152 posts in this topic

There was never any option to switch it on, though. You had the Start Menu and that was it.

I know...right?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/142255 "This article describes how to use Program Manager as the shell in Windows 95/98 and Windows Millennium Edition (Me)."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bb-TooManyToolbars.jpgpost-446153-0-58517700-1366490801.png

Yes, I can see where you would see the similarities...

(Providing of course you'd taken a significantly large enough hit of strong narcotics)

There was never any option to switch it on, though. You had the Start Menu and that was it.

Regardless, purposely removing all the code (in Blue) to stop people even using a third party start menu is a completely dickish move straight out of the Apple "ALL YOUR COMPUTERZ R BELONG TO US" book.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless, purposely removing all the code (in Blue) to stop people even using a third party start menu is a completely dickish move straight out of the Apple "ALL YOUR COMPUTERZ R BELONG TO US" book.

Can you prove that they deliberately removed code just to break 3rd-party start menus? Why do you think that they should maintain code just to benefit unsupported hacks?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given how hard they're trying to force everyone to use the start screen I just don't believe that it's a coincidence, but then I've never felt the need to maintain position as an apologist. The only effect removing the code could possibly have had was to stop start menu apps from working as I've seen no performance benefits thus far in the leaked builds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They did, actually. There were people who complained that Program Manager was superior.

I don't think you were born yet.

The revisionist history about people complaining about Windows 95 in the same number as what's happened with Windows 8 is completely untrue. The complaints about Windows 8 are voluminous and legitimate. And you know what - even if they weren't, only arrogant fools would answer customer complaints by condescendingly lecturing them to "Deal with it", "Get used to it" and "You're too stupid to keep up with the times." How foolish is the Windows team to have taken this approach in response to the avalanche of complaints about this compromised mess of an operating system? (And how foolish are you to mimic that approach on the Neowin boards? You're not convincing anyone of anything.)

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given how hard they're trying to force everyone to use the start screen I just don't believe that it's a coincidence, but then I've never felt the need to maintain position as an apologist. The only effect removing the code could possibly have had was to stop start menu apps from working as I've seen no performance benefits thus far in the leaked builds.

Can you share the code (since you obviously have access to it) so we can judge for ourselves?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know...right?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/142255 "This article describes how to use Program Manager as the shell in Windows 95/98 and Windows Millennium Edition (Me)."

Awesome! I didn't know you could do that all the way up to WinME...

win95progman.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You realize the new start button wont be the same at previous versions of Windows, its not going to have a full blow menu, it's just going to be a short cut to the start screen.

Which is already there.. I don't understand the logic.. you move your mouse to the bottom left corner, and click.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you share the code (since you obviously have access to it) so we can judge for ourselves?

Nope. I just draw my own conclusions based on the evidence provided. I'm just not doing so from the position of apologist (admittedly a confusing position for some of Neowin's members I understand). I'm just prepared to draw the conclusions you're obviously not. I'm sure if Apple did the same thing people like you would pile up to heap scorn on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No you don't. I can click anywhere on the desktop, I can click anywhere in Firefox or Internet Explorer, I can click anywhere in Word.

The desktop background, web page or document in word is the object. You don't right click the desktop to start a program, change your printer settings, or play a game of minesweeper, you do it to see contextual options for the Desktop, the web page or the document you're working with. You right click an icon, you see contextual options for the selected icon, not the desktop, you right click a link in a browser, you see options for that link, not the web page, you right click a paragraph, you see options for that instead, you right click the toolbar in word, you see options for the toolbar, not the document.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dickish move straight out of the Apple "ALL YOUR COMPUTERZ R BELONG TO US" book.

In all fairness, Apple have added a bunch of features to OSX that could be considered "tablet like" (full screen apps, launchpad, a ton of mouse gestures, Mission Control), and they did it by integrating them in the current platform, without breaking the existing UI model and actually making them (well most them, not Launchpad) useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope. I just draw my own conclusions based on the evidence provided. I'm just not doing so from the position of apologist (admittedly a confusing position for some of Neowin's members I understand). I'm just prepared to draw the conclusions you're obviously not. I'm sure if Apple did the same thing people like you would pile up to heap scorn on them.

So, once again, all you have to offer are meaningless, baseless accusations and personal attacks. I don't know why you keep on bringing up Apple but I don't bother posting about their products because I don't use them. I have better things to do than waste my time hating on things for no reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think you were born yet.

The revisionist history about people complaining about Windows 95 in the same number as what's happened with Windows 8 is completely untrue. The complaints about Windows 8 are voluminous and legitimate. And you know what - even if they weren't, only arrogant fools would answer customer complaints by condescendingly lecturing them to "Deal with it", "Get used to it" and "You're too stupid to keep up with the times." How foolish is the Windows team to have taken this approach in response to the avalanche of complaints about this compromised mess of an operating system? (And how foolish are you to mimic that approach on the Neowin boards? You're not convincing anyone of anything.)

It appears they were projecting a deleterious internal corporate culture onto customers. Hopefully that culture left with Sinofsky but those under his tutelage, who benefited internally from that culture, will try to keep the regime alive, that's how it always is when a dictator dies, sometimes you have to destroy the dictator and all of his offspring to bring peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont agree, just because I have a car doesnt mean I should travel further in order to get to the same destination.

Just because you have a car doesn't mean you should use the car to go from one room to another either.

In case of start screen, targets are further but bigger. So it is easier to reach + helps with touch.

In case of start menu, targets are closer but smaller. So it is relatively harder to reach + bad for touch.

They did, actually. There were people who complained that Program Manager was superior.

I also had a college professor complain DAILY about computer GUIs, and that they should have been optional.

And people ridiculed mouse (that these Win8 haters so fond of).

I know plenty of people who clung on to WindowsXP instead of moving to Windows 7 for a long long time. One person's reason was Windows 7 takes longer time to shutdown. :sigh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The desktop background, web page or document in word is the object. You don't right click the desktop to start a program, change your printer settings, or play a game of minesweeper, you do it to see contextual options for the Desktop, the web page or the document you're working with. You right click an icon, you see contextual options for the selected icon, not the desktop, you right click a link in a browser, you see options for that link, not the web page, you right click a paragraph, you see options for that instead, you right click the toolbar in word, you see options for the toolbar, not the document.

Move your mouse to a corner, this so called "object" will be there.

I don't get the deal about difficulty of telling people about the start button over phone. Simply tell them: "Press the Home Button on the keyboard. It is near your spacebar, has a windows logo on it." Simple enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Move your mouse to a corner, this so called "object" will be there.

I don't get the deal about difficulty of telling people about the start button over phone. Simply tell them: "Press the Home Button on the keyboard. It is near your spacebar, has a windows logo on it." Simple enough.

Some honestly will still not get it. Which is why I think it's hopeless regardless of whether there's a button or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are already plenty of things that conflict with hot corners on the desktop. Every maximized application has its close button in a corner. They're also very easy to hit by accident because any wide, imprecise movement of the cursor tends to send it in a corner. Overall, it's a just a terrible idea for mouse users, and offers no clear benefit compared to what was available on the start menu. It's one of the many examples in Windows 8 where Microsoft doesn't understand (or doesn't want to understand) that different input devices require different UIs, or to put it another way, that you can't optimize for 2 conflicting sets of requirements at the same time.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For example, I use Trillian and I like to keep the contact list auto-hidden on the right edge of the screen. What gets shown in my case, Trillian, the charms bar or both?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are already plenty of things that conflict with hot corners on the desktop. Every maximized application has its close button in a corner. They're also very easy to hit by accident because any wide, imprecise movement of the cursor tends to send it in a corner. Overall, it's a just a terrible idea for mouse users, and offers no clear benefit compared to what was available on the start menu. It's one of the many examples in Windows 8 where Microsoft doesn't understand (or doesn't want to understand) that different input devices require different UIs, or to put it another way, that you can't optimize for 2 conflicting sets of requirements at the same time.

The close button isn't a problem because the top right hot corner doesn't activate the Charms bar with a mouse click.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The close button isn't a problem because the top right hot corner doesn't activate the Charms bar with a mouse click.

You still get the preview. It doesn't prevent you from closing the window but it's still not something you wanted to see appear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You still get the preview. It doesn't prevent you from closing the window but it's still not something you wanted to see appear.

That's a pretty trivial concern. It does no harm, only appears for a fraction of a second and is transparent so the end result is that four icons briefly appear and then disappear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a pretty trivial concern. It does no harm, only appears for a fraction of a second and is transparent so the end result is that four icons briefly appear and then disappear.

What if you wanted to move your mouse down after that? Now it solidifies and you have to mouse away, wait, and come back to get rid of it. It's just poor design. Nothing on the desktop activates unless you explicitely click on it, the hot corners are inconsistent with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are already plenty of things that conflict with hot corners on the desktop. Every maximized application has its close button in a corner. They're also very easy to hit by accident because any wide, imprecise movement of the cursor tends to send it in a corner. Overall, it's a just a terrible idea for mouse users, and offers no clear benefit compared to what was available on the start menu. It's one of the many examples in Windows 8 where Microsoft doesn't understand (or doesn't want to understand) that different input devices require different UIs, or to put it another way, that you can't optimize for 2 conflicting sets of requirements at the same time.

Hence why they didn't try to make the UIs identical. The corners are only a mouse thing, if they were going for an identical UI you would drag from the edge or whatever. Rather, they're specifically optimized for the mouse and the well-known Fitts' Law property of the corners, but we've been over this before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hence why they didn't try to make the UIs identical. The corners are only a mouse thing, if they were going for an identical UI you would drag from the edge or whatever. Rather, they're specifically optimized for the mouse and the well-known Fitts' Law property of the corners, but we've been over this before.

Well obviously you can't drag from offscreen area with a mouse, thank god they thought about that, otherwise the OS just couldn't be used at all. :rolleyes: And obviously when I say the UI is the same that's not what I'm referring to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Microsoft is just weathering the storm while the apps come and slowly but surely people will be using the Metro apps and most users of Windows 8 will get used to it while they upgrade the OS. That simple and I'm not mad at them for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.