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The cost of the DVD player licensing fee is probably under $5. IMO the license fee isn't the issue for microsoft, it's the cost of tech support to cover it.

They're probably tired of having to deal with problems that aren't their fault. Bad DVD drives, defective discs, and video drivers.

The whole debate doesn't make sense. I'm sure the licensing fees are minimal and definitely not rising for DVD playback and it would have been good to see Windows 8 expand on that and add BluRay support. But that isn't the issue. The debate seems to hinge on the idea that the exclusion of these licenses are going to have a meaningful impact on the price of the software. For starters, we have no idea how much the licensing fees are, but there is no evidence to support them lowering the cost of Windows due to this.

After all, it was Windows Vista that gained DVD codec support, among others, and they lowered the price between Vista and 7 while still including the codec...

There are large parts of Windows that are used by niche segments of the market, but aren't removed from the OS. For instance, disk quota support has been in Windows since at least Windows 95 and is so seldom used that the dialog in Windows 7 still carries the look of Windows 95! Put more cleanly, why isn't Microsoft removing MP3 support from Windows? I'm sure the majority of users use iTunes or something other than Windows Media Player... There is a cost to removing the feature compared to leaving it in place.

That being said, this isn't being done as a cost cutting measure. This is being done as a market segmentation measure. My inclination is that Microsoft wants to push the XBOX 360 (and its successor) as the living room box and cut out the competition from Windows itself in that regard.

I realize (like anyone should) that the codecs are a licensing problem. This thread is BS as there are so many FREE alternatives out there. Just my 2 cents.

I think the purpose of the thread was to say they're removing something that was added, and the majority of REGULAR people don't know about MPC, VLC, or any other player.

And it won't make the OS any cheaper. REGULAR people will just have to spend more to get that functionality.

I think the purpose of the thread was to say they're removing something that was added, and the majority of REGULAR people don't know about MPC, VLC, or any other player.

And it won't make the OS any cheaper. REGULAR people will just have to spend more to get that functionality.

not true

take this for example. buy a computer with windows 7 and a bluray player, windows 7 doesn't support bluray but the computer will still come with the software needed to play it.

the only people who will have a problem are the ones that make their own computers but if they can do that im sure they know how to install a codec pack.

  • Like 1

snippy-snip-snipped...

There are whole forums for people like that though. These people have money to burn... please them and the money from them will come... **** them off... they seek alternatives...

According to Microsoft only 6% of users use Windows Media Center. I would hardly say that's 'TONS'.

With probably one billion Windows users in the world (and there are likely more than that), that would come out to 60,000,000 people using it. That's quite a large number, no matter how you look at it

  • Like 3

The whole debate doesn't make sense. I'm sure the licensing fees are minimal and definitely not rising for DVD playback and it would have been good to see Windows 8 expand on that and add BluRay support.

Motorola is currently suing Microsoft for $4 Billion / year for various patents. One of these patents include video decoding, which covers WMC and DVD playback. if it were $4 Million, I don't see Microsoft pulling it. But $4 Billion, that is a different story.

I also don't see what the big deal is. When the Mac Mini was released, there was a small but very vocal group that were happy that the Mini no longer had DVD players. If getting rid of DVD players is good, then what is the need for DVD playing software?

Motorola is currently suing Microsoft for $4 Billion / year for various patents. One of these patents include video decoding, which covers WMC and DVD playback. if it were $4 Million, I don't see Microsoft pulling it. But $4 Billion, that is a different story.

I also don't see what the big deal is. When the Mac Mini was released, there was a small but very vocal group that were happy that the Mini no longer had DVD players. If getting rid of DVD players is good, then what is the need for DVD playing software?

Microsoft is also suing Motorola with various patents and seeking various licensing fees. Microsoft, nor any other major tech company with the money to fight these battles, won't cripple their software based on pending litigation unless ordered to do so by the courts. Trust me, Microsoft isn't removing anything from Windows based on allegations (which is what this is until a court agrees) that their software infringes on some patent that Google has...

  • Like 1

Microsoft is also suing Motorola with various patents and seeking various licensing fees. Microsoft, nor any other major tech company with the money to fight these battles, won't cripple their software based on pending litigation unless ordered to do so by the courts. Trust me, Microsoft isn't removing anything from Windows based on allegations (which is what this is until a court agrees) that their software infringes on some patent that Google has...

On April 23rd, Motorola won their law suit against Microsoft on video playback on the Xbox. A panel now needs to decide if they can block shipments of XBox. Since Xbox and Windows shares many components, such as media encoding/decoding, Current and future versions of Windows could be blocked also.

But what you are really saying is that MS should pay Motorola $4B/year to keep media software in Windows. And you don't think that Microsoft would pass that cost along to the buyer? If MS is paying $5/copy of Windows now for media playback (just pulled that number out of the air, but I think it is a good guesstimate) and now the price goes up to $28/copy Windows ($4B/145M copies of Windows sold per year) you don't think that Microsoft will up the price on Windows? And you would happily pay $23 more for your copy of Windows, even if you don't watch DVDs on your device, or your device (such as a tablet) does not have a DVD player? Or do you just want Microsoft to eat the difference?

HTPCs are a enthusiast niche market, and not suitable for the average users, and it's a small and stable niche. The only growth in that market matches the growth, of the computer market as a whole, and is far less than the growth of the PVR market, which is really taking off.

I disagree. I see more and more non-enthusiast using their notebooks with HDMI to stream Netflix to their TV. IMO this market is growing and is far from being a niche. With HDMI becoming standard on so many devices this market will only grow.

  • Like 1

With probably one billion Windows users in the world (and there are likely more than that), that would come out to 60,000,000 people using it. That's quite a large number, no matter how you look at it

So let's assume there are 1 billion Windows users. According to this the MPEG-2 Patent License is $2.50 per decoder (I don't know how accurate this is, but lets assume it is). Logically, from a business standpoint, why would Microsoft want to pay 2.5 billion dollars instead of paying 150 million to satisfy the same number of users. Paying for a license for all copies is the equivalent of flushing billions of dollars down the toilet for a feature that won't be used by 94% of users.

On April 23rd, Motorola won their law suit against Microsoft on video playback on the Xbox. A panel now needs to decide if they can block shipments of XBox. Since Xbox and Windows shares many components, such as media encoding/decoding, Current and future versions of Windows could be blocked also.

But what you are really saying is that MS should pay Motorola $4B/year to keep media software in Windows. And you don't think that Microsoft would pass that cost along to the buyer? If MS is paying $5/copy of Windows now for media playback (just pulled that number out of the air, but I think it is a good guesstimate) and now the price goes up to $28/copy Windows ($4B/145M copies of Windows sold per year) you don't think that Microsoft will up the price on Windows? And you would happily pay $23 more for your copy of Windows, even if you don't watch DVDs on your device, or your device (such as a tablet) does not have a DVD player? Or do you just want Microsoft to eat the difference?

I have no idea what the patent claims were in the Motorola suit so you would need to give me a case citation so I can figure it out. That being said, your statement on what Motorola won is very broad. If Motorola is able to demand royalties from MS for video playback then they should be removing far more than DVD codecs. That would entail them to remove Windows Media Player completely since it can still playback non-DVD related video, at least. So this isn't a move to stem that patent claim as you've worded it anyway.

Bad news for 8 is not this! its w7.. since w7 is popular w8 will not sell well just like vista.

8 is doomed for sure.

Wrong.

The big issue with Windows 8's Consumer Preview (according to the detractors) is the lack of the Start menu/button (the UI) - not compatibility (with applications or hardware or anything else).

The detractors themselves admit that the Consumer Preview has no application-compatibility issues. I've been running it as sole OS - and I haven't found any issues on that front, either. (And this is on a *desktop*.)

The same issue did, in fact, apply to Windows 7 Home Premium and above (all of which included Media Player) - a codec issue. (I remember that big brouhaha - because it *directly* affected the Consumer Preview of Windows 7.)

For the BYOPC crowd, the codecs will likely come bundled with motherboards/GPUs/etc. - as is, in fact, the case today.

Pre-builts - they will come with the PC - as has been the case since Windows XP.

Basically, this is a great big non-issue for the majority of PC owners upgrading to Windows 8's Consumer Preview.

I guess it's not necessarily bad news, but it's definitely annoying. I rarely watch DVDs on my PC anymore, but when I do, the last thing I want to do is search for a damn codec. Even Ubuntu will do the grunt work for me when an OS needs a codec I don't have.

Patents can burn in hell IMO.

  • Like 1

Motorola is currently suing Microsoft for $4 Billion / year for various patents. One of these patents include video decoding, which covers WMC and DVD playback. if it were $4 Million, I don't see Microsoft pulling it. But $4 Billion, that is a different story.

I also don't see what the big deal is. When the Mac Mini was released, there was a small but very vocal group that were happy that the Mini no longer had DVD players. If getting rid of DVD players is good, then what is the need for DVD playing software?

h.264 is still included.

I guess it's not necessarily bad news, but it's definitely annoying. I rarely watch DVDs on my PC anymore, but when I do, the last thing I want to do is search for a damn codec. Even Ubuntu will do the grunt work for me when an OS needs a codec I don't have.

Patents can burn in hell IMO.

Now that Windows 8 has it's own marketplace if you try to do something that needs something else installed it could show you a list of choices in the store and then just let you download and install the one you think is best. To that extent it's just like the software center in ubuntu really, search, install, done.

Where has anybody said you'd have to pay for it? Perhaps you're unaware that there is a myriad of media players out there that DO still include DVD playback codecs, including the excellent (icon aside) VLC.

Does VLC have TV Recording feature with full EPG and Timeshifting support?

Do the myriad of other media players do it?

No. Which means even if you don't want DVD playback you are still going to have to pay for it just to get Windows Media Center.

Sweet. Less crap on my comp I never use is a good deal.

I feel for people who can't be arsed to buy a cheap piece of hardware to do what they need...really.

Its not just about DVD playback though........I use Windows Media Center with Arcsoft Total Media Theatre for Blu-Ray playback, i also use WMC to watch and record TV. Now I'm going to have to pay for WMC when it was previously free.

Does VLC have TV Recording feature with full EPG and Timeshifting support?

Do the myriad of other media players do it?

No. Which means even if you don't want DVD playback you are still going to have to pay for it just to get Windows Media Center.

DVD playback comes with media center, it's not just dvd playback or dvd playback + media center. If you want them you get both or go with a free player just for DVD. Installing MS's pack after doesn't let you use media player to play dvds, it lets you use media center to play dvds. That's the distinction here, there's no dvd supper in WMP after this unless people find out how to add that back using some 3rd party code, which is still possible.

To me it seems like MS is ready to ditch Media Player as well as Media Center after this point. Personally I use other software, MPC for videos and the Zune software for my music. I never liked WMP.

Its not just about DVD playback though........I use Windows Media Center with Arcsoft Total Media Theatre for Blu-Ray playback, i also use WMC to watch and record TV. Now I'm going to have to pay for WMC when it was previously free.

But it wasn't free, it was in the cost of the OS license from the get go. MS has explained this already, officially. You always paid for it, you just didn't know about it or think about it.

  • Like 1
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    • I'm not happy with myself for it, but I've gone and got hold of it. Just another 45 minutes and I'll be Bond, James Bond. In my defence, IO's Hitman series is awesome, and I'm a sucker for 007. So while it might seem a bit simplified compared to Hitman, I'm sure I'll be right at home.
    • Or just check the script yourself ^^. I hate having a Microsoft account tied to my windows install.
    • 007 First Light review: Satisfying spy adventure that James Bond needed by Pulasthi Ariyasinghe I have fond memories of classic James Bond games from the Electronic Arts era. Using high-tech gadgets, sneaking into parties, and dispatching bad guys were wildly exciting activities for my younger self. In recent years, Bond games have entirely disappeared, alongside the super spy genre. Fast forward to 2020, imagine my surprise when IO Interactive announced it had secured the Bond IP to make a game. Considering the studio’s Hitman history, this project is one I keenly kept an eye on. Six years later, 007 First Light is finally here, and after spending time inside this globe-trotting adventure, I can safely say that my excitement for this developer’s take on this universe was not unfounded. IO has taken lessons it has learned from Hitman and combined them with what I would expect from a directed cinematic experience like James Bond. I have refrained from mentioning major plot points to save you from story spoilers in this review. This is an original story that doesn’t tie into any movies, so there isn’t an expectation of knowing the backstory or the decades of movies either. Bond, James Bond When 007 First Light begins, Bond is just Bond. There isn’t a spy angle, fancy gadgets, or even a secret mission. The introductory mission is framed to show how James Bond handled himself and how he does not care about the odds when it comes to saving lives. It’s a gorgeous level as well, showing off an island scattered with cliffs in the middle of a storm. Looking back, this is probably the best-looking level in the game, with IO showing off all its abilities with its custom engine, Glacier. But my favorite ended up being the follow-up to this level. Once the United Kingdom's foreign intelligence agency, MI6, recruits our daring youngster into its super-spy “00” program, training begins. However, instead of treading through the same tutorial missions where the game teaches you to run and jump and drive, IO opted for a montage, and it’s amazing. The scenes cut between Bond practicing and improving his marksmanship, parkour, hand-to-hand combat, and driving as weeks go by in his training. What impressed me here was the lack of any loading screens or stutters as scenes instantly switched to different locations entirely, as if I was watching a movie. This creativity is a trend I noticed in most levels, where there is some sort of gameplay or choreography mechanic being introduced to keep things interesting. Soon, the rest of the cast is introduced, bringing other agents that our favorite secret agent will be working with, the scientists and engineers that build MI6’s spy gadgets, as well as higher-ranking officers that either appreciate or (at best) tolerate Bond’s rebellious attitude. It’s a tight cast, all with incredibly good voice acting and personalities that quickly grew on me. The casting for Bond himself is also an excellent one. From showing his iconic soft spot for women to the condescending smiles that get a rise out of enemies, I had no issues getting immersed into this universe as this new face of James Bond. The missions take place in a wide range of locations as MI6 sends Bond to tackle dangers that are growing everywhere from the UK to Africa. These aren’t unrelated adventures where MI6 is sending secret agents, which is an angle I would love to see in another game, but a part of a bigger conspiracy affecting the entire world. Some of the twists and turns were all too predictable, and the character that Lenny Kravitz played made me cringe a little too much. But all in all, I enjoyed the campaign’s storyline that sets the stage for this new agent joining the illustrious “00” program. Plenty of Possibilities The third-person style of IO Interactive fits this role quite well. Bond is presented as a master at hand-to-hand combat as well as firearms, while also having a knack for being stealthy when required. Most sections of missions have a lot of freedom. This means I could beat up every goon and security guard on the way to an objective, slip past them without sounding a single alarm, or do a mix of both. My sessions usually end up with the third option because I tend to be impatient about waiting for a patrol to move. Drawing from its Hitman genes, the developer almost always gives multiple routes for going through missions. Levels can be massive, sometimes sporting hundreds of NPCs going their own ways and having conversations. If my objective is to break into a security room on the third floor, I could look around for roof access, eavesdrop on conversations to find out where someone lost a key, create a distraction and pickpocket a guard for a keycard, sneak in through the vents, or simply kick down the offending door. I enjoyed the variety on offer, especially because the same solutions didn’t usually show up in different missions. Before heading out into a secret MI6 escapade, the gadget specialist of the branch walks Bond through the organization's latest and greatest achievements. This can be cool little devices like a laser built into the watch, a phone that fires poison darts, or a camera that emits a powerful shockwave. The choice of what can be taken into the mission is up to the player. I could usually find fresh routes or get out of tough situations with a punch or two, so I never had the feeling of missing out by not choosing the right equipment. It’s still a fun practice. Choosing the armaments before a mission enhanced the super spy feeling quite a bit. As I mentioned, stealth comes in as a very viable option for most of the missions, letting Bond sneak past foes or knock them out silently. While it is satisfying to clear entire areas of goons and walk away without any alarms, the way of accomplishing this could have been done better. Bond can lure enemies, sneak up and knock them out, or use a gadget to disorient them before dealing a nasty blow. Bodies cannot be moved or hidden afterward either. It’s a very simple system, which I wish were more exciting to pull off. Perhaps more stealth-orientated gadgets, distraction options, or multi-takedowns could have helped here, I think. Getting caught while attempting to be in stealth does not mean a game over. Other than getting into a fist fight, an interesting twist of 007 First Light is the bluffing option. While an enemy is confused as to what you are doing in a restricted location, Bond has the option to improvise and persuade them that you are exactly where you’re supposed to be. These are fun little dynamic interactions with unique dialog depending on the mission and location, giving a few extra moments for Bond to go past suspicious guards smoothly. It’s the first time I’ve witnessed this system in a game, and I hope to see more. License to Kill Bond isn’t just dealing with security guards or civilians. From time to time, entire gangs of gun-toting mercenaries show up in levels looking to take down our protagonist. It is then that License to Kill mode is activated for Bond, letting him use firearms with no restrictions. I was surprised by just how tight gunplay is in 007 First Light. The weapons feel powerful and satisfying to fire, with single bullets capable of taking down an enemy with a headshot. Ammo is scarce, and enemies don’t drop weapons with full magazines most of the time. This forces a hectic kind of gameplay where I am always advancing towards enemies to take their weapons after they are downed. Things like shooting legs to immobilize, aiming at the hands to make their weapon go flying, blowing up nearby fire extinguishers for cover, and using gadgets to halt a goon in their tracks while I reload, make up enjoyable levels. I had to hold back my disappointment when the enemy count in these action sequences dropped to zero and I had to go non-lethal again. Speaking of action sequences, First Light isn’t just offering sandbox levels to complete at the player’s own leisure either. Each level comes with specific linear and directed scenes to move the story forward and put Bond in tight situations. These usually end up with high-octane chases or driving sections, offering the chance to witness chaining explosions, hails of gunfire, and scripted parkour scenes that remind me of Mission Impossible movies more than Bond. Elements like seeing James Bond jump out of a plane without a parachute or drive through buildings in London inside a trash truck were fantastic and always left me at a high point when finishing a mission. The classic James Bond theme is sprinkled in here too, which only happens a handful of times in the game, but at just the right moments. Visuals and Performance Compared to Unreal Engine 5 games we are seeing nowadays, 007 First Light isn’t flexing a huge amount of realism when it comes to graphics. The models, textures, and effects all feel a little dated, with the starting mission that I mentioned being the most visually striking. However, the complete lack of stutters, the hundreds of NPCs that can be on screen without a single hitch, massive sandbox levels, and smooth transitions between them all play a part in making this an immensely immersive and complex experience. The in-engine cutscenes are gorgeous as well, offering an upgraded visual style and model detail over the gameplay sections. Animations are one aspect that jumps out at me about any new game, and First Light has nailed what a third-person action game should feel like. Walking, sneaking, and running all have a heaviness to them that I appreciate. Whenever Bond moves past a wall or a ledge, his arms reach out to lightly hold those structures until he moves away. NPCs actually react to my character and move out of the way. Even during melee combat or takedown animations, the fists impacting a body or a head hitting a wall all have that same weight. Even the more frivolous animations, like catching a gun in midair or chucking an empty one at a goon (yes, you can do that), are satisfying to pull off. Of course, the in-engine cutscene animations are remarkably well done too, with facial animations and the upgraded model details improving my engagement with the characters. I have an AMD Radeon RX 9070 XT 16GB paired with an eight-core Ryzen 7 3700X and 32GB of RAM, with the game running at 1440p resolution. Deciding to completely max out all the graphics options gave me a range of frame rates between 60 and 100 depending on the scene and level. While I did try to enable AMD FSR, which bumped up the frame rates by a good 20% at Quality mode, IO Interactive’s implementation of the technology wasn’t that great. Every corner and edge in levels began shimmering, and I was also seeing smearing issues in fast-moving sections. The title seemingly uses the older generation FSR 3.1 and not the machine learning-assisted FSR 4, leading to these artifacts. Unfortunately, there isn't a way to manually upgrade this right now either. I opted to turn off the upscaling and play the game in native 1440p to avoid problems. I would say the FPS range I was getting was an acceptable one for a single-player action game for my setup. I do wish there were an FOV slider option in the settings. While the camera is far enough back for my tastes in most situations in this third-person adventure, at times the perspective is far too close. When trying to look around quickly and spot targets, I realized I was getting a slight headache at times due to the use of an almost over-the-shoulder close-up camera. Conclusion Being James Bond in 007 First Light is a treat. Traveling around the world chasing conspiracies, using high-tech gadgets disguised as everyday accessories, and improvising on the spot to fool foes all give a fantastic feeling of being a super spy. For an origin story, IO Interactive has done a great job at introducing the character and his motives for doing what he does. The satisfying combat animation and fantastic voice acting are definitely high points, with the License to Kill moments being my favorite. Not being able to move bodies and the simplistic stealth of mechanics does hurt its presentation a little. The NPC logic and intelligence is easy to manipulate and trick, repeating the same actions over and over again if I keep making distractions. The lack of an FOV slider was also a pain (quite literally) at times, and the FSR implementation is quite poor. These are things I hope the studio will improve upon with updates. Even with its faults, IO Interactive and James Bond are a match made in heaven. The studio knows how to make a main character that oozes charm and competency while also leaning heavily into its Hitman experience to make gigantic levels with what looks like hundreds of NPCs roaming around. Being an origin story, IO’s Bond has a way to go before he becomes the highly effective agent we see in the movie world. I am hoping the studio will continue this series alongside its Hitman ventures going forward, just so we get to experience the journey for longer. 007 First Light is available on PC (Steam, Epic Games Store, and Xbox PC), Xbox Series X|S, and PlayStation 5 for $69.99. This review was conducted on the PC version of the game provided by IO Interactive.
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