Why didn't MS segregate the tablet UI from the desktop UI?

[jakem1]

Metro style apps are designed to be touch-first. That's a fact.

I'm quoting Microsoft here:

There's a difference between what MS are saying and what you're implying. Just because Metro apps are designed to be first-class citizens in terms of touch doesn't mean that they can't also be designed to work equally well with a mouse and keyboard. WMC is a perfect example of this.

[XX55XX]

There's a difference between what MS are saying and what you're implying. Just because Metro apps are designed to be first-class citizens in terms of touch doesn't mean that they can't also be designed to work equally well with a mouse and keyboard. WMC is a perfect example of this.

Hence the need for easier app switching, app closing, and using mouse wheels to their best effect. All of which Metro currently fails at. If they rectified these problems, I would be open to using Windows 8 on a desktop.

[Vice]

Well done for trying to insult me, by the way, by wondering why I was asked to become a Global Moderator. Very classy (Y) Perhaps you should instead be wondering why you haven't ever been asked (I'm not suggesting you'd want to be a moderator, I'm just pointing that out, considering you attempted to insult me so).

Bye :)

On reflection you're right. I was overly harsh and I did insult you and I'm sorry for that. I hope you will accept my apology. You are not a bad Global Moderator. We may disagree on this Metro thing but that doesn't mean you deserved to be insulted by me and your position on the site brought in to question by me. That was wrong of me to say and I apologize.

I hope you can accept my apology. Sorry.

[ichi]

But you can still use windows 8 as standard desktop OS and use the start screen as just a start menu, arguably a better one.

You can, but for me at least it would be a jarring experience.

I'm using Gnome3 right now, and I can't say I'm fond of the Overview concept (quite the opposite). Metro's start screen has similar issues, only that in an annoyingly jarring fashion.

The problem anyway is not with whether I could use classic desktop now, it's about the direction Windows' window management is taking. It might improve in Windows9 (I certainly hope so) but if we are to live with 50-50 and 75-25 snaps you can bet on me passing.

If Microsoft went with a full tiling window manager, now that might be interesting.

[Dot Matrix]

Metro style apps are designed to be touch-first. That's a fact.

MetroTwit, WMC, and Zune all disagree. They're designed to be both. Microsoft is no dummy, they know people desktops, they haven't forgotten that. Hell, they're using Windows 8 powered desktops to write Windows 8! They have Windows 8 deployed company wide.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

There's a difference between what MS are saying and what you're implying. Just because Metro apps are designed to be first-class citizens in terms of touch doesn't mean that they can't also be designed to work equally well with a mouse and keyboard. WMC is a perfect example of this.

So you seriously don't think calling it "designed to be touch-first" tells you something about their priorities? If it works "equally well with a mouse and keyboard" why is it "touch-first"? Are you saying it is keyboard-and-mouse-first as well, since you seem to think it is a "first-class citizen in terms of" keyboard and mouse input too?

[Dot Matrix]

So you seriously don't think calling it "designed to be touch-first" tells you something about their priorities? If it works "equally well with a mouse and keyboard" why is it "touch-first"? Are you saying it is keyboard-and-mouse-first as well, since you seem to think it is a "first-class citizen in terms of" keyboard and mouse input too?

Just put it this way. 10 years from now how much do you think we'll be using mice? 20 years? Windows 8's UI is designed to work with a wide variety of input hardware. That's something the old shell32 paradigm can't do.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

Just put it this way. 10 years from now how much do you think we'll be using mice? 20 years?

Now you're switching from the question of whether it's a "touch-first" Ui to whether it is appropriate that it is.

[XX55XX]

Just put it this way. 10 years from now how much do you think we'll be using mice? 20 years? Windows 8's UI is designed to work with a wide variety of input hardware. That's something the old shell32 paradigm can't do.

And what will replace them? Please, tell me that you aren't using Kinect to control your computer. Obviously, Microsoft wants us to move in that direction where we swipe our hands at invisible objects and dictate to our computers inanely, but we haven't gotten there yet.

[LaP]

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Heavy lifting will be done on the desktop. The desktop is slowly becoming a niche market. Laptops are the mainstream right now and soon, so will tablets.

Strange but when i said that 2 years ago when the iPad was released people laughed at me. Back then i said the desktop would slowly shift to a workstation/hardcore gamers only status. That Joe Blow would get its mail, surf the web and such on phones and tablets and play games on console.

To me the shift is clear. I see more and more pople using phones and tablet for daily "computer" use (including myself). I see more and more people in conference typing on tablet touchscreen keyboard. I've seen a 40yo woman really good at it. She typed faster on his iPad virtual keyboard than i do using a regular small notebook keyboard. I was astonished. All those people will one day ask themself if they really need a computer. A computer is 400+ $. A tablet is 400$. A phone contract is expensive. Normal people have a family and obligation. Why would you spend 400+ $ on a PC if you already got a tablet, don't play games and don't use your pc as a workstation ? The HP TouchPad might have failed. But the Touchstone and bluetooth keyboard was a nice idea and i can see this becoming an option for people having trouble typing on a virtual keyboard.

The iPad and tablets in general are definately a threat for home windows desktop.

Windows 8 looks like a great tablet os (i used it on a desktop only) and it makes a lot of sense for Microsoft to invest a lot of money to be competitive in the console and tablet market as both are a clear threat to home windows. But as a workstation desktop os i personally hate it. It really feels like a tablet os. I wont go into details explaining why as many people already did this, in this thread and in many other threads, and i personally totally agree with them. But if things don't change i will simply pass on windows 8 for my desktop (i plan to buy a windows 8 tablet though). And imo most companies will pass on windows 8 too. I tried Windows 8 for my cie and would not recommend it personally. We are going to upgrade our windows xp computer next year and it will almost definately be windows 7.

I can understand that Microsoft wants to blend the desktop os and tablet/phone os the more than can. But using WP7 as a base for Windows tablet os then making Windows 8 for desktop look alike would have make a lot more sense to me.

[Dot Matrix]

Now you're switching from the question of whether it's a "touch-first" Ui to whether it is appropriate that it is.

Metro is an "everything" first UI.

And what will replace them? Please, tell me that you aren't using Kinect to control your computer. Obviously, Microsoft wants us to move in that direction where we swipe our hands at invisible objects and dictate to our computers inanely, but we haven't gotten there yet.

What won't replace them? Mice aren't going to be around forever. Keyboards yes, but mice? Ha!

Think about it, you have Kinect, you have touch, you have 360 controllers, you have trackpads...

[XX55XX]

Metro is an "everything" first UI.

What won't replace them? Mice aren't going to be around forever. Keyboards yes, but mice? Ha!

Think about it, you have Kinect, you have touch, you have 360 controllers, you have trackpads...

Would you use Kinect to write a paper? Program? How will you copy, cut and paste? How will file management be handled?

Mouse and keyboard will be with us until computers can read our minds.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

Metro is an "everything" first UI.

that, in Microsoft's own words, is "designed to be touch-first". But if you're right, and they just forgot to mention that it is also "first" for keyboard and mouse and everything else, Microsoft seems to have the only UI designers in the world able to create a UI that is optimized for any and all input methods you can think of all at the same time without compromises.

[Eric Veteran]

I have used it with a remote control in the past never a keyboard and mouse.

I think that was his point. BTW, the Metro start screen works just fine with a MC remote.

[Dot Matrix]

Would you use Kinect to write a paper? Program? How will you copy, cut and paste? How will file management be handled?

Mice are an ancient paradigm. They won't be around forever. What will replace them? I don't know, but with new ways to interact with computers, touch being the main one, mice are finding themselves in the back seat. Microsoft is redesigning Windows for the next 20 years of computing. Who knows what we'll have by then, but a mouse won't be it. But for right now, mice work just fine with Metro just as it does with Windows 7.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

Mice are an ancient paradigm. They won't be around forever. What will replace them? I don't know, but with new ways to interact with computers, touch being the main one, mice are finding themselves in the back seat. Microsoft is redesigning Windows for the next 20 years of computing. Who knows what we'll have by then, but a mouse won't be it.

And we're back at what the thread is about, segregating the tablet UI from the desktop UI, just like iOS is separate from OS X. Microsoft could have created 'Microsoft Metro' as a separate modern mobile touch-optimized OS. What does 'Metro' even still have to do with 'windows'. I don't see any windows there, just boxes or 'tiles'.

[sila]

It may be a UI that works best on tablets (although I disagree with that, at present), but it is not "a tablet UI" because it is a native part of Windows 8 on desktop PCs. Can you honestly not see what I'm saying?

Just because they've dug a chunk of mobile/touch os and slapped it onto Windows 8 does not mean it actually has any place being on the desktop. It would be like Apple simply being lazy shipping iOS with their Macbooks and iMacs, instead of simply taking the best and most suitable bits and just integrating those into their desktop OS.

I seriously think you need to give up this whole "Metro is not a touch/tablet UI" thing because it simply is. Just because they have shoehorned it onto the desktop does not change the fact that is simply what it is.

[XX55XX]

Mice are an ancient paradigm. They won't be around forever. What will replace them? I don't know, but with new ways to interact with computers, touch being the main one, mice are finding themselves in the back seat. Microsoft is redesigning Windows for the next 20 years of computing. Who knows what we'll have by then, but a mouse won't be it. But for right now, mice work just fine with Metro just as it does with Windows 7.

Precisely. No one has figured out a more efficient way of controlling a computer. You don't even know where the future is going. Kinect is in interesting experiment - but that is all it is - an experiment. Mouse and keyboard works. There is no need for any change. At least until computers can read our minds and we can just think our way through while computing.

Touch is needed because tablets and smartphones demand it. But, on the desktop, mouse and keyboard still reign supreme.

I recall Xbox users saying that it was easier to use the D-pad to get to a tile that they want rather than saying "Xbox..." over their headsets. The old paradigms of control are still superior because the new ideas are so half-baked.

[ichi]

Microsoft is redesigning Windows for the next 20 years of computing. Who knows what we'll have by then, but a mouse won't be it.

Microsoft is redesigning Windows for touch. If something ever replaces the mouse (and you can bet it won't be touch, first because it lacks accuracy and second because it's an ergonomical nightmare to get work done with it) Microsoft will have to redesign the OS again.

[Calum Veteran]

On reflection you're right. I was overly harsh and I did insult you and I'm sorry for that. I hope you will accept my apology. You are not a bad Global Moderator. We may disagree on this Metro thing but that doesn't mean you deserved to be insulted by me and your position on the site brought in to question by me. That was wrong of me to say and I apologize.

I hope you can accept my apology. Sorry.

I do accept your apology, and I appreciate you posting that :) Thank you :)

I know I'm not perfect :p I think it's clear that some people genuinely believe I'm being condescending, arrogant, or whatever else they say, so I'm going to look back on some of my recent posts and try to figure out what I'm doing wrong :) Further, I apologise for coming across that way. I certainly don't mean to come across that way, and I don't mean to act as if my opinion is definitely the correct one (or that my opinion is above any other), so I'll try to figure out why that comes across in my posts, and I'll try to make sure it doesn't in future :)

[Vice]

I do accept your apology, and I appreciate you posting that :) Thank you :)

I know I'm not perfect :p I think it's clear that some people genuinely believe I'm being condescending, arrogant, or whatever else they say, so I'm going to look back on some of my recent posts and try to figure out what I'm doing wrong :) Further, I apologise for coming across that way. I certainly don't mean to come across that way, and I don't mean to act as if my opinion is definitely the correct one (or that my opinion is above any other), so I'll try to figure out why that comes across in my posts, and I'll try to make sure it doesn't in future :)

:wub: thank you for accepting my apology.

[psreloaded]

This thread has the potential to become as large as the Official religion thread :D :D

[Calum Veteran]

Just because they've dug a chunk of mobile/touch os and slapped it onto Windows 8 does not mean it actually has any place being on the desktop. It would be like Apple simply being lazy shipping iOS with their Macbooks and iMacs, instead of simply taking the best and most suitable bits and just integrating those into their desktop OS.

I seriously think you need to give up this whole "Metro is not a touch/tablet UI" thing because it simply is. Just because they have shoehorned it onto the desktop does not change the fact that is simply what it is.

I'm not sure whether it belongs on the desktop or not. At the moment I think it does, but that opinion may change over the months, as I use Windows 8. I'd really like to try some Metro apps that allow me to do productive work related to software developing; I think only then will I be certain whether the user interface can harm my productivity. Either way, my problem with people referring to it as "a tablet UI" is all about semantics, rather than whether it actually belongs on the desktop.

[XX55XX]

This thread has the potential to become as large as the Official religion thread :D :D

Bad UIs get in the way of my software. Driver problems can be rectified easily, because those are not fundamental problems. But, once a bad UI paradigm starts, there is no easy way of going back.

[Dot Matrix]

And we're back at what the thread is about, segregating the tablet UI from the desktop UI, just like iOS is separate from OS X. Microsoft could have created 'Microsoft Metro' as a separate modern mobile touch-optimized OS. What does 'Metro' even still have to do with 'windows'. I don't see any windows there, just boxes or 'tiles'.

Again, Metro is more than a "tablet UI". You're not using trackpads, Kinects, controllers, or remotes on tablets. And while these ideas are still upcoming, they work, and as such need an OS that can work with them. When Microsoft designed the Start Menu/taskbar paradigm, we didn't have all these other options.