships. Very good. Conversation is very important. Kudos Neowin!

[DrCheese]

You know from reading our rules that we do not discuss moderation with other users, as we usually say in response when we're asked about it.

You simply can not do that on IRC where people have over the years become long term friends with each other. If you had one of your IRL friendship group suddenly ejected by another guy for absolutely no reason you'd be pretty peeved and want a reason why it was done. Being told just to "deal with it" would enrage you even more.

[what]

You simply can not do that on IRC where people have over the years become long term friends with each other. If you had one of your IRL friendship group suddenly ejected by another guy for absolutely no reason you'd be pretty peeved and want a reason why it was done. Being told just to "deal with it" would enrage you even more.

Perhaps also somewhat relevantly, if they just get a bad attitude when they ask, they all move on to somewhere else as a big group. I'm not an IRC veteran but have been a regular for three years. It takes ages to establish channels and banning three regulars as they were undoes that overnight.

[Andrew Lyle Global Moderator]

I can personally say I was put off from #neowin over the past few months. Due to the "trolling" of sorts, it was directed at a number of members and staff, me being one. I have seen a huge improvement in IRC over the past few weeks, and beginning to participate once again.

Many staff members on IRC do not actively participate in #neowin, but the staff operations are very much active. I would have to disagree with turning IRC into a staff-only feature, because I think a lot of members really enjoy chatting with other members. I've been an active member on IRC for two and a half years now, since first joining staff. I remember the first thing I did once I learned of being hired was jump on IRC.

I should also note that because staff members don't actively participate in #neowin, we are very active in the staff area. There are also a number of staff watching #neowin while we're doing others things aswell, so some members should take into account that some members of staff have been watching #neowin unfold to what it is today for a number of months, even years. Even if we aren't talking in #neowin, most are aware of issues going on in other channels.

[Fubar]

Ive seen it dead for the last few weeks, so if you think thats an improvement then fair does....

[what]

Ive seen it dead for the last few weeks, so if you think thats an improvement then fair does....

It's an improvement because the trolls are gone.

[sudo]

snipped.

Since you made this about yourself, need I remind you that you are one of the staff who regularly were called out on piracy issues and simply brushed it away as nothing? You were also one of the staff who personally attacked people (calling them idiots and whatnot) and some of the people who called you out on this are the very ones that are now banned?

So the improvements you're talking about are a chat room where you get to personally attack people, admit to piracy, get away with it and ban anyone who uses memes you feel are directed against you?

Yeh, amazing improvements.

[Fubar]

When you have majority of the active chatters in the irc chat room speaking out and saying something isnt right here.. and it just gets ignored even though we are told to let them know is just simply astonishing tbh

Your Modding of the IRC chatroom needs to be sorted once and for all so this entire farce doesn't happen in the first place, like i said you guys should undo the three bans that where simply far too draconian for what transpired.

When Laura warned them for trolling they stopped and thats where it should have been left not what transpired afterwards which to be totally frank it was the staffs own doing with the way they handle the bans, I can quite easily get the chatlogs from all three regarding their chat as to why they where being banned for ten days and let me tell you this... when you staff say its down to them to pm people involved they did and the reply they got was just plain rude and ignorant...

[Brian Veteran]

[Steven P. Administrators]

The harassment toward staff had been going on longer than I realised, the snide comments like "rounded corners", "traction" and "gaining traction" among others wouldn't on the outside appear to be warn or even bannable offenses, but it is trolling and it even came across as if members had finally found a way to get around the rules by doing it. Most staff members here are doing the work here voluntarily, and in their own free time. Why should they be a constant target of abuse too?

The Twitter accounts and Tumblr site existed before the bans were handed out, and were quite offensive, no-one should have to put up with it.

One staff member slips up and posts something NSFW in the #neowin channel and that staff member is jumped on. I've seen many more examples of members posting inappropriate content in #neowin and then apologizing for it, no action was taken? Action is taken when it appears to be intentional. As for discussion on warez, I still haven't got an example of that, unless you mean Windows 8?

Some members think their input or critique is ignored, thats totally false, we have a report button for comments and articles in our news and I can assure you each report is dealt with, including errors within articles.

Neowin is for the most part a hobby for most of our staff, who aren't actually professional journalists, we got pretty big on being unprofessional and just reporting what we saw, now we're trying to be semi-professional about the news (not copy/pasting from other sites) and there are correct ways to go about reporting issues, but that of course will never work for people who want to be in the vocal center of everything.