Why didn't MS segregate the tablet UI from the desktop UI?

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

There is no "desktop UI" in Windows 8, therefore nothing is "segregated". Windows 8 IS Metro. The "desktop UI" as you call it is merely an application compatibility environment to allow you to run non-metro apps on your Metro OS. The desktop/taskbar/startmenu paradigm ended with Windows 7, get used to it. Metro isn't going anywhere.

And to echo what some of the others here have said, being much improved for touch doesn't make it any less interact-able with a keyboard and mouse. Sure some thinks like the hot corners need to be exposed a little more, and storing the power options inside of a settings menu is a bit odd, but these are things that will get ironed out during the beta and when the OS is released in the form of tutorials, education-adverts, etc.

Also for the record, you don't have to swipe up to get to the logon screen. Just press Ctrl, you know the first key in the historical Ctrl+Alt+Del sequence.

[Dot Matrix]

There is no "desktop UI" in Windows 8, therefore nothing is "segregated". Windows 8 IS Metro. The "desktop UI" as you call it is merely an application compatibility environment to allow you to run non-metro apps on your Metro OS. The desktop/taskbar/startmenu paradigm ended with Windows 7, get used to it. Metro isn't going anywhere.

And to echo what some of the others here have said, being much improved for touch doesn't make it any less interact-able with a keyboard and mouse. Sure some thinks like the hot corners need to be exposed a little more, and storing the power options inside of a settings menu is a bit odd, but these are things that will get ironed out during the beta and when the OS is released in the form of tutorials, education-adverts, etc.

Also for the record, you don't have to swipe up to get to the logon screen. Just press Ctrl, you know the first key in the historical Ctrl+Alt+Del sequence.

This.

This is Windows.next. Even if Windows 8 "fails", the desktop/taskbar/start menu paradigm is still history. Metro apps are the future. Welcome to computing 2.0. This isn't the 90's anymore folks.

[Davo]

I rarely use the Start Menu as it is, but would probably start burning houses down if they got rid of the taskbar.

[RommelS]

Don't worry about us power users. We won't be upgrading to it anyway. I think it is pretty clear from Neowins recent front page poll where almost 60% of respondents said they would not use Windows 8 speaks for itself when it comes to power users. And I think it would be fair to say Neowin is made up of a majority of "power users". In-fact I think the term power users is a bit silly. What we are is geeks. We are people that care so much about our computers that we signed up to a forum dedicated to computers and we discuss at length computers. We are computer geeks and the majority of the computer geeks on this forum have said nay to this operating system, I'm not talking for everyone I'm letting the poll from the front page do that.

You know what WinRT apps are? Dumbed down tablet applications that lack the complexity and granular controls of full desktop software. That is what WinRT apps are. ****ty apps.

I don't doubt that you are NOT a geek, but for a geek, you are so close minded about change. If you are really a power user, then you should know by now that every tools that you use to configure/reconfigure Windows is still in Windows 8.

Yeah, that WinRT, the new programming model for Metro style applications, yeah that one. Yeah, it also show your lack of knowledge since WinRT is not just for programming application running with touch interface.

[blade1269]

Hey

They should give us a switch to turn it off, or a choice to disable it without messing with task manger... I could live metro if the give me back the stat menu...

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

Don't worry about us power users. We won't be upgrading to it anyway. I think it is pretty clear from Neowins recent front page poll where almost 60% of respondents said they would not use Windows 8 speaks for itself when it comes to power users. And I think it would be fair to say Neowin is made up of a majority of "power users". In-fact I think the term power users is a bit silly. What we are is geeks. We are people that care so much about our computers that we signed up to a forum dedicated to computers and we discuss at length computers. We are computer geeks and the majority of the computer geeks on this forum have said nay to this operating system, I'm not talking for everyone I'm letting the poll from the front page do that.

You know what WinRT apps are? Dumbed down tablet applications that lack the complexity and granular controls of full desktop software. That is what WinRT apps are. ****ty apps.

Well by that logic, 40% of "Power Users" may or definitely will use Windows 8. But you can bet your bottom dollar that the percentage of "regular" or "average" users who will use Windows 8 will be much much higher, at least 60% I'd say if not higher. And much as you'd like to dwell in your own self-importance, "Power Users" make up a relatively small percentage of overall computer users.

And for the record, you have absolutely NO idea what the WinRT platform offers or is capable of, or what level of apps will be available in the future. You're basing you narrow minded trolling on a handful of simple beta apps rushed out in time for the beta so the store had some stuff for people to play with. The level of ignorance you demonstrate is frankly astounding.

Hey

They should give us a switch to turn it off, or a choice to disable it without messing with task manger... I could live metro if the give me back the stat menu...

That doesn't even make sense. Windows 8 IS Metro. Metro IS Windows 8. They are not going to give you an option to turn off Windows 8 in Windows 8. Don't like the new platform? Don't buy it.

[XX55XX]

Wait, I'm not hating on Windows 8 at all. Given a vast overhaul, it could become very useful and potentially even more powerful than the start menu. Again, I realize that this is a beta and things are subject to change.

But, can you see yourselves not being able to use the Explorer? Can you see yourselves using Metro as the only interface on your computer? It's usable, sure... but there's a reason why the start menu and taskbar have been with us this long. They just work.

If Metro is the future, then it requires a radical overhaul on the desktop. I understand that Microsoft wants to integrate smartphone, tablet, and desktop into one, but this is too dramatic a step.

And nowhere on the lock screen did it tell me that I could press any key to login. At least in Windows NT 4, it told me to press CTRL+ALT+DEL to login from the getgo.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

just because it works with tablets, does not mean it's at tablet UI and not a desktop UI. They didn't decided to make it touch first[...]

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/br211386.aspx

Metro style apps are designed to be [...] touch-first

[Nashy]

Have you used it? The Metro experience works great with my notebook's keyboard and trackpad. It is not "a touch interface." It is an interface that is optimised for touch but that also works great with nontouch input devices.

How's about you don't speak for anyone apart from yourself, Callum.

IMO. And how I use my computer, I assure you, Metro does not work. I don't like it, I don't find it easy to use, I don't find it helpful for my productivity. Personally, I think MS has completely dropped the ball. They are being arrogant, they are forcing this major change on their users without actually seeing what their users think.

From what I've seen online, nothing official, the majority of computer users do not like Windows 8. And I know why.

So if it works for you, then great, but don't come into these threads saying how good it is, while talking down other user's opinions, just because you think they're wrong. Because when it comes down to it, you don't know how I use my computer, what I like about how easy Win 7 is to use, and just how much better Win 7, Win Vista, Win 2000, Win XP, Win ME, Win 98, Win 95 all are.

Yes I have used it. Yes I have used it for more than 10 minutes. Yes I gave it a decent chance. No, I still think it's going to be a flop that computer users will not enjoy adapting to, and I think we will see future segregation of the two OS'.

Telling people they don't understand is dumb. Of course I don't understand what MS is trying to do. Why? Because I couldn't give two ****s what they want to do. What I care about, as a consumer, is that I can easily, and happily use their software. With Windows 8, they can go to hell.

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

And nowhere on the lock screen did it tell me that I could press any key to login. At least in Windows NT 4, it told me to press CTRL+ALT+DEL to login from the getgo.

Why do you need to be told how to do something you already know how to do? Just pressing the CTRL+ALT+DEL as you did before would allow you to log in.

Besides, as has been mentioned over and over and over... this is beta. Beta is generally used by "Power Users", those who already know how to do these things, or would find it easy to learn. Basic functions such as this, or accessing the charms bar, or settings, etc, will have full tutorial, quick start, and edu-advert support when the OS actually launches. People didn't instantly know how to use all the features of Windows 95 or the original iPhone when they first launched, they had to learn. But now those interfaces are widely accepted and used by users of all kinds. It will be no different with what Windows 8 is starting with Metro.

...snip...

They are being arrogant, they are forcing this major change on their users without actually seeing what their users think.

From what I've seen online, nothing official, the majority of computer users do not like Windows 8.

They are not forcing anything onto anybody. Nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to upgrade to Windows 8.

I have seen something entirely different. The majority of average users (those who don't know that much about computers, ie. those who rarely if ever tinker with settings and get a knowledgeable friend to do it instead) actually like what they see. You only have to look at the consumer shows where MS was demonstrating the new OS. The Windows 8 booths had crowds of people around them watching the demos, and the vast majority of those people were genuinely impressed at what they saw. The "power user" group is a little different though, that is split right down the middle on their opinion of Windows 8, or at worst 60/40 (as Neowin's own poll showed).

Also as I've mentioned in another thread... Microsoft are not stupid. they collect multi-terabytes of usage data from all the computers around the world opted into their various "anonymous usage stats" programs. They have a much much better understanding of what parts of the UI are accessed most by the majority of people (ie. are most important to them) than you or I do.

[SierraSonic]

Is it is meant to be separate, why does the smart screen show desktop apps?

The ss should only show metro apps that don't kick you out of metro.

While the desktop shouldnt sure any metro apps, which kick you into the ss.

The problem is microsoft is trying to kill two birds with one stone, it cannot be done this way, as it drags both interfaces down.

Also, certain tasks now need both the mouse and kb to be faster than before when most actions could be done mouse only or kb only.

[Emon]

No one is talking about running Windows 8 in a virtual environment. Did you guys not try that??

I have no big complains with Windows 8 running on my laptop .. I actually like it. However, I just installed it in VMWare at work and the hot corners are soo hard to use! Every time when I want to activate the Start Screen my pointer goes out side the VM and I end up clicking something on my desktop. :angry:

[Calum Veteran]

How's about you don't speak for anyone apart from yourself, Callum.

[. . .]

So if it works for you, then great, but don't come into these threads saying how good it is, while talking down other user's opinions, just because you think they're wrong. Because when it comes down to it, you don't know how I use my computer, what I like about how easy Win 7 is to use, and just how much better Win 7, Win Vista, Win 2000, Win XP, Win ME, Win 98, Win 95 all are.

[. . .]

So, are you suggesting that you should be able to criticise Windows 8, but I shouldn't defend it when people criticise it? That's all I've been doing, and I haven't "talked down" others' opinions.

I'm well aware that people use computers differently, different people will adapt to user interface changes more easily than others, and different people will find a certain user interface easier to use than others; however, when people broadly state, "the Metro interface does not work," or anything of the sort, I take issue with it because that statement suggests it does not work for anyone, yet I find it works well. If people suggest it does not work for them, that might be a different matter; I will still question them to find out why they believe it doesn't work for them, but I won't outright say "you're wrong; it does work," like I do when people outright state it doesn't work at all. I have informed some people that they probably haven't given Windows 8 a fair chance quite a few times, but I've only done that when they've made it clear that they don't understand it (for example, when they've erroneously claimed that mouse and keyboard users have to swipe up the lock screen to access the login screen).

Your post is rude. Of course I'm aware I can only speak for myself because others' views and opinions are not mine. I do not need to be told something so obvious, so please do not speak to me like that again.

[trek]

Because no one would develop for a MS tablet. They had to force devs to write programs for it by belching it onto the desktop PC.

[XX55XX]

They are not forcing anything onto anybody. Nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to upgrade to Windows 8.

I have seen something entirely different. The majority of average users (those who don't know that much about computers, ie. those who rarely if ever tinker with settings and get a knowledgeable friend to do it instead) actually like what they see. You only have to look at the consumer shows where MS was demonstrating the new OS. The Windows 8 booths had crowds of people around them watching the demos, and the vast majority of those people were genuinely impressed at what they saw. The "power user" group is a little different though, that is split right down the middle on their opinion of Windows 8, or at worst 60/40 (as Neowin's own poll showed).

They were probably demoing them on tablets, not traditional laptops or desktops. Windows 8 is fantastic on a tablet, and the UI makes complete sense. I will most definitely buy a Windows 8 tablet when those come out.

Right now, it's just a mess. It's usable, sure, but I don't like the direction Metro is taking the desktop. What's the point?

[Rudie32]

People bitch everytime microsoft gets ready to release an operating system. Happened with xp, happened with windows vista, happened with windows 7 so i don't expect this round to be any different.

[devHead]

You don't have to swipe up to access the login screen :blink: As I mentioned in my previous post, you do not understand Windows 8, unfortunately, and your claim of having to swipe up to access the login screen further proves that.

To access the login screen, all you have to do is press a keyboard button (I usually press Enter).

The Start Menu has been removed because it is not required (due to the more superior Start Screen). The Start Screen is a great way to launch programs and it's easy to find programs there, especially due to the search feature (if you haven't pinned your most used apps and websites).

What you're missing Callum, is that while you don't have to swipe up to unlock the screen, there's no way of knowing how else to do it. To me the two biggest errors with the UI in Windows 8 is

1) It's not intuitive. There are too many new features of the UI that are simply not easily discoverable in a Desktop environment. Ok, you don't have to swipe up, but how on earth can you figure out what to do? There are no visual cues on the lock screen that gives some clue as to how to get rid of it. Now, for tablet users, they know better, but not a PC user. How did you learn that you could just press a keyboard key to move it up? How would a person know how to get out of the Desktop environment back to the Start screen? They removed the stinking 'Start' button! How is anyone supposed to know to click down there now? At first glance, it appears like the Start button is gone, so don't even bother moving your cursor down there. The Charms bar, also, undiscoverable in a Desktop environment. The App switcher is also undiscoverable, since we've never had to move our mouse cursor to edges and corners of the Desktop in order to 'reveal' navigational features of the OS. So please do not say it's not for touch or a tablet. It seems like it's almost exclusively for such.

2) The Start screen is not superior at all! Even after over a week of working with it, it is jarring being sent to a giant screen filled with apps. It's not a great way. The great way? With Jumplists and flyout menus. I love how I can get to a specific Control Panel item or Administrative tool item or a specific Word document from the Start menu because I have it configured that way. There is no configuring such things on the Start screen. Anywhere. Jumplists for Word and Excel and other Office apps are gone. Why do I have to pin them all to my Taskbar now? That is just retarded. No more Control Panel flyout menu or Admin tools. Now, just a bunch of ugly icons on a Start screen that was only designed for 'live' tablet Apps. Not required? Have you lost it, bro?

[PGHammer]

[snipped] Are you honestly able to believe that they forgot about their 90% market share, 95% of which uses desktops?

Metro UI is one UI to rule them all. Desktop. Laptop. Ultrabook. Tablet. Transformer. You name it, it'll fit it. If you're bitching about fullscreen apps, if you don't want them, don't use them! There is no reason you should be bitching about the new Start Menu.... Not when all the old functionality is STILL there.

Precisely.

I run the Consumer Preview as my day-to-day OS on (surprise) a traditional desktop, with a traditional (though USB and wireless) keyboard and mouse. No touch anywhere.

I run mostly traditional (not Metro/WinRT) applications - in fact, I run *all* of the same applications, games, etc. I did on Windows 7. Could I have run all the same Windows XP applications on XP Tablet PC Edition? No; because XP TPE was a subset - not superset - of XP Professional. XP Media Center Edition on the other hand - especially MCE 2005 - was actually a proper superset of XP Professional - one that included most of the functionality of XP TPE *in addition* to that of XP Professional. However, one had to jump through quite a few hoops to get MCE 2005, as it was never sold retail.

Windows 8 (in the Consumer Preview form) is actually closer to Media Center Edition than Tablet PC Edition in that it is quite usable on any form of x86 hardware that can run Windows 7 today. Slates. Tablets. Ultrabooks. Higher-end netbooks and midrange portables (which Ultrabooks are targeting - notice that most Ultrabooks are using quad-core - specifically i5 - processors). Even desktops suitable for gaming from low-end to extreme-end.

And despite that Windows 8 is as backward-compatible a version of Windows as has been publicly released (even compared to Windows 7 + SP1 of today, no less), the detractors are screaming about a single missing feature from Windows 7 - the fracking Start menu.

Not application compatibility. Not even hardware compatibility.

The issue with the Consumer Preview is the users.

[XX55XX]

People bitch everytime microsoft gets ready to release an operating system. Happened with xp, happened with windows vista, happened with windows 7 so i don't expect this round to be any different.

I didn't bitch once about Vista. I loved it. It overhauled the aging internals of XP and gave it a new look to boot. Driver issues got nerds into a boil and they ended up sullying an operating system that didn't necessarily deserve all of the whiplashing.

This is the first time I disliked a Microsoft product this intensely. First time, in over the thirteen years I've been using Windows and Office.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

People bitch everytime microsoft gets ready to release an operating system. Happened with xp, happened with windows vista, happened with windows 7 so i don't expect this round to be any different.

Not quite the same...

[Buttus]

i haven't tried Metro with the preview out now, but did they ever fix metro so you could scroll up and down screens with the mouse wheel, instead of left and right?

left and right is just.... wrong...

[SharpGreen]

The issue with the Consumer Preview is the users.

QFT.

I've been using Windows 8 as my primary OS since the DP was released, and have yet to find any major problem with it. No functionality was removed with the removal of the start button and menu. It works exactly the same way just requires more screen real estate to do it. I also find the the All Apps screen to be 100x better than the puny cramped All programs menu of before and 1000x better than those annoying accordian menus from XP.

[djdanster]

I didn't bitch once about Vista. I loved it. It overhauled the aging internals of XP and gave it a new look to boot. Driver issues got nerds into a boil and they ended up sullying an operating system that didn't necessarily deserve all of the whiplashing.

This is the first time I disliked a Microsoft product this intensely. First time, in over the thirteen years I've been using Windows and Office.

I thought Vista was fine also. Drivers weren't an issue for me either.

Not quite the same...

Haha soooo true!

There is no familiarity! Screw all this PC 2.0 bullsh*t, I want something I can easily navigate around in. Metro is simply not good enough for a power user.

For example - Try finding the classic control panel in the Metro UI, or even the Desktop environment without having to resort to searching in the Metro UI. That's something power users / geeks will be going to most days of their Windows 8 life....

Windows 7 -

1. Start menu

2. Control Panel

Windows 8 -

1. Press Desktop on the Metro UI

2. Go to the libraries icon on the taskbar

3. Press Computer on the left file tree

4. Hover over the first tab (skip this step if you prefer the ribbon expanded like me)

5. Press Control Panel

2 or 3 extra unnecessary steps to get to the same place in both Windows 7 and Windows 8. Microsoft have literally given no design thought for the Geeks and power users. They just thought, oh lets shove their stuff in the corner and haul all the consumer bullsh*t in.

Microsoft has really dropped the ball on Windows 8 so far. The Metro UI, simply doesn't work efficiently enough for me and others (reference the Front page poll 60|40). It feels like Microsoft is leaving the power users in the dirt trail behind them in the search for Dumb users. In fact now I think of it, they can't be searching designing it for dumb users either as there is no intuitiveness, how on earth are regular joes expected to shut down their PC's at night time? How are they supposed to know how to find out or know what the charm bar is? Who the f**k have Microsoft designed Windows 8 for?!

Callums reply saying I haven't used it long enough in 3...2...1...

I kid :p

[MorganX]

Are you that retarded? Are you honestly able to believe that they forgot about their 90% market share, 95% of which uses desktops?

Metro UI is one UI to rule them all. Desktop. Laptop. Ultrabook. Tablet. Transformer. You name it, it'll fit it. If you're bitching about fullscreen apps, if you don't want them, don't use them! There is no reason you should be bitching about the new Start Menu.... Not when all the old functionality is STILL there.

I'm gonna have to agree with the guy you were responding to. MS and Windows XP/7 already rule the desktop and laptops. The one's they don't rule, Ultrabook, Tablet, Transformer, will all use a touch interface and will be great with metro. In addition, that's where the growth is. MS owns the desktop, the biggest growth are those who don't need or want a desktop. Right now those users are flocking to iPads and Android Tablets and matching phones. That is what MS is after here and I agree that is what Metro is for.

I think they are using their desktop dominance to further that Agenda. Who's to say if this is acceptable or not. It worked for Internet Explorer that's for sure ;> Prior to IE7, the only reason anyone used IE was because it was bundled with the dominant desktop OS.

[MorganX]

Windows 7 -

1. Start menu

2. Control Panel

Set taskbar to view Computer, Personal Folder, Control Panel, & Favorites as a menu instead of link. Now tell me how to duplicate that accessibility, functionality, and efficiency in Windows 8 ... I can hover on personal folders and with one click go through just about every piece of data on my PC all within no more than 1/4 of my screen space and that's only with a deeply nested folder. Like I said elsewhere, Windows 8 isn't "that" bad, Windows 7 is "that" good.

>>Who the f**k have Microsoft designed Windows 8 for?!<<

Not who, rather what? Tablets, Ultrabooks, and Transformers with a touchscreen, lol. But we need to differentiate Windows 8 from the Metro/Desktop hybrid UI/UX. If not for the mish-mash UI, Windows 8 would be the greatest OS ever. Under the hood its awesome, unfortunately, it's the UI humans interface with to take advantage of all the underlying technology.

I don't think this Hybrid UI was a knee-jerk reaction, I think it was a fearful reaction. With iPad 3's setting presales records, you can understand why. Apple is off to the same headstart and impenetrable mindshare with iPads as they got off to with iPhones. Android is doing well only because they are the cheap commodity alternative.