More bad news for Windows 8...

[KillTheIrishman]

I realize (like anyone should) that the codecs are a licensing problem. This thread is BS as there are so many FREE alternatives out there. Just my 2 cents.

[DevilsNotDead]

Bad news for 8 is not this! its w7.. since w7 is popular w8 will not sell well just like vista.

8 is doomed for sure.

[briango]

The cost of the DVD player licensing fee is probably under $5. IMO the license fee isn't the issue for microsoft, it's the cost of tech support to cover it.

They're probably tired of having to deal with problems that aren't their fault. Bad DVD drives, defective discs, and video drivers.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

The whole debate doesn't make sense. I'm sure the licensing fees are minimal and definitely not rising for DVD playback and it would have been good to see Windows 8 expand on that and add BluRay support. But that isn't the issue. The debate seems to hinge on the idea that the exclusion of these licenses are going to have a meaningful impact on the price of the software. For starters, we have no idea how much the licensing fees are, but there is no evidence to support them lowering the cost of Windows due to this.

After all, it was Windows Vista that gained DVD codec support, among others, and they lowered the price between Vista and 7 while still including the codec...

There are large parts of Windows that are used by niche segments of the market, but aren't removed from the OS. For instance, disk quota support has been in Windows since at least Windows 95 and is so seldom used that the dialog in Windows 7 still carries the look of Windows 95! Put more cleanly, why isn't Microsoft removing MP3 support from Windows? I'm sure the majority of users use iTunes or something other than Windows Media Player... There is a cost to removing the feature compared to leaving it in place.

That being said, this isn't being done as a cost cutting measure. This is being done as a market segmentation measure. My inclination is that Microsoft wants to push the XBOX 360 (and its successor) as the living room box and cut out the competition from Windows itself in that regard.

[farmeunit]

I realize (like anyone should) that the codecs are a licensing problem. This thread is BS as there are so many FREE alternatives out there. Just my 2 cents.

I think the purpose of the thread was to say they're removing something that was added, and the majority of REGULAR people don't know about MPC, VLC, or any other player.

And it won't make the OS any cheaper. REGULAR people will just have to spend more to get that functionality.

[dafin0]

I think the purpose of the thread was to say they're removing something that was added, and the majority of REGULAR people don't know about MPC, VLC, or any other player.

And it won't make the OS any cheaper. REGULAR people will just have to spend more to get that functionality.

not true

take this for example. buy a computer with windows 7 and a bluray player, windows 7 doesn't support bluray but the computer will still come with the software needed to play it.

the only people who will have a problem are the ones that make their own computers but if they can do that im sure they know how to install a codec pack.

[remixedcat]

snippy-snip-snipped...

There are whole forums for people like that though. These people have money to burn... please them and the money from them will come... **** them off... they seek alternatives...

[Southern Patriot]

According to Microsoft only 6% of users use Windows Media Center. I would hardly say that's 'TONS'.

With probably one billion Windows users in the world (and there are likely more than that), that would come out to 60,000,000 people using it. That's quite a large number, no matter how you look at it

[nohone]

The whole debate doesn't make sense. I'm sure the licensing fees are minimal and definitely not rising for DVD playback and it would have been good to see Windows 8 expand on that and add BluRay support.

Motorola is currently suing Microsoft for $4 Billion / year for various patents. One of these patents include video decoding, which covers WMC and DVD playback. if it were $4 Million, I don't see Microsoft pulling it. But $4 Billion, that is a different story.

I also don't see what the big deal is. When the Mac Mini was released, there was a small but very vocal group that were happy that the Mini no longer had DVD players. If getting rid of DVD players is good, then what is the need for DVD playing software?

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Motorola is currently suing Microsoft for $4 Billion / year for various patents. One of these patents include video decoding, which covers WMC and DVD playback. if it were $4 Million, I don't see Microsoft pulling it. But $4 Billion, that is a different story.

I also don't see what the big deal is. When the Mac Mini was released, there was a small but very vocal group that were happy that the Mini no longer had DVD players. If getting rid of DVD players is good, then what is the need for DVD playing software?

Microsoft is also suing Motorola with various patents and seeking various licensing fees. Microsoft, nor any other major tech company with the money to fight these battles, won't cripple their software based on pending litigation unless ordered to do so by the courts. Trust me, Microsoft isn't removing anything from Windows based on allegations (which is what this is until a court agrees) that their software infringes on some patent that Google has...

[nohone]

Microsoft is also suing Motorola with various patents and seeking various licensing fees. Microsoft, nor any other major tech company with the money to fight these battles, won't cripple their software based on pending litigation unless ordered to do so by the courts. Trust me, Microsoft isn't removing anything from Windows based on allegations (which is what this is until a court agrees) that their software infringes on some patent that Google has...

On April 23rd, Motorola won their law suit against Microsoft on video playback on the Xbox. A panel now needs to decide if they can block shipments of XBox. Since Xbox and Windows shares many components, such as media encoding/decoding, Current and future versions of Windows could be blocked also.

But what you are really saying is that MS should pay Motorola $4B/year to keep media software in Windows. And you don't think that Microsoft would pass that cost along to the buyer? If MS is paying $5/copy of Windows now for media playback (just pulled that number out of the air, but I think it is a good guesstimate) and now the price goes up to $28/copy Windows ($4B/145M copies of Windows sold per year) you don't think that Microsoft will up the price on Windows? And you would happily pay $23 more for your copy of Windows, even if you don't watch DVDs on your device, or your device (such as a tablet) does not have a DVD player? Or do you just want Microsoft to eat the difference?

[PixilEyes]

HTPCs are a enthusiast niche market, and not suitable for the average users, and it's a small and stable niche. The only growth in that market matches the growth, of the computer market as a whole, and is far less than the growth of the PVR market, which is really taking off.

I disagree. I see more and more non-enthusiast using their notebooks with HDMI to stream Netflix to their TV. IMO this market is growing and is far from being a niche. With HDMI becoming standard on so many devices this market will only grow.

[giantpotato]

With probably one billion Windows users in the world (and there are likely more than that), that would come out to 60,000,000 people using it. That's quite a large number, no matter how you look at it

So let's assume there are 1 billion Windows users. According to this the MPEG-2 Patent License is $2.50 per decoder (I don't know how accurate this is, but lets assume it is). Logically, from a business standpoint, why would Microsoft want to pay 2.5 billion dollars instead of paying 150 million to satisfy the same number of users. Paying for a license for all copies is the equivalent of flushing billions of dollars down the toilet for a feature that won't be used by 94% of users.

[Dot Matrix]

Glad to see the thread title was changed to something more respectable.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

On April 23rd, Motorola won their law suit against Microsoft on video playback on the Xbox. A panel now needs to decide if they can block shipments of XBox. Since Xbox and Windows shares many components, such as media encoding/decoding, Current and future versions of Windows could be blocked also.

But what you are really saying is that MS should pay Motorola $4B/year to keep media software in Windows. And you don't think that Microsoft would pass that cost along to the buyer? If MS is paying $5/copy of Windows now for media playback (just pulled that number out of the air, but I think it is a good guesstimate) and now the price goes up to $28/copy Windows ($4B/145M copies of Windows sold per year) you don't think that Microsoft will up the price on Windows? And you would happily pay $23 more for your copy of Windows, even if you don't watch DVDs on your device, or your device (such as a tablet) does not have a DVD player? Or do you just want Microsoft to eat the difference?

I have no idea what the patent claims were in the Motorola suit so you would need to give me a case citation so I can figure it out. That being said, your statement on what Motorola won is very broad. If Motorola is able to demand royalties from MS for video playback then they should be removing far more than DVD codecs. That would entail them to remove Windows Media Player completely since it can still playback non-DVD related video, at least. So this isn't a move to stem that patent claim as you've worded it anyway.

[Rudy]

I don't really see it as a bad news :/

[PGHammer]

Bad news for 8 is not this! its w7.. since w7 is popular w8 will not sell well just like vista.

8 is doomed for sure.

Wrong.

The big issue with Windows 8's Consumer Preview (according to the detractors) is the lack of the Start menu/button (the UI) - not compatibility (with applications or hardware or anything else).

The detractors themselves admit that the Consumer Preview has no application-compatibility issues. I've been running it as sole OS - and I haven't found any issues on that front, either. (And this is on a *desktop*.)

The same issue did, in fact, apply to Windows 7 Home Premium and above (all of which included Media Player) - a codec issue. (I remember that big brouhaha - because it *directly* affected the Consumer Preview of Windows 7.)

For the BYOPC crowd, the codecs will likely come bundled with motherboards/GPUs/etc. - as is, in fact, the case today.

Pre-builts - they will come with the PC - as has been the case since Windows XP.

Basically, this is a great big non-issue for the majority of PC owners upgrading to Windows 8's Consumer Preview.

[bjoswald]

I guess it's not necessarily bad news, but it's definitely annoying. I rarely watch DVDs on my PC anymore, but when I do, the last thing I want to do is search for a damn codec. Even Ubuntu will do the grunt work for me when an OS needs a codec I don't have.

Patents can burn in hell IMO.

[BajiRav]

Motorola is currently suing Microsoft for $4 Billion / year for various patents. One of these patents include video decoding, which covers WMC and DVD playback. if it were $4 Million, I don't see Microsoft pulling it. But $4 Billion, that is a different story.

I also don't see what the big deal is. When the Mac Mini was released, there was a small but very vocal group that were happy that the Mini no longer had DVD players. If getting rid of DVD players is good, then what is the need for DVD playing software?

h.264 is still included.

[George P Global Moderator]

I guess it's not necessarily bad news, but it's definitely annoying. I rarely watch DVDs on my PC anymore, but when I do, the last thing I want to do is search for a damn codec. Even Ubuntu will do the grunt work for me when an OS needs a codec I don't have.

Patents can burn in hell IMO.

Now that Windows 8 has it's own marketplace if you try to do something that needs something else installed it could show you a list of choices in the store and then just let you download and install the one you think is best. To that extent it's just like the software center in ubuntu really, search, install, done.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Where has anybody said you'd have to pay for it? Perhaps you're unaware that there is a myriad of media players out there that DO still include DVD playback codecs, including the excellent (icon aside) VLC.

Does VLC have TV Recording feature with full EPG and Timeshifting support?

Do the myriad of other media players do it?

No. Which means even if you don't want DVD playback you are still going to have to pay for it just to get Windows Media Center.

[spaceelf]

Sweet. Less crap on my comp I never use is a good deal.

I feel for people who can't be arsed to buy a cheap piece of hardware to do what they need...really.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Sweet. Less crap on my comp I never use is a good deal.

I feel for people who can't be arsed to buy a cheap piece of hardware to do what they need...really.

Its not just about DVD playback though........I use Windows Media Center with Arcsoft Total Media Theatre for Blu-Ray playback, i also use WMC to watch and record TV. Now I'm going to have to pay for WMC when it was previously free.

[George P Global Moderator]

Does VLC have TV Recording feature with full EPG and Timeshifting support?

Do the myriad of other media players do it?

No. Which means even if you don't want DVD playback you are still going to have to pay for it just to get Windows Media Center.

DVD playback comes with media center, it's not just dvd playback or dvd playback + media center. If you want them you get both or go with a free player just for DVD. Installing MS's pack after doesn't let you use media player to play dvds, it lets you use media center to play dvds. That's the distinction here, there's no dvd supper in WMP after this unless people find out how to add that back using some 3rd party code, which is still possible.

To me it seems like MS is ready to ditch Media Player as well as Media Center after this point. Personally I use other software, MPC for videos and the Zune software for my music. I never liked WMP.

[George P Global Moderator]

Its not just about DVD playback though........I use Windows Media Center with Arcsoft Total Media Theatre for Blu-Ray playback, i also use WMC to watch and record TV. Now I'm going to have to pay for WMC when it was previously free.

But it wasn't free, it was in the cost of the OS license from the get go. MS has explained this already, officially. You always paid for it, you just didn't know about it or think about it.