185 replies to this topic

[THolman]

I know this is like stepping into a minefield, but frankly, people should be allowed to hold whatever opinion they want, and say what ever they want, provided that they aren't hurting anyone (and I do not mean feelings) by doing so. I don't think anyone deserves to be bullied, regardless of who they are, but people of any faith can genuinely believe that something is wrong without bullying the people who are 'guilty' of it, at least in the minds of the people who believe that something is wrong.

But if there is one thing I've learnt over the years, that's that attacking people's beliefs with verbal attacks and profanity doesn't accomplish much, other than ****ing them off. I'm sure that Mr. Savage would've been upset if one of the people who walked out had jumped up and called his beliefs BS, and I doubt that he would've sat through an anti-gay rally where people were throwing slurs left and right. I'm not siding with anyone here, just trying to be objective - mutual respect goes a long way, and genuine debate and friendship is way better than anger and emotional attacks.

[shakey]

KillTheIrishman, on 30 April 2012 - 22:32, said:

Well you can twist it to your agenda, but I have beleifs just as I suppose that you do. What do you follow or beleive in?

Do you even understand what we are talking about?
here is a very simple way for you to understand I guess....
You have a book of rules that you and everyone else follows. It has 40 rules of life. You agree with 38 rules, but not the 2 last ones, so you ignore those. Well, your friend agrees with only 25 rules, so he ignores the other 15.... so on and so on. Now, all of you who follow this book, go around and tell everyone what they should and should not do, based off of this book, that you have chosen to cherry pick certain details to follow and certain ones to ignore. You have no basis upon how to choose, except " i don't agree with this " and yet, you tell people that if they do not do it all, they are bad. You , and everyone else that is a part of the big game of religion, do this. You will choose to ignore what it says about slavery, while others won't. But the key peice is, you have no base to cherry pick from. It is either you choose all or nothing in a book. You can't read Lord of the Rings and say, " Well, the hobbits were real, but I don't think wizards are...." without having solid reasoning. It makes you look like just that much more of a hypocrite....

[shakey]

THolman, on 30 April 2012 - 22:35, said:

I know this is like stepping into a minefield, but frankly, people should be allowed to hold whatever opinion they want, and say what ever they want, provided that they aren't hurting anyone (and I do not mean feelings) by doing so. I don't think anyone deserves to be bullied, regardless of who they are, but people of any faith can genuinely believe that something is wrong without bullying the people who are 'guilty' of it, at least in the minds of the people who believe that something is wrong.

But if there is one thing I've learnt over the years, that's that attacking people's beliefs with verbal attacks and profanity doesn't accomplish much, other than ****ing them off. I'm sure that Mr. Savage would've been upset if one of the people who walked out had jumped up and called his beliefs BS, and I doubt that he would've sat through an anti-gay rally where people were throwing slurs left and right. I'm not siding with anyone here, just trying to be objective - mutual respect goes a long way, and genuine debate and friendship is way better than anger and emotional attacks.

Long is passed the time to play respect the make believe. The world does not need lies to run. Sure, believe what you want, but don't impede human evolution of the mind with it. We are passed the times of false gods and superstitions. We are passed the times of ideas that only help divide and segregate each other. We can do better... We must.

[HawkMan]

KillTheIrishman, on 30 April 2012 - 22:32, said:

Well you can twist it to your agenda, but I have beleifs just as I suppose that you do. What do you follow or beleive in?

That I will live untill I die, and the I die and thats the end of it.

And again, do you follow every word of the bible or do you pick whatever you want and ignore what you don't like or what has become socially unacceptable... After all if you are a true Christian then you need to follow the whole book, all of it.

[THolman]

shakey, on 30 April 2012 - 22:40, said:

Long is passed the time to play respect the make believe. The world does not need lies to run. Sure, believe what you want, but don't impede human evolution of the mind with it. We are passed the times of false gods and superstitions. We are passed the times of ideas that only help divide and segregate each other. We can do better... We must.

And I absolutely respect your right to believe that! Again, I know this is a minefield, and I don't want to become involved in an argument - I'm just saying that respect is the best path. I don't see any difference in someone walking up to a Christian (or a Jew, or a Muslim, a Buddhist - you name it) and calling their heartfelt beliefs BS than some nutcase picketing a soldier's funeral. Real, intellectual debates with a respectful attitude go somewhere, but being abusive just shows that you're just as bad and ignorant as whoever you're opposing, regardless of which side you're on. A society that is intolerant to religion is just as bad as one that's intolerant to gays, racist, or any other evil.

[shakey]

THolman, on 30 April 2012 - 22:46, said:

And I absolutely respect your right to believe that! Again, I know this is a minefield, and I don't want to become involved in an argument - I'm just saying that respect is the best path. I don't see any difference in someone walking up to a Christian (or a Jew, or a Muslim, a Buddhist - you name it) and calling their heartfelt beliefs BS than some nutcase picketing a soldier's funeral. Real, intellectual debates with a respectful attitude go somewhere, but being abusive just shows that you're just as bad and ignorant as whoever you're opposing, regardless of which side you're on. A society that is intolerant to religion is just as bad as one that's intolerant to gays, racist, or any other evil.

Not really... we can be intolerant towards religion because it actually does some bad. There are preist molesting kids and other activities being performed that are just as harmful. Until the religious groups start doing more good than they are doing bad, they fall under scrupulous eyes. When someone holds as much power as religion does in politics and the daily lives of people, it should be held to a standard. If it isn't sticking to that standard, then the people of this world have every right to complain about it.
Religion isn't anything like your sex, skin color, age, or sexual preference.... Religion is something one chooses. Religion is something one practices. Religion is something one can walk away from when it is doing wrong. Religion is something that can be held accountable.
I think "respect" is used wrong. Respect is earned. Tolerance is what most should practice towards religions, if religions show they will do the same. If not, there is no reason to show tolerance to it, let alone an ounce of respect.

[KillTheIrishman]

Wow. If I would have been able to witness the backlash from what I had originally posted, I wouldn't have said anything. To each his or her own. I've not been a member for too long but what I can gather the "higher posters" relish in making the new posters feel like crap if they don't agree somewhat to their beliefs.

[THolman]

shakey, on 30 April 2012 - 22:51, said:

Not really... we can be intolerant towards religion because it actually does some bad. There are preist molesting kids and other activities being performed that are just as harmful. Until the religious groups start doing more good than they are doing bad, they fall under scrupulous eyes. When someone holds as much power as religion does in politics and the daily lives of people, it should be held to a standard. If it isn't sticking to that standard, then the people of this world have every right to complain about it

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're making a bit of a blanket statement. I'm quite confident that the majority of religious people don't support the priests who molest children, and it is most certainly not supported by the beliefs they are supposed to hold. The same goes for many other problems. I'm sure that there have been atheists who have molested children as well, but I don't fault all atheists for that, and I'm sure you don't condone their activities. "One [insert religion here] does something bad, therefore all [insert religion here] are bad and do not deserve respect." Just seems a bit hypocritical to me, that's all I'm saying.

[Calum]

KillTheIrishman, on 30 April 2012 - 22:58, said:

[. . .] I've not been a member for too long but what I can gather the "higher posters" relish in making the new posters feel like crap if they don't agree somewhat to their beliefs.

I can assure you that isn't true The Real World Issues section of Neowin is full of passionate people on opposite sides. This is how people post in this area, and such posts are directed at anyone, no matter the amount of time they've spent here. They're passionate posts, but as long as they don't contain personal attacks or break any other rules, they're allowed. We've long said that people should have a thick skin, if they read or post in Real World Issues. Try not to let it get to you, if you do enjoy debating. We encourage polite debate and discussion, and I believe that a passionate discussion can also be a polite one. Welcome to Neowin, by the way

[KillTheIrishman]

Calum, on 30 April 2012 - 23:13, said:

I can assure you that isn't true The Real World Issues section of Neowin is full of passionate people on opposite sides. This is how people post in this area, and such posts are directed at anyone, no matter the amount of time they've spent here. They're passionate posts, but as long as they don't contain personal attacks or break any other rules, they're allowed. We've long said that people should have a thick skin, if they read or post in Real World Issues. Try not to let it get to you, if you do enjoy debating. We encourage polite debate and discussion, and I believe that a passionate discussion can also be a polite one. Welcome to Neowin, by the way

TY for the welcome! I do have a thick skin. Just seems that others are quick to judge or try to force their opinion on others.

[DrakeN2k]

There is a great flood coming , I know lets built a boat soooo big it can house 2 of every animal ever.

Ok....

[Shadrack]

Aethec, on 30 April 2012 - 21:08, said:

If they are too blinded by faith to understand that Savage's point on not respecting Leviticus to the letter is perfectly valid, they're stupid, period.
I'd bet most of the students who stayed, like most Americans, were Christian - just not the completely stupid kind.

Taken at face value, I mostly agree with you. But if you watch the video of him, he looks like he is picking a fight with the Bible as a whole.

But whatever, I agree with your sentiment. He could have been more PC and there still would have been some folks walking out.

[rant]
American Christians make themselves out to be persecuted and overall I would say they are the easiest people to offend in America because they take offense by a large number of things. It is such a large number of things because what offends them may or may not have anything to do with them or directly influence their personal lives at all. Yet they do not understand how extremely offensive they come across when they want to regulate and control the aspects of other people and they do it in a way the does have a direct influence on other's personal lives (or they do understand and don't care or are in extreme denial that they even do this and classify it all under everyone persecuting them).
[/rant]

Sorry if I offended you with my rant . I know there are individual christians that do not have the same boxed in mindset (I know a lot of them, and they are great people and some are good friends), but the vast majority of christians that are active in politics do seem to have this mindset.

[+chAos972]

It's a shame that some students these days aren't respectful enough to sit through his speech and actually engage in a debate with him later, instead choosing to walk out like they have some moral high ground.

Instead of being taught to learn and question, they choose to keep a closed mind and that won't get them very far in life if they can't handle people they don't agree with.

[shakey]

KillTheIrishman, on 30 April 2012 - 23:27, said:

TY for the welcome! I do have a thick skin. Just seems that others are quick to judge or try to force their opinion on others.

Not at all, just trying to show the difference between what opinion and fact is. Debate all you want about anything, and be as passionate as you can... just be truthful and don't try to twist things around to make your argument try and have more validity than it should. I for one, and a stickler for being clear with the meanings of words.

@ Tholman, I know generalizing is bad, and I try not to. I'm not condoning those of the religion themselves, but more so, I condone the religious doctrines and how easily they can corrupt and sway those of a lesser thought.

[rfirth]

KillTheIrishman, on 30 April 2012 - 23:27, said:

TY for the welcome! I do have a thick skin. Just seems that others are quick to judge or try to force their opinion on others.

… and that's exactly the point. Religious people are too quick to judge homosexuals and try to force their opinion on them ...

The point is that Christians point to Leviticus as to why homosexuality is wrong, but then ignore the rest of Leviticus. If you yourself are in violation of Leviticus, how can you judge others breaking the rules? If you don't know what I'm talking about, you've probably never read the whole thing yourself.

So practice what you preach. Don't try to force your opinion on others.

Deuteronomy 22:9: Do not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard; if you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled.

Deuteronomy 22:11: Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

Leviticus 11:3: You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.
[Edit: No cows, no pigs, no rabbits, no camels... can't remember what else you can't eat]

Leviticus 11:10: But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales--whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water--you are to detest.
[Nobody here in Louisiana follows this one... Louisianans love their crawfish]

Leviticus 18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

My question to you is... which of these rules do you follow, and which of these do you think are bullsh*t?