Why didn't MS segregate the tablet UI from the desktop UI?

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

Steve Jobs's RDF seems to have been transferred to the other Steven it seems. If you have a problem with Metro on the Desktop you "don't get it", i.e. "you're holding it wrong".

When they put a UI optimized for tablets on the Desktop, you're told "there is no tablet UI". Actually, that last one reminds me more of Walter Ulbricht claiming "Nobody has the intention of building a wall". Two months later the Berlin Wall is erected. Only, in Metro's case, the wall's already built, for all to see.

[KevinN206]

Even though you can press a keyboard button to get passed the swipe screen, the mere fact the swipe screen is there in the first place shows it is designed for tablets. What need is that intermediary screen other than to add a home screen for tablets? The whole point of that screen is to provide a "slide to unlock" function that is present on iOS. That is plain as day. A tablet doesn't have a physical keyboard which is why that screen goes away when you press a key but that isn't intuitive and the screen shouldn't even be there in the first place on a desktop/notebook.

And if you say the Start Menu is not required then surely Metro which is merely a Start Menu replacement isn't needed either.

Actually, the lockscreen serves a wonderful purpose. I actually like the lockscreen with the giant clock and notifications. The first I know after booting up is any new messages, new mail, new calendar events, etc.. all without logging in. Windows 8 connect to the network very quickly, so it's able to deliver all these notifications pretty much immediately. You would then know if you need to check the mail or not.

[SierraSonic]

A simple fix would be to... Make start orb reappear, click for start menu, long click for start screen.

[Calum Veteran]

[. . .] If you can't see that you're blind. I don't mean to offend you but that's just the facts.

I appreciate you expanding and posting your reasoning for the previous post. But this last comment suggests to me that you don't understand what me or Microsoft are saying. The large tiles and option to swipe in order to access some features are elements of an interface that has been optimised for touch input; however, Microsoft have ensured the interface works just as well with a keyboard and mouse, by including mouse hotspots and keyboard shortcuts. Wherever an element works well with touch, it works just as well with a keyboard and mouse. For example, one is able to swipe up to access the login screen, but they are also able to just press Enter on the keyboard (they have both options, in case they are not using touch input); likewise, the user has the option to swipe from the bottom to access the application bar, but they also have the option of pressing a keyboard shortcut. I have come across no element in Windows 8 that is hard to access when using a keyboard and mouse, and it's clear that Microsoft have worked hard to ensure this is the case.

That is my experience with it.

You say you tried Windows 8 out, but then you erroneously claimed that one has to swipe up in order to access the login screen :/ That is not true at all; as I have pointed out, one just needs to press Enter on the keyboard. Are you sure you gave Windows 8 a fair chance, used it with an open mind, and tried it out thoroughly? You not knowing the best way to access the login screen using a mouse indicates to me that you didn't try it out thoroughly.

[Vice]

Actually, the lockscreen serves a wonderful purpose. I actually like the lockscreen with the giant clock and notifications. The first I know after booting up is any new messages, new mail, new calendar events, etc.. all without logging in. Windows 8 connect to the network very quickly, so it's able to deliver all these notifications pretty much immediately.

Yeah you already said that to another poster. When I boot my computer I want to login and start using it. I don't need to see that information at a glance because if I'm turning my computer on the first thing I'm going to do is check my email and I'd rather do that than see a summary of how many I received. That kind of screen is only useful on a tablet where you would press the sleep/wake button to see at a glance if you had received any new messages. Pointless on a desktop/notebook.

[Woelfel]

Tablets are great for many applications, but ultimately, much of the heavy lifting is done on a desktop.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Heavy lifting will be done on the desktop. The desktop is slowly becoming a niche market. Laptops are the mainstream right now and soon, so will tablets. Microsoft is aiming for the future while still keeping compatibility to the past. Just like how there are things you can do easier on a command line compared to a GUI application (and "faster" mind you), there is going to be a time where touching something is easier than interacting with a mouse. It's just natural evolution of mainstream activities.

The easiest way to figure this out is an analogy on why Microsoft is making this move (and why Apple as well made this move).

You can buy a car and use it because it's simple enough to be taught (please do not rebuttle with the word "intuitive"...I despise it right now, everything is taught/learned) and you can do the basics to drive. - Average User

You can drive that car and get better at it and learn a couple of things, you find out how some things work but not almost everything, just enough (ex: change tires, know that your car needs oil without the sticker telling you, etc...) - Above Average User

You can be a mechanic and if you don't know how to fix something you can figure it out or ask other mechanics to help you. - Techie/Engineer/Enthusiast

Early on in car history, if you were not a mechanic, you were not driving a car. You needed to know everything. - Techie

Later on, cars got simpler for some people but not everyone could do it. - Above Average User

Now, you learn the basics, get a license and you're off. - Average User

Right now, desktop UIs of computers are for the Above Average User and the Techie. The reason I say that is because when a person buys a BRAND NEW car, friends of the person (techie, above average user) don't expect to have to do anything to that car in order for the person to drive safely. Right now, if one of our family members were going to buy a new windows laptop, we all know we would like to take things off, put certain things on so we know we won't have to deal with any unreasonable issues later on. We all know that there will be issues at some point (just as with cars) but we don't want to have to teach them that.

Just like a car, a mechanic can do anything they wanted to with the car, yes they will have to go through layers of "simpler" things but it will always be there because cars still need to be made and fixed. This is exactly what Microsoft is doing for the desktop PC. It's an app because there will always be a need for heavy, complicated things to do with computers and Average Users can go there if they want, to try to learn and become an Above Average User or even a Techie one day, but for the most part, people just want to drive. Most people want to run applications and most people just want to get on the internet. Where do they get that? The store. Where will it be after they buy it, on the screen with the rest of their stuff.

Yes, it is simplifying computing but keeping what we techies are used to, we just have to go through some layers aka pop the hood.

[Vice]

I appreciate you expanding and posting your reasoning for the previous post. But this last comment suggests to me that you don't understand what me or Microsoft are saying. The large tiles and option to swipe in order to access some features are elements of an interface that has been optimised for touch input; however, Microsoft have ensured the interface works just as well with a keyboard and mouse, by including mouse hotspots and keyboard shortcuts. Wherever an element works well with touch, it works just as well with a keyboard and mouse. For example, one is able to swipe up to access the login screen, but they are also able to just press Enter on the keyboard (they have both options, in case they are not using touch input); likewise, the user has the option to swipe from the bottom to access the application bar, but they also have the option of pressing a keyboard shortcut. I have come across no element in Windows 8 that is hard to access when using a keyboard and mouse, and it's clear that Microsoft have worked hard to ensure this is the case.

That is my experience with it.

You say you tried Windows 8 out, but then you erroneously claimed that one has to swipe up in order to access the login screen :/ That is not true at all; as I have pointed out, one just needs to press Enter on the keyboard. Are you sure you gave Windows 8 a fair chance, used it with an open mind, and tried it out thoroughly? You not knowing the best way to access the login screen using a mouse indicates to me that you didn't try it out thoroughly.

No where on the lock screen does it say you can press a keyboard button to get passed that screen. NO WHERE. I used the OS for a whole week. And this is just the problem with the OS. It is not intuitive - at all - just trying to find a shutdown switch in the OS is like going on a cross-country journey. It took me over 5 minutes to find something so simple in Metro.

[MorganX]

Yes, Windows 8 is segregated, and it is called WOA (Windows On ARM), where your current x86 applications has no backward compatibilities.

Just out of curiosity, could you explain how WOA segregates Metro and the Explorer UIs?

[RommelS]

Even though you can press a keyboard button to get passed the swipe screen, the mere fact the swipe screen is there in the first place shows it is designed for tablets. What need is that intermediary screen other than to add a home screen for tablets? The whole point of that screen is to provide a "slide to unlock" function that is present on iOS. That is plain as day. A tablet doesn't have a physical keyboard which is why that screen goes away when you press a key but that isn't intuitive and the screen shouldn't even be there in the first place on a desktop/notebook.

And if you say the Start Menu is not required then surely Metro which is merely a Start Menu replacement isn't needed either.

So CTRL-ALT-DELETE is any better?

Let's see = CTRL-ALT-DELETE = Swipe Screen (or any key on the keyboard)

After CTRL-ALT-DELETE or Swipe Screen, login screen shows up on all Windows version

So what is the difference? In addition, the Swipe Screen, as you call it, is also a notification area.

Start Screen = Contains Applications Links, Internet Shortcuts, Dynamic Tiles

Current Desktop of regular users = Links to Applications, Shortcuts, and physical documents.

Really, Microsoft is only giving everyone what they are already doing with the Start Screen, and if you are a Windows Power Users, and you shouldn't have any issue using the keyboard to navigate with any version of Windows.

[Calum Veteran]

Even though you can press a keyboard button to get passed the swipe screen, the mere fact the swipe screen is there in the first place shows it is designed for tablets. What need is that intermediary screen other than to add a home screen for tablets? The whole point of that screen is to provide a "slide to unlock" function that is present on iOS. That is plain as day. A tablet doesn't have a physical keyboard which is why that screen goes away when you press a key but that isn't intuitive and the screen shouldn't even be there in the first place on a desktop/notebook.

Of course it was designed for touch input. However, it was also designed to work well with a mouse and keyboard. That is why both options are there. I am astounded that so many of you appear to not see this. You state, "the mere fact the swipe screen is there in the first place shows it is designed for tablets," but I see no one disputing that. What we are pointing out is that Microsoft have also made it accessible when using a mouse and keyboard. The option is there: One can either swipe or press a button, depending on what works best with their input device or what they prefer.

And if you say the Start Menu is not required then surely Metro which is merely a Start Menu replacement isn't needed either.

This is again an astounding-to-witness oversight by many of you. The Metro experience is not just a Start Menu replacement. The Start Screen is just one part of the Metro experience. The Metro experience caters for the running of WinRT apps (WinRT is a powerful platform that provides many benefits to both developers and users, yet your post completely dismisses that). The Start Screen for the Metro experience is similar to what the Start Menu has always previously been for the Desktop; a place to launch apps. The reason the Start Menu was removed is because the Start Screen can launch both Desktop and Metro apps, which makes sense, and the Desktop is now actually seen as another app which is accessed from the Start Screen.

[MorganX]

So CTRL-ALT-DELETE is any better?

Let's see = CTRL-ALT-DELETE = Swipe Screen (or any key on the keyboard)

After CTRL-ALT-DELETE or Swipe Screen, login screen shows up on all Windows version

So what is the difference? In addition, the Swipe Screen, as you call it, is also a notification area.

Start Screen = Contains Applications Links, Internet Shortcuts, Dynamic Tiles

Current Desktop of regular users = Links to Applications, Shortcuts, and physical documents.

Really, Microsoft is only giving everyone what they are already doing with the Start Screen, and if you are a Windows Power Users, and you shouldn't have any issue using the keyboard to navigate with any version of Windows.

Actually I thought this was terrible till I realized you only had to hit Ctrl. One key better than 3 :) I also like having custom lock screen, though desktop wallpaper is buried beneath Start Page :/ Win some lose some. I'll get a Win 7 Logon screen changer, ha.

[Calum Veteran]

A simple fix would be to... Make start orb reappear, click for start menu, long click for start screen.

That wouldn't be a fix; it would be a step backward. No other app has an extra Start Screen-type element in it, so why should the Desktop app have one (the Start Menu)? So many people are forgetting that the Desktop experience is no longer the main part of Windows 8. The Metro experience is the main part, and the Desktop is accessed from that experience, just like any Metro app is.

[Vice]

So CTRL-ALT-DELETE is any better?

Let's see = CTRL-ALT-DELETE = Swipe Screen (or any key on the keyboard)

After CTRL-ALT-DELETE or Swipe Screen, login screen shows up on all Windows version

So what is the difference? In addition, the Swipe Screen, as you call it, is also a notification area.

Start Screen = Contains Applications Links, Internet Shortcuts, Dynamic Tiles

Current Desktop of regular users = Links to Applications, Shortcuts, and physical documents.

Really, Microsoft is only giving everyone what they are already doing with the Start Screen, and if you are a Windows Power Users, and you shouldn't have any issue using the keyboard to navigate with any version of Windows.

Don't worry about us power users. We won't be upgrading to it anyway. I think it is pretty clear from Neowins recent front page poll where almost 60% of respondents said they would not use Windows 8 speaks for itself when it comes to power users. And I think it would be fair to say Neowin is made up of a majority of "power users". In-fact I think the term power users is a bit silly. What we are is geeks. We are people that care so much about our computers that we signed up to a forum dedicated to computers and we discuss at length computers. We are computer geeks and the majority of the computer geeks on this forum have said nay to this operating system, I'm not talking for everyone I'm letting the poll from the front page do that.

This is again an astounding-to-witness oversight by many of you. The Metro experience is not just a Start Menu replacement. The Start Screen is just one part of the Metro experience. The Metro experience caters for the running of WinRT apps (WinRT is a powerful platform that provides many benefits to both developers and users, yet your post completely dismisses that). The Start Screen for the Metro experience is similar to what the Start Menu has always previously been for the Desktop; a place to launch apps. The reason the Start Menu was removed is because the Start Screen can launch both Desktop and Metro apps, which makes sense, and the Desktop is now actually seen as another app which is accessed from the Start Screen.

You know what WinRT apps are? Dumbed down tablet applications that lack the complexity and granular controls of full desktop software. That is what WinRT apps are. ****ty apps.

[MorganX]

Of course it was designed for touch input.

Thanks for acknowledging that, makes it much easier to listen to you even though we may disagree.

>>However, it was also designed to work well with a mouse and keyboard.<<

They still have a loooooooong way to go here IMO.

[Dot Matrix]

Don't worry about us power users. We won't be upgrading to it anyway. I think it is pretty clear from Neowins recent front page poll where almost 60% of respondents said they would not use Windows 8 speaks for itself when it comes to power users. And I think it would be fair to say Neowin is made up of a majority of "power users". In-fact I think the term power users is a bit silly. What we are is geeks. We are people that care so much about our computers that we signed up to a forum dedicated to computers and we discuss at length computers. We are computer geeks and the majority of the computer geeks on this forum have said nay to this operating system, I'm not talking for everyone I'm letting the poll from the front page do that.

Congrats. You are the 1%. Think Microsoft cares? No, they're catering to the masses of average users out there who want simplicity. Windows 8 is far from complete. I'd expect even more drastic changes at the RC.

[MorganX]

That wouldn't be a fix; it would be a step backward. No other app has an extra Start Screen-type element in it, so why should the Desktop app have one (the Start Menu)? So many people are forgetting that the Desktop experience is no longer the main part of Windows 8. The Metro experience is the main part, and the Desktop is accessed from that experience, just like any Metro app is.

Actually, if the start screen was superimposed over the desktop with transparency, that I think I could live with. More of a HUD type environment. Then switching out wouldn't be so black and white and disruptive. Would actually be rather cool.

[Calum Veteran]

No where on the lock screen does it say you can press a keyboard button to get passed that screen. NO WHERE. I used the OS for a whole week. And this is just the problem with the OS. It is not intuitive - at all - just trying to find a shutdown switch in the OS is like going on a cross-country journey. It took me over 5 minutes to find something so simple in Metro.

Nowhere on the lock screen does it say you can swipe up to access the login screen, yet that is the only thing you tried. Why? You suggest it isn't intuitive, but why would you try to swipe the screen up, when that has never previously been the way to access the login screen?

[Woelfel]

Yeah you already said that to another poster. When I boot my computer I want to login and start using it. I don't need to see that information at a glance because if I'm turning my computer on the first thing I'm going to do is check my email and I'd rather do that than see a summary of how many I received. That kind of screen is only useful on a tablet where you would press the sleep/wake button to see at a glance if you had received any new messages. Pointless on a desktop/notebook.

If there is not any notification, that would eliminate the need to go check your email. Or are you going to check your email just to look at it even though you know you don't have any new emails (unless you're looking for an old one, which would not be the purpose of you checking your email as you had a different objective in mind). That information saves you time. I use Windows 8 on my desktop and that information (including messaging even though it's kinda useless for me as I get that to information sent to my Windows Phone as well...currently) helps me as I know that I don't need to check my mail and I just open up whatever other thing I want.

[MorganX]

Congrats. You are the 1%. Think Microsoft cares? No, they're catering to the masses of average users out there who barely know their way around a computer.

They're catering to tablet users who actually don't need a PC. This is where iPad is cleaning house. There are many many great technological improvements for the Enterprise that are being annoyed by the huge pimple known as Metro on the Desktop. Without that, there would be parades by everyone for 8.

[KevinN206]

Actually I thought this was terrible till I realized you only had to hit Ctrl. One key better than 3 :) I also like having custom lock screen, though desktop wallpaper is buried beneath Start Page :/ Win some lose some. I'll get a Win 7 Logon screen changer, ha.

You can hit any key not just the CTRL. The space bar is the biggest target.

[Calum Veteran]

[. . .]

You know what WinRT apps are? Dumbed down tablet applications that lack the complexity and granular controls of full desktop software. That is what WinRT apps are. ****ty apps.

Then it's clear you don't understand how powerful the platform is. I suggest you read about the great APIs available and what that means regarding one's app interacting with apps it doesn't even know about, and interacting with Windows 8 features.

[Vice]

Nowhere on the lock screen does it say you can swipe up to access the login screen, yet that is the only thing you tried. Why? You suggest it isn't intuitive, but why would you try to swipe the screen up, when that has never previously been the way to access the login screen?

Because when I clicked on the boxes in the bottom left corner, the background moved. It was just dumb luck. Not intuitive. Even apple adds the text "Slide to Unlock" to their slide button on the iPad. Microsoft just doesn't get it.

Then it's clear you don't understand how powerful the platform is. I suggest you read about the great APIs available and what that means regarding one's app interacting with apps it doesn't even know about, and interacting with Windows 8 features.

This is where you're wrong. I know exactly how powerful the API's are - It is the interface that holds the software back and I made that quite clear. I think you are having trouble understanding things from my point of view. The code the frameworks the API's are all fine. It is the interface and the HIG that will hold Metro apps back.

Congrats. You are the 1%. Think Microsoft cares? No, they're catering to the masses of average users out there who want simplicity. Windows 8 is far from complete. I'd expect even more drastic changes at the RC.

Of course they don't care about the desktop users. They want to beat Apples iPad. That is pretty clear by Windows 8's Metro interface.

[MorganX]

Nowhere on the lock screen does it say you can swipe up to access the login screen, yet that is the only thing you tried. Why? You suggest it isn't intuitive, but why would you try to swipe the screen up, when that has never previously been the way to access the login screen?

When you click/drag it actually bounces and you discover the lock screen goes up. I dragged it for quite a while till I said there must be a better way and tried Ctrl-alt-del and it went up as soon as I touched ctrl.

When you implement a touch UI on the desktop, people's tendency will be to try to discover by dragging, touching, sliding. You know, like on a tablet device ;>

You can hit any key not just the CTRL. The space bar is the biggest target.

This is true. But ctrl requires less movement for me and I'm sued to it. Anywhoo, I do like the lock screen.

[Woelfel]

I dragged it for quite a while till I said there must be a better way and tried Ctrl-alt-del and it went up as soon as I touched ctrl.

Most people will probably find this out by mistake...just as you.

[Dot Matrix]

Of course they don't care about the desktop users. They want to beat Apples iPad. That is pretty clear by Windows 8's Metro interface.

[snipped] Are you honestly able to believe that they forgot about their 90% market share, 95% of which uses desktops?

Metro UI is one UI to rule them all. Desktop. Laptop. Ultrabook. Tablet. Transformer. You name it, it'll fit it. If you're bitching about fullscreen apps, if you don't want them, don't use them! There is no reason you should be bitching about the new Start Menu.... Not when all the old functionality is STILL there.