Man shot and killed caring airsoft rifle

[Ryoken]

Sorry, you aim something, anything, at an officer that looks like a weapon, and I can't blame them for shooting first..

The red tip isn't always there, and there have been cases where real guns had been painted at the end to look like the toys..

You can't take some family members word on it.. If they didn't shoot him, and it was a real gun and he shot them, or some innocent, people would be rightfully asking why they didn't shoot the man brandishing a weapon.

Fact is, you point anything that looks like a weapon at anyone, self defense takes over. Be you a normal person, or a cop.

[Gone]

So suicide by cop?

[DocM]

they could of used a take down shot.....

Any tactical shooting instructor will tell you that's a stupid move.

First, a leg shot has only about a 10% likelihood of impacting, meaning a 90% chance of flying off and hitting a business, home, bystander etc. etc. A lot of modern cartridges would also go clean throgh and continue with a sh*tload of residual energy, presenting the same risk.

Second, even if you do put them on the ground their arms & hands still work - so they're still a threat.

Third, modern ammo will kill you dead as Caesar even if you hit the pelvis or abdomen. The resulting peak pressure wave gets into the circulatory system and can blow out blood vessels in the brain. More so the chest, heart or head (which it would basically remove.)

As my instructor said ad nauseum (a very senior cop): "if you're going to shoot, shoot to kill. Period."

[Original Poster]

Any tactical shooting instructor will tell you that's a stupid move.

First, a leg shot has only about a 10% likelihood of impacting, meaning a 90% chance of flying off and hitting a business, home, bystander etc. etc. A lot of modern cartridges would also go clean throgh and continue with a sh*tload of residual energy, presenting the same risk.

Second, even if you do put them on the ground their arms & hands still work - so they're still a threat.

Third, modern ammo will kill you dead as Caesar even if you hit the pelvis or abdomen. The resulting peak pressure wave gets into the circulatory system and can blow out blood vessels in the brain. More so the chest, heart or head (which it would basically remove.)

As my instructor said ad nauseum (a very senior cop): "if you're going to shoot, shoot to kill. Period."

then they shouldnt of shot ... either way they had prior warning I understand what you say if they did not have prior warning then shoot to kill but they did which means they had sometime to prepare, tear gas? smokes? flash? water cannon ? they had so many options and they went with a bullet? I dont care the person died I really couldn't give a crap its not my problem but I do care that the police think they can get away with everything and do what they want, they had a tactical advantage...

[DocM]

Prior warnings are hardly 100% accurate, so they have to judge what happens on the ground - not the phone. There can be dispatch errors etc. etc. etc. Bottom line: point anything that looks like a firearm at a cop, or a carrying citizen for that matter, and Darwin will judge you harshly.

[Hell-In-A-Handbasket]

Here is an Example of the red tip dont mean Squat

http://blog.riflegear.com/archive/2007/12/26/hello-kitty-ar-15---evil-black-rifle-meets-cute-and.aspx

[Growled Member]

So suicide by cop?

Basically. It doesn't seem to be the cops fault.

[Rippleman]

i don't know, that red tip on the end of an airsoft gun is usually a pretty big give away to me

In Canada pellet guns do not have ther red tip. They look just like the real thing. I think the states is the same? I am guessing your are confusing an air gun with a toy gun?

[Brandon H Supervisor]

In Canada pellet guns do not have ther red tip. They look just like the real thing. I think the states is the same? I am guessing your are confusing an air gun with a toy gun?

nope, they are required to have the red/orange tip here im the states

[DocM]

Airsoft (6mm plastic pellet) and toy guns require a red tip because while looking real they are harmless - though as noted spoofing happens a lot.

.177" BB (steel ball bearing) and .177" or larger lead pellet / dart guns do not have a red tip because they most definitely are dangerous - especially if powered by compressed air or a gas cartridge. I have a gas .22 pellet rifle that can easily blow through a car door.

[Rippleman]

oh, i was mistakenly thinking the AIR-SOFT brand for real pellet guns. I used to have a variety of pellet guns growing up and the pointy tip .22 caliber air pump that was amazing. The smaller .177 caliber up here are usually air powered with those disposable gas cartridges. hence the reason why i thought it was weird that you had red tipped ends. my mistake.

[SupportGeek]

There is 0 reason for a civilian to own/carry an assault rifle. Even if they're only semi auto.

Those are not "Assault Rifles"

An Assault rifle is a select fire weapon, with full auto capabilities, Civvies generally have no way to own those without special permits and tax stamps etc.

Those are simply modern day rifles, an evolution of long gun technology, just as things evolved from flintlock, to percussion caps, and long heavy unwieldy wooden rifles to lighter and lighter rifles using more modern manufacturing and materials.

There are also plenty of reasons people own and carry them, Hunting, sporting, competition, self defense, and not the least of which, because its a right guaranteed them in the constitution, in otherwords "because they can"

I see no reason a law abiding citizen cant own and carry any firearm he/she chooses. Law abiding enthusiasts are NOT the people you need to worry about owning or carrying weaponry of any kind.

[SupportGeek]

they could of used a take down shot.... they didnt have to shot to kill, shoot to disable... they could of shot his hand, leg, arm.. if he was REALLY considered a threat and had prior warning a sniper would of been involved.

Im going to guess you have never been shooting and most of your firearms knowledge comes from Hollywood.

Hand, leg, arm aimed shots are difficult with a handgun at moderate ranges on a target thats standing still, let alone a person moving around.

Most police departments I know have a policy in place, if a firearm is pointed at another officer, they must take immediate action to remove the threat, this means lethal force is to be employed.

Trying to shoot the bad guys gun out of his hand is the stuff of movies and TV, and based on the difficulty of that kind of shot, missing means your brother in arms just died, or worse, multiple have been shot/wounded, same goes for shooting a leg, if he is already pointing that firearm at your buddy, he can still get that shot off if all you do is wound him, you MUST incapacitate. Thus there really is only one sure way to stop the threat.

[majortom1981]

nope, they are required to have the red/orange tip here im the states

The red tip is only required for sale. The law states once the gun is bought the person is legally allowed to remove the red tip.

[Biotoxic_hazard_835]

So let me get this straight. Some people in here are implying Police should go into the scene of a mentally unstable person armed with an "alleged" airsoft gun which is described as a rifle which by definition has a longer range, trusting just a stranger's voice on the phone saying it's not a real gun and going against all training that direct to treat any gun as if it is loaded, real and an imminent threat to them and other citizens ? Furthermore, this person does not obey commands to drop the weapon when instructed to and even go as far as pointing the gun at officers and even so you people want officers to just stand there and ask the guy, " Hey mister is that a real gun or just a toy ? Are you planing to shoot us or just being a jerk ?". What if this was just a set up to ambush Police and the airsoft story just a ruse to have them lower their guard ? What if the gun was real and this moron went on shooting anyone on sight ? What if this guy goes in the middle of traffic pointing his "toy" at drivers and causes a collision and innocent people die ? I am sure that you will be the first to attack Police for doing nothing to stop the guy and neutralize him before he could cause damage. It is easy for people to criticize without being at the scene.

[Ryoken]

All the alternatives would put lives at risk if it was a real gun. It's that simple, and that's why the cops shoot first.

They aren't there to play the odds.. or take the word of a voice on the phone. You shoot him, it's done, over, one person hurt.. You don't, maybe no one gets hurt, maybe several.. Not worth the risk..

Not to mention, I saw nothing in the post about what was said on site.. for all we know they did try to talk him down, and for all we know he was making threats..

As it stands, all we have is one side of the story, and even with that one side, I still vote with the Police..

[+Warwagon MVC]

[DocM]

... every kill I have gotten on a tiny rabbit has been a head shot par one which was through the rib cage.... I am also a farmer by trade so YES i think I know about guns.. I admit I am not the best shot in the world but shooting someone in a non-lethal place is not impossible and its not impossible to try...

You may know some about guns, but you don't know Jack about combat tactics. I learned combat tactics from pros; an uncle who was a WW-2 UDT (now SEALs), relatives who were cops, and a Chief of Police who was my license instructor, and this is balderdash because a peripherally wounded perp still in posession of his weapon is still a mortal threat - even if he's grounded. Also, rabbits don't shoot back, perps do. Different games entirely.

[Ryoken]

Cops are trained to shoot to kill. Normally 3 shots Center Mass [ chest ]..

Even hunters, who are great shots, would have trouble.. This isn't a rodent, or deer that you can take your time and line up on.. If you feel there's even a chance he's armed, you want to be exposed for as little time as you can, that means shooting quickly, and at the easiest area to target, the chest - Center Mass. Add to that the adrenalin of the situation and making a skilled shot is even harder.. It's just not worth the risk most of the time, and that's how the police are supposed to operate, react in a way that provides the best outcome most of the time, with the fewest risks.. Better one dead for a reason like this, than several dead because it was a real gun and the officers didn't take the threat seriously because of whatever reason.

Now SWAT, and snipers who have more time can sometimes go for the skilled shot.. But normal police, no.. Even if they DID go for it, they would be chewed out for not following protocol and as such potentially risking other lives.

I'm willing to bet most of us spent more time thinking of how to respond to the article, than the cops had to react to him.

[DocM]

I've been in that position and believe me, it was the longest 3 seconds of my life.

[FloatingFatMan]

I don't like guns, I never will like guns, I think carrying them is kinda silly.

I also think the cops did the only thing they could do. They didn't know it was a toy for sure. Man with gun = immediate threat. Shooting to kill is necessary.

Police in the UK don't generally carry guns, but we do have armed response units. They almost certainly would have shot, too.

IMO, this is a case of suicide by cop.

[Dick Montage]

I believed that the police forces in the US are trained to assume any gun is real. Most certainly the law here in the UK now states that brandishing a replica firearm carries the same penalties as a real one.

Don't point a gun at the cops, don't get shot. It's pretty damned simple!

Yes there are clauses here... He had problems. And that's sad, but it doesn't place the blame at the police's doorstep. It places it at:

1) Whoever sold him the gun

2) Whoever is responsible for his wellbeing - and if that is himself, then fair play

[Original Poster]

You may know some about guns, but you don't know Jack about combat tactics. I learned combat tactics from pros; an uncle who was a WW-2 UDT (now SEALs), relatives who were cops, and a Chief of Police who was my license instructor, and this is balderdash because a peripherally wounded perp still in posession of his weapon is still a mortal threat - even if he's grounded. Also, rabbits don't shoot back, perps do. Different games entirely.

and I do understand what you are saying he is a threat even if he is laying down cause the gun is within range ect ect thought you obviously know more about tactics then me I am not a fool with them either my family has a deep military background and none died in battle (some wounded) and i DO KNOW that some times it is vital for the team to catch armed suspects ALIVE so why couldn't this kind of training be applied for general populous... once again do not get me wrong if it came down to it I would shoot to kill if I felt overly threatened as yours and your teams safety is priority, the only point im really trying to make is why did they not approach this differently ? they had warning that all im saying. on a side not im even considering joining the army as a specialist :3 once I get over my authority problem

[SupportGeek]

I believed that the police forces in the US are trained to assume any gun is real. Most certainly the law here in the UK now states that brandishing a replica firearm carries the same penalties as a real one.

Don't point a gun at the cops, don't get shot. It's pretty damned simple!

Yes there are clauses here... He had problems. And that's sad, but it doesn't place the blame at the police's doorstep. It places it at:

1) Whoever sold him the gun

2) Whoever is responsible for his wellbeing - and if that is himself, then fair play

I would agree that the person that sold him the gun was at fault if it were real and he was somehow a prohibited person, then yes, there is a significant liability there, since it was a pellet or bb gun, I dont know that there can easily be blame placed, you can buy them at walmart with no hoops to jump through generally.

I think the article gives us a little bit more insight than I first thought.

"Broomfield police received a 911 call around 7:20 a.m. June 28 about a "mentally distraught" man in the Aspen Creek subdivision. While officers were en route, they encountered Miller near the intersection of Aspen Street and Durango Avenue. Miller pointed the pellet gun at police and was shot by officers."

From the article, the call was that he was mentally distraught, and it looks like they had not been told about a possible firearm, fake or not, also its written to suggest the officers encountered him earlier than expected en route, and at that time pointed the gun at the police.

Also the way it is written, they had no time to prepare alternate means of incapacitating him as the subject escalated the threat level past the point of no return quite quickly after they made contact.

[majortom1981]

I would agree that the person that sold him the gun was at fault if it were real and he was somehow a prohibited person, then yes, there is a significant liability there, since it was a pellet or bb gun, I dont know that there can easily be blame placed, you can buy them at walmart with no hoops to jump through generally.

I think the article gives us a little bit more insight than I first thought.

"Broomfield police received a 911 call around 7:20 a.m. June 28 about a "mentally distraught" man in the Aspen Creek subdivision. While officers were en route, they encountered Miller near the intersection of Aspen Street and Durango Avenue. Miller pointed the pellet gun at police and was shot by officers."

From the article, the call was that he was mentally distraught, and it looks like they had not been told about a possible firearm, fake or not, also its written to suggest the officers encountered him earlier than expected en route, and at that time pointed the gun at the police.

Also the way it is written, they had no time to prepare alternate means of incapacitating him as the subject escalated the threat level past the point of no return quite quickly after they made contact.

Also I looked up the laws on airsoft guns in that city. You are allowed to have them on your own property BUT in that city its illegal to have them on you once you step foot off your property.