Windows 8 From a Mac User's perspective

[BajiRav]

And Desktop apps can't tie in, durka durka. Win8 being about 'Metro' does zero, ziltch, for the Desktop workflow which is the comparison. I know you guys are in a coma but come on. Having a small, windowed, and unified search in the Desktop space is somehow equivalent to a itemized full-screen, non-Desktop aware one? You are simply mad if you are that disconnected from reality.

The simple fact remains Dot that if you had an ounce of reason and honesty to your bat**** crazy theory, you would have addressed the numerous false comparisons the OP made instead of blathering off my comment.

How disingenous do you have to be to declare anything that searches is necessarily 'the same' despite all evidence to the contrary?

1. The Win7 desktop search (i guess you mean start menu?) doesn't show nearly as many items as Win8 does.

2. Why do you even want the desktop apps to be search charm aware if you don't want to use it?

This screenshot is from my work pc, why is this particularly bad from Win7? (besides it is full screen which IMO is overblown. It's neither worse nor better depending on your workflow.)

[Dashel]

1) While the total number listed items may be more, its hardly in a more readable format (B) nor does it auto-organize apps/categories so time to find is marginally longer, not shorter. When searching, less is more. (Or in the case of classic, a series of less)

1B) The scaling issue with Metro is that as the display size increases, compounding columns and rows does not make it easier for a person to scan. Having more items to parse makes it harder in the absence of intelligent grouping. (A trade of too much un-ordered visibility vs the 'hidden' nature of classic items if unfamiliar with organizational scheme)

2) Could care less about the Charm (or the route 'to' search) other than it invading day to day operation. It is simply the question as to why a Desktop oriented user cares about searching in apps they don't use, to the exclusion of ones they do, with more UI manipulation and distraction.

Would you honestly say that file browsing (per your sshot) is better accomplished in RT or Explorer? That all but the most novice of users would pick the latter is the sentiment many share.

Compare that progression to OS X's Spotlight and the bar is lower, not higher. (Even though, much like the Mac, it requires keyboard shortcuts to fully utilize)

The need for many keyboard shortcuts are the domain of users with bad mice and simplistic UIs - so Mac users 'getting along' with 8 is less surprising, but not encouraging.

[BajiRav]

1) While the total number listed items may be more, its hardly in a more readable format (B) nor does it auto-organize apps/categories so time to find is marginally longer, not shorter. When searching, less is more. (Or in the case of classic, a series of less)

1B) The scaling issue with Metro is that as the display size increases, compounding columns and rows does not make it easier for a person to scan. Having more items to parse makes it harder in the absence of intelligent grouping. (A trade of too much un-ordered visibility vs the 'hidden' nature of classic items if unfamiliar with organizational scheme)

2) Could care less about the Charm (or the route 'to' search) other than it invading day to day operation. It is simply the question as to why a Desktop oriented user cares about searching in apps they don't use, to the exclusion of ones they do, with more UI manipulation and distraction.

Would you honestly say that file browsing (per your sshot) is better accomplished in RT or Explorer? That all but the most novice of users would pick the latter is the sentiment many share.

Compare that progression to OS X's Spotlight and the bar is lower, not higher. (Even though, much like the Mac, it requires keyboard shortcuts to fully utilize)

The need for many keyboard shortcuts are the domain of users with bad mice and simplistic UIs - so Mac users 'getting along' with 8 is less surprising, but not encouraging.

I don't use the shown screen for file browsing, most of the times I get hits in what is shown on the first screen, I click and go back to work. The built in filters (as shown) are handy if the results are larger, which is rare because I habitually add the kind: etc. filters. Keep in mind that my file index is not very small and probably more than what most users will have on their systems.

[Noir Angel]

Given how many people are downloading start menu replacements, I'd hardly say the desktop has been made legacy at all, it's clear to me people still want to use it. I'm pretty sure Stardock said Start 8 had been downloaded more than a million times and that was back in November. The maker of StartIsBack has just gone over 200k downloads. And since Windows 8 the charity I volunteer for has had 4 or 5 people come in now that I can recall that were confused by Windows 8 and wanted help getting their heads around it. In fact I've yet to come across a single member of the public or volunteer team that's had a single positive thing to say about it since it got released. The traditional desktop is not obsolete, nor will it ever be as long as people want to actually multitask.

EDIT: You still have the Search Bar in Explorer on the desktop side of things, but the system wide search is Metro, and rightly so. Can you imagine desktop search on a tablet?

Why should I give a toss what people do on a tablet? I use a desktop PC. I don't appreciate throwing away functionality to appease people with overpriced tinkertoys.

[Dot Matrix]

Why should I give a toss what people do on a tablet? I use a desktop PC. I don't appreciate throwing away functionality to appease people with overpriced tinkertoys.

You should care, because there is coming a time where that desktop PC of yours will become one with the mobile tech around us. Windows 8 is the first step in that direction. Ala LCARS.

Give the WinRT API time to mature, say 5-7 years, and you have people forgetting all about the Win32 desktop. It's junk. Too much junk clogging it up. WinRT is the new way forward. Personally, I already have been able to move half my workload over to the Metro side already. I'm a student, and all my notes, communications, research projects, and homework can be done with Metro.

[Noir Angel]

Not for me it won't. I use products that actually have some use to me, not just because they're the "in" fad of the time.

[MFH]

Ala LCARS.

Stop referencing Star Trek it just makes you look more ridiculous...

Give the WinRT API time to mature, say 5-7 years, and you have people forgetting all about the Win32 desktop.

Considering how Microsoft manages to create and kill frameworks WinRT may already be replaced by "the new thing" by then...

It's junk. Too much junk clogging it up.

How so? 'cause it's not limited to limited dual-tasking?

WinRT is the new way forward. Personally, I already have been able to move half my workload over to the Metro side already. I'm a student, and all my notes, communications, research projects, and homework can be done with Metro.

I've seen students that don't have a need for any computer...

First start doing real work - in the private sector - and we'll talk...

[Dot Matrix]

Stop referencing Star Trek it just makes you look more ridiculous...

No.

Considering how Microsoft manages to create and kill frameworks WinRT may already be replaced by "the new thing" by then...

Maybe, maybe not. Win32 is finally being killed off after how many years for a better API?

How so? 'cause it's not limited to limited dual-tasking?

Many of the popular desktop apps install so much junk, and services (updaters, auto initializers, etc. AKA JUNK.) that degrade performance over time. WinRT apps can't do that. I would love to see Win32 killed off completely for this reason.

I've seen students that don't have a need for any computer...

First start doing real work - in the private sector - and we'll talk...

I do do real work. My workflow is unchanged from Windows 7 to Windows 8. The only difference is, I'm taking advantage of the Metro apps on the PCs I have.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

Win32 is finally being killed off after how many years for a better API?

Except it isn't being killed off at all. In fact, even WinRT is building on top of Win32. At this point it isn't clear at all what Microsoft sees as their path to the future, or whether they've even decided yet.

[threetonesun]

Why should I give a toss what people do on a tablet? I use a desktop PC. I don't appreciate throwing away functionality to appease people with overpriced tinkertoys.

I don't understand comments like this, unless you've never used Windows 8.

I push the start button, then click on an icon which launches a program, same as Windows always has. It opens on my desktop. If I never wanted to see Metro, I never would, although I happen to find some apps, which I would already run full screen, more enjoyable on the Metro side.

[tim_s]

My question is, Why would you want to know Windows 8 from a Mac users perspective? In my opinion the goal of both companies GUI is different unless you over simplify it. Bringing Windows 8 into our company was a nightmare - Customer Services adopted it easily but the Technical teams refuse "almost" to unbox the machines. The world needs to try new ideas IF not to directly make use of the innovations than to branch off from them to a usable product.

Has anyone watched what Metro could accomplish before Microsoft implemented it into their OS? - We have a lot of playing room to get this right.

[Dashel]

Most of the times I get hits in what is shown on the first screen, I click and go back to work.

I get that, but to say that there is zero change of moving in and out of RT when searching is a bit dishonest.

Maybe, maybe not. Win32 is finally being killed off after how many years for a better API?

Many of the popular desktop apps install so much junk, and services (updaters, auto initializers, etc. AKA JUNK.) that degrade performance over time. WinRT apps can't do that. I would love to see Win32 killed off completely for this reason.

You are still the only one declaring that WinRT is a Win32 replacement instead of some future Win128RTFTW. Again, if you truly believe this then start responding to the OP because his observations and conclusions don't fit with your theory. (Or your poorly written, sourced, and reasoned article - your entire premise was flawed and filled with strawmen.)

That last part is really where I can only continue to (gut) laugh at Dot. Seems pretty typical of the apologists, and Mac users, that just because they can't operate something more complex, that it should be taken out behind the shed and shot. They only ride their horses to town.

OMG, I can't choose or manage my apps, they put stuff all over my system. I also get viruses all the time because evil Win32 can run any code I tell it to! I need a padded room where I can't hurt myself!! NO SHARP CORNERS!!!

[BajiRav]

You should care, because there is coming a time where that desktop PC of yours will become one with the mobile tech around us. Windows 8 is the first step in that direction. Ala LCARS.

Give the WinRT API time to mature, say 5-7 years, and you have people forgetting all about the Win32 desktop. It's junk. Too much junk clogging it up. WinRT is the new way forward. Personally, I already have been able to move half my workload over to the Metro side already. I'm a student, and all my notes, communications, research projects, and homework can be done with Metro.

uh...WinRT sits on top of Win32 in Windows 8 at least.

I've seen students that don't have a need for any computer...

First start doing real work - in the private sector - and we'll talk...

Sure, let's talk.

I get that, but to say that there is zero change of moving in and out of RT when searching is a bit dishonest.

Obviously there is some change but nothing that requires major re-learning of what I did prior to Win8. I mean going by few posts around here it feels as if Windows 8 requires you to press Winkey with your right thumb and you mouse with your left leg, stand upside down on your head while singing "LA LA LA LA" or something like that. :p

[Dashel]

Sometimes Baji, its the repeated small abrasions that cause more trauma than acute ones. ;)

How Win8 Desktop users feel at times:

[Dot Matrix]

uh...WinRT sits on top of Win32 in Windows 8 at least.

Win32 also sat ontop of DOS for a bit too, before DOS was stripped away. ;)

You are still the only one declaring that WinRT is a Win32 replacement instead of some future Win128RTFTW.

Nope: http://winsupersite....urface-strategy

"Surface with Windows RT represents a future in which the Windows desktop is first deprecated and then removed, where Windows itself settles firmly and solely into the Metro mobile environment."

If you ask me, SoC and ARM technology will work its way over to desktop and laptop systems. It'll allow computer technology to move forward in ways x86 can't (look at the Surface RT compared to the Surface Pro). If I was a betting man, I'd say right now, we're witnessing the final days of x86 hardware. SoC and ARM allows for smaller, more power efficient systems. And for that, you'll see more use of WinRT compared to Win32.

[f0rk_b0mb]

Many of the popular desktop apps install so much junk, and services (updaters, auto initializers, etc. AKA JUNK.) that degrade performance over time. WinRT apps can't do that. I would love to see Win32 killed off completely for this reason.

Sweet Mother of God, C'mon! Really? That junk is on your machine because you choose to install it. You left that check box checked to install toolbars, auto updaters, ect.

Metro, at its current state, will NEVER replace win32. Let's see your tablet play Crysis 3. VMware? Can it be a server? Dropping Win32 is the STUPIDEST thing Microsoft can do. And if they do go ahead with it, I can guarantee you, the tech savvy crowd will move to Linux and OS X. (No, I'm not trolling Windows users. I'm being realistic.) Metro doesn't even have a native file manager!!! Windows Explorer is win32! You're up here talking all this bull with absolutely NO ground.

With that being said, It's OK to like Metro. I get it: You want a front end, pretty shiny app, rather than trudging through directories of files. That's fine. I personally like trudging dir's. I have more control over what I can do. So let us be. /end rant

[Dot Matrix]

Sweet Mother of God, C'mon! Really? That junk is on your machine because you choose to install it. You left that check box checked to install toolbars, auto updaters, ect.

I don't install extras. No toolbars, nothing. But I'm still left with junk services (Skype, Google, and Adobe being the big offenders) that run in the background clogging my system. I recently disabled Google updater, Mozilla Maintenance Service, Skype updater, etc, etc. that was running at startup. It's all complete junk that just doesn't need to be there.

Metro, at its current state, will NEVER replace win32. Let's see your tablet play Crysis 3. VMware? Can it be a server? Dropping Win32 is the STUPIDEST thing Microsoft can do. And if they do go ahead with it, I can guarantee you, the tech savvy crowd will move to Linux and OS X. (No, I'm not trolling Windows users. I'm being realistic.) Metro doesn't even have a native file manager!!! Windows Explorer is win32! You're up here talking all this bull with absolutely NO ground.

The same thing was once said about the desktop compared to the CLI. You want to cling to the desktop, but what is the desktop going to do for us in the future? It's the wrong environment for any kind of future technology. It can't work with touch, it can't work with motion, and it can't work with mobile. Metro will evolve to be a more complete environment that can take over for the legacy desktop. You can move to OS X, but when iOS is already pretty much Apple's bread and butter, it's not going to do you much good.

With that being said, It's OK to like Metro. I get it: You want a front end, pretty shiny app, rather than trudging through directories of files. That's fine. I personally like trudging dir's. I have more control over what I can do. So let us be. /end rant

Great, but you're a dying breed. Hell, I don't even know anyone who still uses that term. "Folders" is all I hear today. I cringe when I hear outdated terms like that.

[+virtorio MVC]

The view below is my #1 issue with the Start Screen. If they made this easier to navigate, and easier to get to (is there an easier way then me having to right click and click All Apps?) then I'd be much happier about Windows 8.

[dead.cell]

Great, but you're a dying breed. Hell, I don't even know anyone who still uses that term. "Folders" is all I hear today. I cringe when I hear outdated terms like that.

What a ridiculous statement. Most people don't know half the technical terminology, calling their web browser the Internet. Let's just forget all the terminology while we're at it, since nobody uses it. :rolleyes:

[Dashel]

Nope: http://winsupersite....urface-strategy

"Surface with Windows RT represents a future in which the Windows desktop is first deprecated and then removed, where Windows itself settles firmly and solely into the Metro mobile environment."

If you ask me, SoC and ARM technology will work its way over to desktop and laptop systems. It'll allow computer technology to move forward in ways x86 can't, we're witnessing the final days of x86 hardware so you'll see more use of WinRT compared to Win32.

First off, you are twisting Paul's point, since he's finished that sentiment multiple times, "Windows RT is not a computer operating system. Windows RT is an operating system for mobile devices." (The more direct reading is, "Surface with Windows RT represents a future...where Windows itself settles firmly and solely into the mobile environment.) If you are going to quote him, then you can't just pick and choose. He never said replacement.

Maybe that is part of the Win8/Mac dilemma - anyone that gung-ho for killing the Desktop is probably a RISC fanboy who is still ****ed that Apple switched over. I mean, like Metro, what specification or feature makes ARM enticing on the Desktop?

So the truth finally comes out. All your blathering and flamebait all this time in the Win8 threads is simply because you are an ARM fanboy? Good to know its never been about Metro but about the processor.

[Dashel]

I agree vitorio, that view does suck. I think it would have be much easier to transition if they wouldn't have dorked with the (non-customizable) sorting. In Windows Explorer, icons are arranged left to right, then top to bottom. In Metro, they flipped it to top to bottom then left to right - which makes sense for more vertically oriented screens (like WP) but is contradictory on 16:9 widescreen aspects of the Desktop and even the Surface.

In fact, I haven't seen such terrible view options since the Finder...

[Noir Angel]

I don't understand comments like this, unless you've never used Windows 8.

I push the start button, then click on an icon which launches a program, same as Windows always has. It opens on my desktop. If I never wanted to see Metro, I never would, although I happen to find some apps, which I would already run full screen, more enjoyable on the Metro side.

That's probably because my computer usage is defined by my personal standards, and not other people's.

[Order_66]

Given how many people are downloading start menu replacements, I'd hardly say the desktop has been made legacy at all, it's clear to me people still want to use it. I'm pretty sure Stardock said Start 8 had been downloaded more than a million times and that was back in November. The maker of StartIsBack has just gone over 200k downloads

Indeed, and i just got word yesterday that one of the makers of a popular start menu replacement is trying very hard to enter into an agreement with our stores and one OEM to have their start menu pre-installed and set as default for windows 8 because pc sales have taken such a horrible turn for the worse since windows 8 was released, this is only for certain models but covers over 50% of projected sales.

If it happens I'm sure sales would be given a much needed boost.

[Dot Matrix]

First off, you are twisting Paul's point, since he's finished that sentiment multiple times, "Windows RT is not a computer operating system. Windows RT is an operating system for mobile devices." (The more direct reading is, "Surface with Windows RT represents a future...where Windows itself settles firmly and solely into the mobile environment.) If you are going to quote him, then you can't just pick and choose. He never said replacement.

Maybe that is part of the Win8/Mac dilemma - anyone that gung-ho for killing the Desktop is probably a RISC fanboy who is still ****ed that Apple switched over. I mean, like Metro, what specification or feature makes ARM enticing on the Desktop?

So the truth finally comes out. All your blathering and flamebait all this time in the Win8 threads is simply because you are an ARM fanboy? Good to know its never been about Metro but about the processor.

Windows RT can be a computer OS. Leave it mature for a few years, and it has the potential to rival the OSs of today. I would love to have a Windows RT powered laptop as my next machine. Windows RT and SoC can also make for some interesting desktop PCs as well.

If I was you, I'd open up to what can be, before you lash out and attack others over their words. Eitherway, it won't matter, as Microsoft still is carrying forth Metro on all platforms.

[Noir Angel]

A PC watered down, forced into Modern UI and with a fraction of the hardware power I currently have? no thanks.