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Why the return of the Start button is far more problematic than _____.

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NightScreams    97

I always felt the Start button should be in the middle. The middle of screen is center of focus, so straight down/up in middle of bar makes more sense imo. In Linux KDE, I moved the menu button to the center of taskbar and seemed much more natural and obvious.

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Tangmeister    4

I can't believe how irrelevant all of your complaints are here.

First, the "desktop users outnumber tablet users" argument: it's like saying in 2002 "Feature phone users outnumber smartphone users, let's keep the slideout keyboard to appease the majority and not make any changes."

The IE toolbar argument is a massive stretch when we're discussing a single button, not rows and rows of buttons.

The idea that missing the 1 pixel hotspot would open the first pinned program is garbage. Anyone who bothered to look at the screenshots instead of blindly complaining about the Start button omission would have noticed that there is deliberately space left as a buffer zone.

Most of the posters here are regrettably just a bunch of self-righteous pricks who think they're UI experts or something. You're not, you're in a forum full of people who are just enthusiasts at most. If you have some sort of GUI-designing degree to wave around, then perhaps you should go consort with Microsoft directly with your credentials or something. This thread is just for discussion, not trying to redefine our entire understanding of UIs as we know it.

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Dot Matrix    7,417

I don't think you were born yet.

Lolz. Been using Windows since 3.11, bud. ;)

The IE toolbar argument is a massive stretch when we're discussing a single button, not rows and rows of buttons.

I used the toolbar image as an example, that not surprisingly, was taken out of context. Nobody bothered to read the post it appeared in.

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PGHammer    1,407

I'm willing to bet numerous people coming off Windows 3.1 complained about the Start button being ADDED to Windows 95.

A lot more complained about the replacement of File Manager with Windows Explorer. (Yes; I'm serious.) However, outnumbering even those was the dismantlement of Program Manager.

Program Manager was the shell of Windows 3.x (and NT 3.x). The desktop (in both versions of Windows) was simply coverable with wallpaper - you couldn't even put shortcuts to ANYTHING on it.

Both 3.x die-hards and NT 3.x fans complained mightily when Windows 95 (and later NT4WS) came to town.

That's why I referred to the *I-don't-wanna-move* brigade. Ask fellow Neowinian Chris123NT about all the grief from NT 3.x die-hards.)

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I am Reid    45

I see it being problematic when users click into Metro apps. They're back to using the Start "Tip", so why break the UX by moving back a button, most won't see anyways? What happens when I dock a Metro app to the left of the screen? Does the new button shimmy its way over, or will it get stuck on the taskbar? There's more to the OS than the desktop, they should be working to unify the different UXs, adding back the visible button to the taskbar will only break it.

post-420821-0-30750300-1366470250.png

It's a bad plan all over. Users already have three start buttons, how many more do they need?

Here's a tip for the loonies on Microsoft's board, let the Windows team do it's job, it's clear they more of a vision than you do.

you're acting like "most" people use the metro apps, sorry, very few people use those things.

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Dot Matrix    7,417

you're acting like "most" people use the metro apps, sorry, very few people use those things.

False. The Windows Store has been very successful with Metro apps.

I use a mix of both daily. I'll usually have Metro Twitter or Metro Skype pinned to the side, while I work elsewhere - both on Metro and desktop apps. Also, where I go to school, the Surface is quite a popular tablet. ;)

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scaramonga    202

It's certainly a step in the right direction :)

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notchinese    311

I will not be turning the start button on. I have no need, unless I am in a VM then I might. Otherwise it is definitely better without it. The developer preview had the start button and it was pointless.

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BajiRav    2,137

I always felt the Start button should be in the middle. The middle of screen is center of focus, so straight down/up in middle of bar makes more sense imo. In Linux KDE, I moved the menu button to the center of taskbar and seemed much more natural and obvious.

Read up on the Fitts' Law.

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freak180    551

False. The Windows Store has been very successful with Metro apps.

I use a mix of both daily. I'll usually have Metro Twitter or Metro Skype pinned to the side, while I work elsewhere - both on Metro and desktop apps. Also, where I go to school, the Surface is quite a popular tablet. ;)

Since when Dot matrix counted for 90% of what people do with Windows 8?? Just because you use most of the metro apps and features doesn't mean everyone else do. So please get that silly mentality out of your head.

Also No OS is perfect. The reason I say this is before I swear to god I have not once saw a post about you not liking anything with Windows 8. Unless you are a fanboy then something isnt right with you. You agree with like everything microsoft does for windows 8. My god, stop acting like the OS is perfect. There is always something to disagree with. There is no reason you have to feel the need to like everything microsoft puts out.

You mention about the school you go to that the surface is popular there? Would that happen to be the same school from this commercial? :rolleyes:

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Xerxes    226

I'm willing to bet numerous people coming off Windows 3.1 complained about the Start button being ADDED to Windows 95.

Invalid argument. Program Manager was included in Win95 as an option for users who didn't want explorer (start menu) and this is the point the Win8 haters are trying to press across. Win8 forces the start screen with no option for legacy users who don't want/need it. I have no problems with the start screen personally but they have a point. How hard is it to include an advanced option in the installer (just like Win95 did, which I actually didn't know about till recently :laugh: ) to give users the choice to have the start button/menu instead of the start screen/modern UI? I still feel the start screen is the way forward and I personally don't miss the start menu but considering MS gave users the choice in the past, why not now?

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Dot Matrix    7,417

Since when Dot matrix counted for 90% of what people do with Windows 8?? Just because you use most of the metro apps and features doesn't mean everyone else do. So please get that silly mentality out of your head.

You mention about the school you go to that the surface is popular there? Would that happen to be the same school from this commercial? :rolleyes:

Considering I attend one of the top tech schools in the US... ;)

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t3chmachine    4

it's a button get over it...Really if you don't care for it then don't use it..

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rwx    17

You realize the new start button wont be the same at previous versions of Windows, its not going to have a full blow menu, it's just going to be a short cut to the start screen.

May I please know where you read this? (assuming the rumors are true about the Stat button come back)

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t3chmachine    4

May I please know where you read this? (assuming the rumors are true about the Stat button come back)

Check out this podcast they talk about it more in detail http://winsupersite....8-starting-over

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freak180    551

Considering I attend one of the top tech schools in the US... ;)

What's your point? Usually the ones that have the highest degrees cant do the simplest things such as change batteries on a wireless mouse or getting their USB drive to work properly on the computer for a lecture or whatever. I worked at many universities and I see the same thing over and over again. Well if we didnt have people like that then there wouldn't be any work for the desktop support employees :rofl:

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jakem1    1,610

Invalid argument. Program Manager was included in Win95 as an option for users who didn't want explorer (start menu) and this is the point the Win8 haters are trying to press across. Win8 forces the start screen with no option for legacy users who don't want/need it. I have no problems with the start screen personally but they have a point. How hard is it to include an advanced option in the installer (just like Win95 did, which I actually didn't know about till recently :laugh: ) to give users the choice to have the start button/menu instead of the start screen/modern UI? I still feel the start screen is the way forward and I personally don't miss the start menu but considering MS gave users the choice in the past, why not now?

That's all well and good but there's another aspect to this argument that's generally overlooked. For years now Microsoft have been attacked for maintaining backward compatibility resulting in a bloated product. Now they make a clean break with the past and drop unnecessary legacy code and they're attacked for not giving users a choice. They really are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

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jakem1    1,610

What if you wanted to move your mouse down after that? Now it solidifies and you have to mouse away, wait, and come back to get rid of it. It's just poor design.

What if? Again, it's a trivial issue and I'm sure you'll learn to avoid this accidentally moving your mouse in this way if you dislike it so much.

Nothing on the desktop activates unless you explicitely click on it, the hot corners are inconsistent with it.

That's not strictly true. When set to autohide, the Taskbar becomes visible based on a mouse move and the Windows Sidebar in Vista reacted to mouse moves as well. Additionally, users are used to mouse moves doing things in applications or on web pages so it's not completely alien.

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rwx    17

Check out this podcast they talk about it more in detail http://winsupersite....8-starting-over

Thx, hmm that would be very disappointing if true. What's the point of having a Start button that doesn't act like one would expect?

I personally am not upgrading until they bring back the real thing and only then I will consider the upgrade.

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LaMelbourne    0

It's problematic for me because Microsoft are in the Catch 22: Damn if they will, Damn if they don't situation. Yes they just listened to the customers, and bringing it back these two options, but they have clearly stepped back from the direction and strategy that they made when they were quite firm about the direction of Windows 8.

Some are going to say that they could have avoided the disaster by just leaving them in and well that's true too.

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Andre S.    1,923

What if? Again, it's a trivial issue and I'm sure you'll learn to avoid this accidentally moving your mouse in this way if you dislike it so much.

The most trivial issues become serious annoyances when you encounter them virtually anytime you interact with a PC.
That's not strictly true. When set to autohide, the Taskbar becomes visible based on a mouse move and the Windows Sidebar in Vista reacted to mouse moves as well. Additionally, users are used to mouse moves doing things in applications or on web pages so it's not completely alien.
The Windows Sidebar was poorly designed and removed in subsequent editions of Windows. Autohide on the taskbar is an advanced, off by default setting that sees little use, in good part because it can be really annoying. Your examples only support my point.

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ViperAFK    797

Users need a physical button. When talking on the phone with users I've asked them to press the windows key. Most always ask me "where is it?"

I have to tell them its in the bottom left of their keyboard. They then reference the screen and I have to tell then again ... "No not the screen, the ACTUAL keyboard".

The current start button is hidden, you shouldn't hide things from the users. I've been saying this the moment they hid the button and I still believe this.

The Microsoft Execs needed to step in because the development team doesn't seem to understand this.

They aren't giving us the entire start menu, just a physical button in the bottom left so users aren't completely lost due to hidden ui elements.

It's going to be a problem for metro apps because once the user gets their physical start button back it's going to spoil them. Then when they access a metro app they finally realize how stupid it is on a desktop to hide all the menu's.

Yeah I do tech support and every single user i've spoken to, without fail, has been completely and utterly confused with windows 8. They don't know where the windows key on the keyboard is, they don't understand keyboard shortcuts, and they definitely do not understand gestures. The average user is totally hopeless and windows 8 makes tech support even more painful than it already was.

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Jim K    12,786

It's so crazy to think that microsoft could've avoided all this crap just by creating a separate/new mobile OS. Instead of trying to force all their users to use a mobile os on a desktop.

yep. I do not buy some remarks that it was to reduce "bloat" and/or complexity. Think it was mostly to steer people towards the Microsoft Store to reap the benefits of application sales like Apple and Google do with their iOS and Android.

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Woelfel    135

Let's get something straight...yes, Windows 8 will be confusing at first as it is newer and different from previous Windows releases. Let's also get something straight...you work in IT...these people who need help will be people who will ALWAYS need help. If you work in IT, you know damn well (as I did) that no matter the task, people will blow your mind on how simple something is to fix and they really should be able to figure it out, especially after you teach them the first, second, and maybe even third time. It's just that Windows 8 is the new thing for you to worry about. Let's also not act like with every new Windows release that IT has to deal with that they get a bunch of calls on how to do a certain task. I just get tired of hearing that argument.

Also, the whole "Windows 8 makes me less productive" act. Stop it. Not one person is being productive every single day at all times at their job. The couple seconds out of your day for finding a setting or opening another application that isn't on your taskbar is NOT killing your productivity. Stop lying. Annoying...yea, sure, that's an opinion. But stopping you from being productive, get real.

The fact of the matter is that Metro side of things isn't 100% done for the desktop equivalents and it is in the forefront of Windows and it's built around touch input first and not keyboard and mouse. Now, people have to go through a tad bit of work to go to desktop, to find an app or setting that they rarely use and not on the desktop. That is what people are mad about. Simple.

</rant>

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ViperAFK    797

Let's get something straight...yes, Windows 8 will be confusing at first as it is newer and different from previous Windows releases. Let's also get something straight...you work in IT...these people who need help will be people who will ALWAYS need help. If you work in IT, you know damn well (as I did) that no matter the task, people will blow your mind on how simple something is to fix and they really should be able to figure it out, especially after you teach them the first, second, and maybe even third time. It's just that Windows 8 is the new thing for you to worry about. Let's also not act like with every new Windows release that IT has to deal with that they get a bunch of calls on how to do a certain task. I just get tired of hearing that argument.

Also, the whole "Windows 8 makes me less productive" act. Stop it. Not one person is being productive every single day at all times at their job. The couple seconds out of your day for finding a setting or opening another application that isn't on your taskbar is NOT killing your productivity. Stop lying. Annoying...yea, sure, that's an opinion. But stopping you from being productive, get real.

The fact of the matter is that Metro side of things isn't 100% done for the desktop equivalents and it is in the forefront of Windows and it's built around touch input first and not keyboard and mouse. Now, people have to go through a tad bit of work to go to desktop, to find an app or setting that they rarely use and not on the desktop. That is what people are mad about. Simple.

</rant>

In my experience customers generally had no issues going from XP > Vista > 7 (well they were at least no less hopeless than they were before), most seemed to prefer 7 to any previous versions, but pretty much everyone I've spoken to is totally confused/strongly dislikes windows 8. I have no problem with it myself and have actually grown to like it [for the most part], but to the average desktop PC user it goes too far out of its way to hide functions behind keyboard shortcuts hot corners and gestures.

I've talked to people that time and time again can't even remember where the [clearly visible] start menu is and other basic functions that were clearly visible. Now that these things are increasingly being hidden it makes it even worse. Elderly people are always the worst offenders here, often racking up many tickets about the exact same thing ("user couldn't figure out how to open internet explorer" and crap like that.)

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