Man shot and killed caring airsoft rifle

[Noir Angel]

Last time I checked a semi automatic pistol couldn't empty a 30 shot chamber in 4 seconds. A pistol is still a pistol, and an SMG is still an SMG regardless of how many shots their chambers hold. And walking around the streets with an SMG is absolutely insane.

[Charisma Veteran]

And walking around the streets with an SMG is absolutely insane.

Unless you're this chick:

[Noir Angel]

Does she pretend it's necessary for self defence? :p

[Ryoken]

Does she pretend it's necessary for self defence? :p

Well when I play her Character, it seems to be required for survival :p

[Noir Angel]

She's a game character so i'll let her off ;)

[RichardK]

Basically. It doesn't seem to be the cops fault.

By confronting the person in the first place, the cops instigated the confrontation. They should have observed out of site and tried not to confront the person.

This happens way too often. Someone calls the cops and says someone has a gun. 9 times out of 10 that person is not actually going to use it, but when confronted by cops yelling at them, the cops are the ones instigating it. It most cases, if the cops were never there, the person with the gun would have just gotten bored and put it away.

Cop points a gun at me, I have the same right to defend myself as the cop does. Cops are in the wrong way too often, busting into the wrong house more times than you think.

People give cops way too much credit, especially in this thread. They are way too anxious to get a kill shot.

[Noir Angel]

Amen! There are far too many "god complex" cops these days.

[DocM]

Last time I checked a semi automatic pistol couldn't empty a 30 shot chamber in 4 seconds. A pistol is still a pistol, and an SMG is still an SMG....

1) my friends Uzi pistol is a semi-auto, not an SMG. I stated this upthread.

2) even so, with the proper ATF papers filled out, $200 tax and background check an SMG would still be legal under Federal law - though each state can still regulate this.

[Noir Angel]

I wasn't disputing that it wasn't legal I just said that I think it's absolutely insane. But given how nutty America is for gun violence it probably shouldn't shock me as much as it does.

[ncoday]

By confronting the person in the first place, the cops instigated the confrontation. They should have observed out of site and tried not to confront the person.

This happens way too often. Someone calls the cops and says someone has a gun. 9 times out of 10 that person is not actually going to use it, but when confronted by cops yelling at them, the cops are the ones instigating it. It most cases, if the cops were never there, the person with the gun would have just gotten bored and put it away.

Cop points a gun at me, I have the same right to defend myself as the cop does. Cops are in the wrong way too often, busting into the wrong house more times than you think.

People give cops way too much credit, especially in this thread. They are way too anxious to get a kill shot.

Seriously, you're saying I should be able to go down and rob a bank and because I might use the gun in a naughty way, the police should just hang back and give me a good chance at getting away?? LOL

Or what about if the cops just hung back and the POS kills some innocent bystander down the road?

You schmucks would then be whining "how come the cops didn't stop the luncatic with the gun?"

[Noir Angel]

No, what they're saying is that the police shouldn't go in guns blazing in situations where it's not merited. I know this is a thought foreign to most gun nuts but people dying is bad.

[DocM]

Perps etc. dying is never the preferred outcome, but sometimes it is the only option. In this case there was no way to tell if the guy's weapon was real or not other than a voice on the phone. Also, spoofing is common - painting over or removing the red tip, or painting one on a real weapon - so that's iffy. In the end the cops want to finish their shift without getting killed themselves, so presented with a deranged person that appears armed....

Another scenario: thug points his (illegal) weapon at a young teller/clerk/whatever, then a person with a carry permit puts one through his brain stem. Problem solved.

[ncoday]

No, what they're saying is that the police shouldn't go in guns blazing in situations where it's not merited. I know this is a thought foreign to most gun nuts but people dying is bad.

The cops didn't go "guns blazing". Its not just cops who would've fired, even private citizens. You point something at me that looks VERY much like a real gun, I am going to shoot. Last time I checked, we humans have not developed the ability to read minds and know for 100% certain that it is not a real gun.

I am not immortal like Duncan McLeod on Highlander, I cannot take the chance it is a real gun or not. If it looks like it, I am going to defend myself.

[Noir Angel]

A third scenario: People have sensible attitudes towards lethal weapons, don't live like a bunch of yahoos with bloodlust, and make it harder for the criminal to get said weapon. Nobody dies. And to be honest DocM your attitude is telling anyway. You don't see the idea of killing a person in self defence as an unfortunate necessity, you seem to actually revel in the violence. From my experiences with American gun culture the only difference between a sensible and non sensible gun owners is the corpse count, "sensible" gun owners still seem to take delight in the violence of taking someone's life.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

Seriously, you're saying I should be able to go down and rob a bank and because I might use the gun in a naughty way, the police should just hang back and give me a good chance at getting away?? LOL

Or what about if the cops just hung back and the POS kills some innocent bystander down the road?

You schmucks would then be whining "how come the cops didn't stop the luncatic with the gun?"

it's called reading the situation ....

[yekGLzhQ4Qju1FtAVcC4]

Miller pointed the pellet gun at police and was shot by officers.

life protip: Do not point your gun (real or fake) at another armed person

[DocM]

A third scenario: People have sensible attitudes towards lethal weapons, don't live like a bunch of yahoos with bloodlust, and make it harder for the criminal to get said weapon. Nobody dies.

You assume that criminals get most of their weapons legally. They don't - gunrunning from overseas is alive & well in the US, and if you can't do that it's easy to make a SMG from metal stock found in most hardware stores.

As for the criminals - if they don't threaten or attack people, no one dies. And if someone is going to die, which is often their intent, better them than their victim(s.)

And to be honest DocM your attitude is telling anyway. You don't see the idea of killing a person in self defence as an unfortunate necessity, you seem to actually revel in the violence.

I don't revel in it, that's your mental invention, but I do see it as a necessary consequence of the actions of others. I most certainly won't shed tears over them, though I would feel bad for their relatives. That I don't have a "bloodlust" is that I've only had to fire on someone once in over 45 years, and that was to save my fathers life. The rest of the time I've made citizens arrests - something else that probably grinds you as being possible.

From my experiences with American gun culture the only difference between a sensible and non sensible gun owners is the corpse count, "sensible" gun owners still seem to take delight in the violence of taking someone's life.

That you can't tell the difference says more about your inflexibilty than about us.

[Noir Angel]

Your attitude portrays a very different story to what you're saying here, I've seen you talk without a great deal of glee about the damage your guns could do to a human body, sensible people don't do things like that. To a normal person, killing in self defence would be something that's viewed as unfortunate but unnecessary. You enjoy the thought of the amount of damage your guns could do so, and those simply aren't the words of a sensible person.

[DocM]

I have often tried to explain wound and firearms ballistics, combat tactics, US gun laws, etc. in terms people can understand. Often this is to explain current events, discount FUD, or correct misconceptions. If I add a tad of irony or even humor to lighten the subject and you don't like it too bad. Sue me. You don't like Americans or how we live? Fine, just don't expect anyone to take your apparent trolling seriously anymore.

[andrewbares]

Your attitude portrays a very different story to what you're saying here, I've seen you talk without a great deal of glee about the damage your guns could do to a human body, sensible people don't do things like that. To a normal person, killing in self defence would be something that's viewed as unfortunate but unnecessary. You enjoy the thought of the amount of damage your guns could do so, and those simply aren't the words of a sensible person.

So how is that any different than a guy who likes to talk about how his motorcycle can go 170 mph?? That's illegal everywhere in the US except on a track.

People like to talk about stats. They brag about the power their computer has, the power their cars have, and the power their gun has. It's not that difficult to understand. His hobby is guns, your hobby may be computers or cars or boats. Live with it.

[trag3dy]

By confronting the person in the first place, the cops instigated the confrontation. They should have observed out of site and tried not to confront the person.

This happens way too often. Someone calls the cops and says someone has a gun. 9 times out of 10 that person is not actually going to use it, but when confronted by cops yelling at them, the cops are the ones instigating it. It most cases, if the cops were never there, the person with the gun would have just gotten bored and put it away.

Cop points a gun at me, I have the same right to defend myself as the cop does. Cops are in the wrong way too often, busting into the wrong house more times than you think.

People give cops way too much credit, especially in this thread. They are way too anxious to get a kill shot.

Amen! There are far too many "god complex" cops these days.

So who is to blame then if that person runs in to a nearby home and kills 2 or 3 people because the police are "observing from out of site" and couldn't react in time?

That doesn't even begin to make sense. Remember the person they were dealing with is mentally unstable so they already would not be reacting as normal person would to police presence.

[Ryoken]

If you are walking down a street with a gun, then you have already taken the first act.

You can't ask police to just sit back and wait for him to open fire. Once the police showed up, you have the option to drop the gun, hands on your head, etc. If you don't then police only option is to think that you are able and willing to use it, as such they have to render you inert. If they don't, and you open fire, and hit innocents, then the police are at fault.

I'm sorry the guy is dead, but he is the fraction of a percent that lives outside of the norm. The police need to operate by doing what is usually the best course of action, for most situations. Sometimes you meet someone outside of that, mentally disabled, idiots who pull out stuff from their pockets when the police tell them to freeze, etc.. But Most of the time the ones that aren't a thread surrender the second the police show up, and the ones that don't are a danger to everyone around.

Also, it's all nice that we can talk about it now, but when it happened, it happened in a fraction of a second.. I best most of the most liberal people would, in the same situation, seeing a man with what looks like a real gun starting to aim it your way, not decide to just wait and see what happens.

[Noir Angel]

So how is that any different than a guy who likes to talk about how his motorcycle can go 170 mph?? That's illegal everywhere in the US except on a track.

People like to talk about stats. They brag about the power their computer has, the power their cars have, and the power their gun has. It's not that difficult to understand. His hobby is guns, your hobby may be computers or cars or boats. Live with it.

Those people don't take pride in their ability to kill.

[SupportGeek]

Those people don't take pride in their ability to kill.

Neither does he, he merely talks about stats like anyone else with a hobby, everything else is simply your projection on him.

I particularly like where you project "glee" into his posts, how one can garner that from him talking about statistical analyses is beyond me, you must have some superhuman ability to read emotion from text that no one else on the planet has.

[DocM]

I don't get him either, other than he's so rabidly anti-gun carry that he internally demonizes those who aren't.

My discussion of why wounding or warning shots are problematic, and even dangerous to others than the perp, is a good example. That knowledge comes from training, discussions with others who have 'been there' and experience with patients who were hit by supposed warning shots and attempts to wound. How he can get 'glee' out of that I don't know. Being up to your elbows in blood from one of those incidents is anything but gleeful.

As for perps - I have no sympathy for them because they are the victims of their own actions. That they ran head-on into someone who was prepared to defend themselves is their problem.