91 replies to this topic 1 votes

[BajiRav]

Dashel, on 05 February 2013 - 17:19, said:

As I mentioned on the news item, that Mac users (and others that get all zomgz over keyboard shortcuts) like Win8 'more' is all the evidence I need that something is wrong.

Secondly, your use of third party tools defeats your position because (we assume, you never actually made a point other than several terrible comparisons) of the same annoyances many others have found - the inability to 'stay' in the Desktop space for basic operations (like search).

Pretty weak comparison, I expected more.

What kind of evidence is that?
About Search, Win8 search doesn't push you out of the "desktop space" (whatever that means). You get more results on screen than Win7- and you get right back where you started once you click a result. Why is it a problem again?
I mean unless you are a "power user" or a "Real multi-tasker" who has 3 monitors with 1 of them playing a game (left hand+left eye), 1 playing songs(both ears) and a video(right ear+ 1/2 of right eye) and third monitor with 53 browser tabs (1/4 of right eye) and is searching in start menu (right hand + 1/4 of right eye)
- rest all should be able to search and use it just fine, right?

[CSharp.]

BajiRav, on 05 February 2013 - 18:46, said:

Win8 search doesn't push you out of the "desktop space"

That sure is what it looks like though...Actual screenshot:

Attached Images

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[Dashel]

Ah, more Dot flamebait.

Searching is done on the RT and not Desktop side of the fence (due to the killing of classic Start with no Spotlight addition) and THAT is largely the issue - being flipped into a completely different environment to complete tasks that should be able to be performed FROM the Desktop space!

How have we been posting and debating this for months now and yet some still can't conceive of the fence between RT and the Desktop 'app'? That you somehow still don't get that you return MORE results in Win7 search than 8 (FFS) yet want to continue this charade of a 'serious' debate?!

[Dot Matrix]

Dashel, on 05 February 2013 - 19:03, said:

Ah, more Dot flamebait.

Searching is done on the RT and not Desktop side of the fence (due to the killing of classic Start with no Spotlight addition) and THAT is largely the issue - being flipped into a completely different environment to complete tasks that should be able to be performed FROM the Desktop space!

How have we been posting and debating this for months now and yet some still can't conceive of the fence between RT and the Desktop 'app'? That you somehow still don't get that you return MORE results in Win7 search than 8 (FFS) yet want to continue this charade of a 'serious' debate?!

So? That's what Windows 8 is about: Metro. It's the introduction of the new Windows going forward. Why is it hard for you to tap the Windows key, type what you're looking for, and move on? There's nothing more to it. There's no rough or "scary" transitions to it, not to mention, the desktop is no more than ONE mouse click away at all times, and if what you are searching for belongs on the desktop, you'll be returned to it without any hesitation from the OS. I think users can do without being "on" the desktop for the 5 seconds it will take you to search.

Windows 8 search still works the same way as Windows 7 search, it's just split up into different screens. In fact, Search is even more powerful since Metro apps can tie into it.


EDIT: You still have the Search Bar in Explorer on the desktop side of things, but the system wide search is Metro, and rightly so. Can you imagine desktop search on a tablet?

[CSharp.]

Dot Matrix, on 05 February 2013 - 19:27, said:

Windows 8 search still works the same way as Windows 7 search, it's just split up into different screens.

So really it doesn't work the same way at all.

[Dot Matrix]

CSharp., on 05 February 2013 - 19:31, said:

So really it doesn't work the same way at all.

Does it still search your system? If yes (And YES, it does), than it still works the same as 7.

[Dashel]

And Desktop apps can't tie in, durka durka. Win8 being about 'Metro' does zero, ziltch, for the Desktop workflow which is the comparison. I know you guys are in a coma but come on. Having a small, windowed, and unified search in the Desktop space is somehow equivalent to a itemized full-screen, non-Desktop aware one? You are simply mad if you are that disconnected from reality.

The simple fact remains Dot that if you had an ounce of reason and honesty to your bat**** crazy theory, you would have addressed the numerous false comparisons the OP made instead of blathering off my comment.

How disingenous do you have to be to declare anything that searches is necessarily 'the same' despite all evidence to the contrary?

[Dot Matrix]

Dashel, on 05 February 2013 - 19:35, said:

Win8 being about 'Metro' does zero, ziltch for the Desktop workflow which is the comparison.

The simple fact remains Dot that if you had an ounce of reason and honesty to your bat**** crazy theory, you would have addressed the numerous false comparisons the OP made instead of dumping your factoid off my comment.

The "Desktop workflow" remains largely unchanged. So, you now have a full screen Start. Boo hoo. It still remains more functional then the Start Menu ever would be.

Also, what false comparisons by the OP? He's spot on.

[Dashel]

^ More proof in the pudding folks!

Keep pushing the lie about it being more functional, yet only comparing it to the classic menu and not the menu+Desktop combination. It gives you soo much credibility...

[Dot Matrix]

Dashel, on 05 February 2013 - 19:47, said:

^ More proof in the pudding folks!

Keep pushing the lie about it being more functional, yet only comparing it to the classic menu and not the menu+Desktop combination. It gives you soo much credibility...

What lie? Start+Search remains more functional in Windows 8 than it is in 7. If you want to see where my comparisons are, do a search on Neowin. I have a post going back some about why I think Microsoft was right to kill off the menu, it was featured on the front page.

EDIT: Here it is.

But if you drill down to it, there is nothing wrong with Search being on the Metro side. There is nothing wrong with Metro on the desktop in the first place. It adds functionality to PCs that the legacy GUI would never have brought.


(Also, your ad hominem doesn't help your cause.)

[BajiRav]

Dashel, on 05 February 2013 - 19:35, said:

And Desktop apps can't tie in, durka durka. Win8 being about 'Metro' does zero, ziltch, for the Desktop workflow which is the comparison. I know you guys are in a coma but come on. Having a small, windowed, and unified search in the Desktop space is somehow equivalent to a itemized full-screen, non-Desktop aware one? You are simply mad if you are that disconnected from reality.

The simple fact remains Dot that if you had an ounce of reason and honesty to your bat**** crazy theory, you would have addressed the numerous false comparisons the OP made instead of blathering off my comment.

How disingenous do you have to be to declare anything that searches is necessarily 'the same' despite all evidence to the contrary?

1. The Win7 desktop search (i guess you mean start menu?) doesn't show nearly as many items as Win8 does.
2. Why do you even want the desktop apps to be search charm aware if you don't want to use it?

This screenshot is from my work pc, why is this particularly bad from Win7? (besides it is full screen which IMO is overblown. It's neither worse nor better depending on your workflow.)

[Dashel]

1) While the total number listed items may be more, its hardly in a more readable format (B) nor does it auto-organize apps/categories so time to find is marginally longer, not shorter. When searching, less is more. (Or in the case of classic, a series of less)
1B) The scaling issue with Metro is that as the display size increases, compounding columns and rows does not make it easier for a person to scan. Having more items to parse makes it harder in the absence of intelligent grouping. (A trade of too much un-ordered visibility vs the 'hidden' nature of classic items if unfamiliar with organizational scheme)

2) Could care less about the Charm (or the route 'to' search) other than it invading day to day operation. It is simply the question as to why a Desktop oriented user cares about searching in apps they don't use, to the exclusion of ones they do, with more UI manipulation and distraction.

Would you honestly say that file browsing (per your sshot) is better accomplished in RT or Explorer? That all but the most novice of users would pick the latter is the sentiment many share.

Compare that progression to OS X's Spotlight and the bar is lower, not higher. (Even though, much like the Mac, it requires keyboard shortcuts to fully utilize)

The need for many keyboard shortcuts are the domain of users with bad mice and simplistic UIs - so Mac users 'getting along' with 8 is less surprising, but not encouraging.

[BajiRav]

Dashel, on 05 February 2013 - 20:32, said:

1) While the total number listed items may be more, its hardly in a more readable format (B) nor does it auto-organize apps/categories so time to find is marginally longer, not shorter. When searching, less is more. (Or in the case of classic, a series of less)
1B) The scaling issue with Metro is that as the display size increases, compounding columns and rows does not make it easier for a person to scan. Having more items to parse makes it harder in the absence of intelligent grouping. (A trade of too much un-ordered visibility vs the 'hidden' nature of classic items if unfamiliar with organizational scheme)

2) Could care less about the Charm (or the route 'to' search) other than it invading day to day operation. It is simply the question as to why a Desktop oriented user cares about searching in apps they don't use, to the exclusion of ones they do, with more UI manipulation and distraction.

Would you honestly say that file browsing (per your sshot) is better accomplished in RT or Explorer? That all but the most novice of users would pick the latter is the sentiment many share.

Compare that progression to OS X's Spotlight and the bar is lower, not higher. (Even though, much like the Mac, it requires keyboard shortcuts to fully utilize)

The need for many keyboard shortcuts are the domain of users with bad mice and simplistic UIs - so Mac users 'getting along' with 8 is less surprising, but not encouraging.

I don't use the shown screen for file browsing, most of the times I get hits in what is shown on the first screen, I click and go back to work. The built in filters (as shown) are handy if the results are larger, which is rare because I habitually add the kind: etc. filters. Keep in mind that my file index is not very small and probably more than what most users will have on their systems.

[Javik]

Given how many people are downloading start menu replacements, I'd hardly say the desktop has been made legacy at all, it's clear to me people still want to use it. I'm pretty sure Stardock said Start 8 had been downloaded more than a million times and that was back in November. The maker of StartIsBack has just gone over 200k downloads. And since Windows 8 the charity I volunteer for has had 4 or 5 people come in now that I can recall that were confused by Windows 8 and wanted help getting their heads around it. In fact I've yet to come across a single member of the public or volunteer team that's had a single positive thing to say about it since it got released. The traditional desktop is not obsolete, nor will it ever be as long as people want to actually multitask.

Dot Matrix, on 05 February 2013 - 19:27, said:

EDIT: You still have the Search Bar in Explorer on the desktop side of things, but the system wide search is Metro, and rightly so. Can you imagine desktop search on a tablet?

Why should I give a toss what people do on a tablet? I use a desktop PC. I don't appreciate throwing away functionality to appease people with overpriced tinkertoys.

[Dot Matrix]

Javik, on 05 February 2013 - 23:46, said:

Why should I give a toss what people do on a tablet? I use a desktop PC. I don't appreciate throwing away functionality to appease people with overpriced tinkertoys.

You should care, because there is coming a time where that desktop PC of yours will become one with the mobile tech around us. Windows 8 is the first step in that direction. Ala LCARS.

Give the WinRT API time to mature, say 5-7 years, and you have people forgetting all about the Win32 desktop. It's junk. Too much junk clogging it up. WinRT is the new way forward. Personally, I already have been able to move half my workload over to the Metro side already. I'm a student, and all my notes, communications, research projects, and homework can be done with Metro.