Why didn't MS segregate the tablet UI from the desktop UI?

[Calum Veteran]

Yeah you already said that to another poster. When I boot my computer I want to login and start using it. I don't need to see that information at a glance because if I'm turning my computer on the first thing I'm going to do is check my email and I'd rather do that than see a summary of how many I received. That kind of screen is only useful on a tablet where you would press the sleep/wake button to see at a glance if you had received any new messages. Pointless on a desktop/notebook.

So why would you sleep a tablet, but then shut down a notebook or desktop? There's a reason Microsoft placed the Shut Down option in the place they did in Windows 8. Again, it's all about people having to adapt and change the way they use their computer. Microsoft are subtly explaining that there is no longer a need for you to shut down.

[Vice]

So why would you sleep a tablet, but then shut down a notebook or desktop? There's a reason Microsoft placed the Shut Down option in the place they did in Windows 8. Again, it's all about people having to adapt and change the way they use their computer. Microsoft are subtly explaining that there is no longer a need for you to shut down.

Because my Desktop is a monster that consumes hundreds of watts while idle and I want to shut it down when I'm not using it?

I love your answer to this. It is just like Steve Jobs "You're holding it wrong" Instead of the problem being a lack of easy to find shutdown the problem is with me the user wanting to shut down my own computer. Hilarious.

[Calum Veteran]

Please, please - stop doing such a thing and telling us that we don't understand just because we believe that pushing tablet/touch ui into classic desktop is plainly wrong idea; i prefectly understand why Microsoft pushes Metro into desktop - just because they don't have any better idea for their next operating system and they switched to the faster release cycle after delay between XP and Vista, which pushes them to sell their top product in 2-3 year cycle. Stop doing metrollvangelism.

I'm only telling the people who don't understand that they don't understand. I would think that would actually be helpful to them. I'm not telling everyone who dislikes the Metro experience that they don't understand Windows 8. The author of this thread made it clear he doesn't understand it because he's erroneously referring to it as "a tablet UI" :s

[jakem1]

This wasn't the case with the Start Menu. If I wanted to launch a rarely used app I could still see my video from the corner of my eye I could still see my IRC chats moving I could still see incoming MSN messages and with these things in my peripheral vision I could quickly look at them and see what happened while still having the start menu open and then I could continue my search for the app I wanted.

I've seen this argument used numerous times over the last few months and it's absolute nonsense. Do you honestly think that an OS should be designed for the infinitessimally rare cases where someone might want to try and navigate their Start menu while looking somewhere else on the screen? Of course it shouldn't because nobody would actually do that.

At least try and come up with valid excuses for not being able to use something.

[Vice]

I'm only telling the people who don't understand that they don't understand. I would think that would actually be helpful to them. I'm not telling everyone who dislikes the Metro experience that they don't understand Windows 8. The author of this thread made it clear he doesn't understand it because he's erroneously referring to it as "a tablet UI" :s

Yeah the problem is Callum that it is a Tablet UI so you telling people they don't understand it is condescending.

[Calum Veteran]

Help me understand why users should be forced to "have an open mind" when evaluating a product that wants them to spend their money on it. I don't need to try Windows 8 with an open mind, though I feel I have, or anything else for that matter. Microsoft chose to make huge changes that I don't see as beneficial in the slightest. I have used them and I don't feel I want to learn a plathora of new stupid "gestures" and "hot spots" and whatever else they thought statistics told them I should want...

Luckily for me I have a wallet and I'll ignore the Windows 8 release on my desktop (though I am considering a tablet still) :).

I'm not going to force myself to like Windows 8. I don't force myself to like things I spend my money on. That's not how it works.

Complaining about something when you don't understand the concept of it is unreasonable, whether you're spending your money on it or not. It might be fine for you to judge it and decide it isn't for you, without opening your mind to see the benefits (although, I would deem that foolish), but to complain about it when you haven't opened your mind is unreasonable. I'm not suggesting you haven't opened your mind; I'm just answering your question.

You say you don't deem the changes beneficial, but of course someone who hasn't opened their mind to understand why the changes were made will not see them as beneficial; that is why opening your mind is important.

You're spending your money on it, yes, but you don't have to use it. Microsoft have developed the product for those who believe it will benefit them to use it. If you don't like Metro, that's fine (I personally am no longer sure whether I like the look of it as much as I did), but complaining about it without understanding it is wrong, and that was my point. That is why people should open their minds?to understand the product before complaining about it.

People should open their mind when forming an opinion on anything, whether it's a political view or a view on a product.

[Vice]

I've seen this argument used numerous times over the last few months and it's absolute nonsense. Do you honestly think that an OS should be designed for the infinitessimally rare cases where someone might want to try and navigate their Start menu while looking somewhere else on the screen? Of course it shouldn't because nobody would actually do that.

At least try and come up with valid excuses for not being able to use something.

Yeah how dare they design a UI around multitasking! Our operating systems weren't designed for that!

/sarcasm

[Calum Veteran]

Because my Desktop is a monster that consumes hundreds of watts while idle and I want to shut it down when I'm not using it?

I love your answer to this. It is just like Steve Jobs "You're holding it wrong" Instead of the problem being a lack of easy to find shutdown the problem is with me the user wanting to shut down my own computer. Hilarious.

Fair enough. You have a need to shut down your computer. Many of us don't, though, which is why Microsoft have made these changes. They haven't made it hard for you to shut down or login, though. It might be beneficial for them to provide an option to disable the login screen for you, though.

Yeah the problem is Callum that it is a Tablet UI so you telling people they don't understand it is condescending.

It isn't a tablet UI because it is used on desktops, laptops, and other formfactors; thus, I am not being condescending. Anyone who calls it "a tablet UI" is completely wrong and that is a fact.

Yeah how dare they design a UI around multitasking! Our operating systems weren't designed for that!

/sarcasm

Clearly, Windows 8's Metro experience was not designed for the kind of "multitasking" you're referring to, so why the sarcasm? The Metro experience does support some great multitasking, though; as I've mentioned, I find that better than the multitasking you're referring to.

[Vice]

Fair enough. You have a need to shut down your computer. Many of us don't, though, which is why Microsoft have made these changes. They haven't made it hard for you to shut down or login, though. It might be beneficial for them to provide an option to disable the login screen for you, though.

To be honest I could live with the login screen. If they provided a way to bring back the start menu and disable Metro I'd upgrade to it even with the lock screen.

You know what would have been awesome is if they simply kept the start button for the start menu and then if u went further in to the corner you got the metro pop up. That would have served everyone and that poll on the front page of Neowin would have had 90% of people willing to buy it. They could have catered to everyone. It really makes me think that Microsoft are not very good at business when they willingly decide to alienate some of their own market, the early adopters. Just seems so novice to be willing to lose money when there was no need.

[Calum Veteran]

I don't get why he even feels he needs to defend it. He didn't make it, he isn't working at Microsoft. His sense of protecting his baby is totally misguided and he should see it with objective eyes like the rest of us.

I defend products that are great, whether I made them or not. I certainly defend products and people when others have made incorrect judgements. It's fine to dislike Windows 8, but it is not fine to be completely wrong about it (e.g. referring to the Metro experience as "a tablet UI").

I have always looked at Windows objectively.

[Mazhar]

Yeah the problem is Callum that it is a Tablet UI so you telling people they don't understand it is condescending.

If Metro was used on Tablets and Phones first, its does not mean it cannot be used for Desktop. It can and it works.

[Vice]

I really don't know how you could not see Metro as a Tablet UI. First of all it comes from a phone that has touch as its only interface. You keep saying it isnt a Touch UI but it is! - All they've done is made a Touch UI that can be used with a Mouse and Keyboard.

Just like Windows 7 and below had a Tablet mode which made the Desktop UI usable on a touch screen device. This is just reversed with the Touch Screen as the lead device that this UI has been designed for.

It is crazy to me that you don't think this is a Touch UI you must be just such a die hard fan of Microsoft to be so blind.

Also Callum why would you switch to Mac OS X when you have a Windows 7 Phone? You would be missing out on the synergy between their products? I don't understand that.

[Calum Veteran]

[. . .]

When you constantly tell people they don't understand things? - That is belittling them. Try not to do that. Set a better example and stop telling people what they don't understand.

I don't believe it's belittling them because if someone doesn't understand something, it would surely benefit them to know, right? I personally believe it's incredibly unreasonable and wrong for someone to complain about something they don't understand?it irritates me?and so I don't believe informing people they don't understand it is setting a bad example or belittling them. It's their own fault.

I only tell people they don't understand something when they've made it clear they don't. (e.g. when people erroneously state that one has to swipe up to access the Windows 8 login screen, or when they refer to it as "a tablet UI").

[Vice]

I don't believe it's belittling them because if someone doesn't understand something, it would surely benefit them to know, right? I personally believe it's incredibly unreasonable and wrong for someone to complain about something they don't understand?it irritates me?and so I don't believe informing people they don't understand it is setting a bad example or belittling them. It's their own fault.

I only tell people they don't understand something when they've made it clear they don't. (e.g. when people erroneously state that one has to swipe up to access the Windows 8 login screen, or when they refer to it as "a tablet UI").

It is just your opinion that they are wrong. Not a fact. So when you use your opinion to tell them they are wrong that is belittling them and it is annoying.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Your post is completely wrong. I haven't ever suggested that my opinion on the Metro experience is right and others' opinions on it are wrong. Clearly, the problem with you is that you don't understand my posts. I suggest you please ensure you understand them before you incorrectly judge and lie about me. Further, I haven't talked down anyone's opinion, which is what you erroneously suggest is "all I do."

Please ensure you understand my posts in future.

Yes, yes, the same rhetoric, I'm wrong and I just don't understand, do you even read back your responses?

I don't believe it's belittling them because if someone doesn't understand something, it would surely benefit them to know, right? I personally believe it's incredibly unreasonable and wrong for someone to complain about something they don't understand?it irritates me?and so I don't believe informing people they don't understand it is setting a bad example or belittling them. It's their own fault.

I only tell people they don't understand something when they've made it clear they don't. (e.g. when people erroneously state that one has to swipe up to access the Windows 8 login screen, or when they refer to it as "a tablet UI").

Just when I thought you couldn't get any more arrogant and condescending. Who the hell do you think you are telling people that they are wrong by your own PERSONAL definitions, if it were anyone else speaking to people like you do who as a non-moderator they probably would have been reported and warned by now.

[sila]

but it is not fine to be completely wrong about it (e.g. referring to the Metro experience as "a tablet UI").

Err, you're only kind of right. Granted metro is a 'Design Language' and not a UI in and of itself, they have implemented that design language in the form of a touch-friendly (or, "tablet-UI") in windows 8 at the expense of usability on a mouse and keyboard machine.

It's all well and good saying people need to 'open their mind' and 'understand why' changes had been made. There may have been good reasons for the changes, but if it doesn't make peoples life easier and in fact makes simple tasks longer or more irritating simply in aid of some pie in the sky ideology which doesn't actually work on a PC form factor, then people will not use it. People will complain, it is the consumers who will drive what is and is not successful.

As has been previously said, there are features from a touch-based UI which could be implemented on a desktop machine, such as Apple is doing with Mountain Lion. It is naive and ill thought out to simply take what is absolutely designed as a touch UI and slap it into a PC.

Your hideous holier-than-thou "My opinion is the only right one" attitude is doing you no favours. How you ever became a mod with an attitude like that is beyond me. Seems to me like you are the one who needs to "open your mind"...

[Calum Veteran]

Err, you're only kind of right. Granted metro is a 'Design Language' and not a UI in and of itself, they have implemented that design language in the form of a touch-friendly (or, "tablet-UI") in windows 8 at the expense of usability on a mouse and keyboard machine.

It's all well and good saying people need to 'open their mind' and 'understand why' changes had been made. There may have been good reasons for the changes, but if it doesn't make peoples life easier and in fact makes simple tasks longer or more irritating simply in aid of some pie in the sky ideology which doesn't actually work on a PC form factor, then people will not use it. People will complain, it is the consumers who will drive what is and is not successful.

As has been previously said, there are features from a touch-based UI which could be implemented on a desktop machine, such as Apple is doing with Mountain Lion. It is naive and ill thought out to simply take what is absolutely designed as a touch UI and slap it into a PC.

Your hideous holier-than-thou "My opinion is the only right one" attitude is doing you no favours. How you ever became a mod with an attitude like that is beyond me. Seems to me like you are the one who needs to "open your mind"...

I haven't ever had that attitude. I have no idea why so many of you believe that I think your opinions are wrong, and I am not sure why so many people appear to think I have a "holier than thou" attitude. Why do some of you think this? I haven't said anyone's opinion is wrong. I have, however, suggested that some people may need to open their minds more. I haven't suggested everyone who hates the Metro experience should do that; only some people who have indicated that they haven't opened their minds enough to understand it. I completely understand that some people who have given it a try believe it could impact their productivity and workflow.

Please help me understand why you and others have judged my posts in that way.

I was asked to be a moderator partly due to my posting style and behaviour?I am always courteous, polite, and I post within the rules.

[JaredFrost]

That wouldn't be a fix; it would be a step backward. No other app has an extra Start Screen-type element in it, so why should the Desktop app have one (the Start Menu)? So many people are forgetting that the Desktop experience is no longer the main part of Windows 8. The Metro experience is the main part, and the Desktop is accessed from that experience, just like any Metro app is.

You need to stop calling it the "desktop app", if you were to stop the "desktop" from loading, Metro wouldn't be there, if you close the "desktop app" Metro isn't there anymore

Like it or not, all Metro does is start up full screen over the Desktop, Was the desktop an app to the taskbar before Metro?

[Salgoth]

Clearly, the problem with you is that you don't understand my posts. I suggest you please ensure you understand them before you incorrectly judge and lie about me. Further, I haven't talked down anyone's opinion, which is what you erroneously suggest is "all I do."

Please ensure you understand my posts in future.

Sorry to say I'm just looking through posts and I think you come off as extremely sactimonious. Your support for MS and the Metro UI is so vociferous you should get a paycheck from them. Based on all the posts from you the UI is great and anyone who doesn't agree either "doesn't understand it" or "isn't using it correctly". You leave no room for other opinion - just yours.

I haven't even used the W8 CP and read threads like this for information and to gauge opinions - yours seem to strike me as so curiously one-sided I felt the need to post about it - I don't post much although I check the site about a dozen times a day.

I honestly would have expected a Global Mod to be a little more open minded. Just because you love it doesn't mean others can't have difficulty or find the W7 interface better. How about you try this? Aknowledge the opinions of others and maybe suggest things they could do instead of browbeating them?

Please ensure you understand my post before you reply.

(Yeah, that doesn't sound sactimonious at all does it?)

[HawkMan]

Because my Desktop is a monster that consumes hundreds of watts while idle and I want to shut it down when I'm not using it?

I love your answer to this. It is just like Steve Jobs "You're holding it wrong" Instead of the problem being a lack of easy to find shutdown the problem is with me the user wanting to shut down my own computer. Hilarious.

No, your computer is not consuming hundreds of watts when idle. Modern hardware is something called scalabled, scalable means that when not in use, the dot consume more power than they need to stay alert. Meaning a monster computer when idle won't use more power than needed to maintain your desktop, or even that, if you have it setto shut of and sleep the monitor' or even Bette to go to sleep entirely, setting it to go to sleep would probably save you power over turning it off in fact.

Either way it's not consuming hundreds of watts when idle.

As for your earlier comment on why we feel the need to defend it despite not making it. For the same reason you feel the need to attack it. We see that the new star menu is in fact better, faster and easier to use. And we want it stay around. And MS isn't going jot waste resources to develop two parallel and confusing user paradigms. It's better for the end users if they ony have one usage paradigm to work with. It also makes windows faster to strip out old bloat like the start menu.

And oh no you missed half a second of your irc chat log to start an app or half a second of a movie... Seriously, that's the best gripe you can come up with. Btw the way the human brain and eye works, even if you can sort of see the movie in the corner of your eye when using the star menu, you're not actually. S it's an invalid argument anyway. The only thing your brain is catching from the movie when doing that is the audio which is making up for it anyway and which you still get Witt he start screen.

And on top of that, since the start screen an show you 46 organized pinned apps at once, instead of 6-8, meaning may apps you would ha to root into sub folders for, the start screen keeps your attention away for half to one second. The start menu will distract you far longer.

You need to stop calling it the "desktop app", if you were to stop the "desktop" from loading, Metro wouldn't be there, if you close the "desktop app" Metro isn't there anymore

Like it or not, all Metro does is start up full screen over the Desktop, Was the desktop an app to the taskbar before Metro?

Wrong the desktop runs on top of metro, you're confusing the desktop with explorer shell.

Metro now runs in explorer shell, in fact explorer shell IS metro or vica versa, the desktop however runs as an app inside this again. Though it's sort of both parallel as well as Nader metro. Bt metro is the "master" tha runs on top.

I honestly would have expected a Global Mod to be a little more open minded.

Not sure you understand what open minded is. Unlike theaters who have barely given metro a chance, and haven't been willing to even tr changing their usage behaviors to see if they can be better with metro if they throw their old ways overboard. He has been open minded and given it a chance.

[sila]

I have no idea why so many of you believe that I think your opinions are wrong, and I am not sure why so many people appear to think I have a "holier than thou" attitude.

So what you're saying is that almost every post of yours in this thread hasn't been "You're wrong." "You're wrong", and "You're wrong".?

Trying to tell people they're wrong for calling Metro a "tablet-UI" is ridiculous. To expand on that, as I explained before, Metro is a "Design Language" which is designed from the ground up to make things touch-friendly. It was designed originally to be implemented as a new way of experiencing touch devices, windows phone , upcoming tablets and the like. Telling people they're wrong for succinctly saying it is a "tablet-UI" is splitting hairs when they are in fact right in the spirit of what's being said, and you're simply trying to laud it over other people with some sanctimonious holier-than-thou attitude because you don't have much to say of any substance to peoples reasonable criticisms of the product.

It would be more beneficial to the discussion to come up with some objective reasoning to counter peoples objections rather than trying to split hairs over terminology for which your argument is weak at best.

I'd honestly expect more from staff of this site than what is clearly nothing more than flamebait and argumentative drivel for the most part.

[Vice]

No, your computer is not consuming hundreds of watts when idle. Modern hardware is something called scalabled, scalable means that when not in use, the dot consume more power than they need to stay alert. Meaning a monster computer when idle won't use more power than needed to maintain your desktop, or even that, if you have it setto shut of and sleep the monitor' or even Bette to go to sleep entirely, setting it to go to sleep would probably save you power over turning it off in fact.

Actually I have a wattage meter on my computer and it is. But it is nice to know other Neowin members know what hardware I'm running.

FYI, It's Tri-SLI GTX 480's in my system that cause such high power consumption at idle :)

[123456789A]

Here we go again.

[jakem1]

Yeah how dare they design a UI around multitasking! Our operating systems weren't designed for that!

/sarcasm

What does multitasking have to do with anything? You're limited by the fact that you aren't capable of focussing on two things at the same time. Can you read a book on your lap while you drive? Can you read a newspaper and watch TV at the same time? Can you type an essay while chopping onions? Of course not so why would you assume that you can navigate through the Start menu at the same time you are watching a video or replying to a messenger conversation?

As I said before, your example is a fringe concern at best but is really just a nonsense example. It's certainly not the sort of thing that a UI should be based around and I'll take the benefits of the new Start screen over the unnecessary ability to find application icons while watching movies.

[Vice]

...Can you read a book on your lap while you drive?...

Of course I'm just posting this because it is funny. I wouldn't actually read a book while driving. However I think your argument is flawed because I'm watching a tv show right now while replying to you. I can do two things at once, one is a passive activity where I'm receiving information and hearing whats happening and seeing it out the corner of my eye while the other is replying to you.