Man shot and killed caring airsoft rifle

[Noir Angel]

Except you sat there making excuses for a guy that walks around carrying an Uzi, the chances of causing collateral with an uzi are substantially higher than causing collateral with a warning shot. I don't like guns because regardless of the excuses you people make, the stats tell me that America has a serious problem with gun crime. I have compassion for other people, and I find it hard to take joy in harming someone regardless of the provocation. Even if I had to kill someone in self defence, I'm not barbaric enough to take pleasure in it. I've also noted that in pretty much every incident of gun homicide posted on this form you always take the side of the person with the gun.

The US has a problem with gun crime, and US culture does glorify violence. You can call it trolling if it makes you feel better, I call it a reflection of reality.

[ShareShiz]

1. was it an airsoft gun (as in plastic bb's) or was it a pellet gun (as in metal bb's or metal pellets) ?

2. was the tip of the gun orange or black ?

3. why did the officer use a real gun, taser would have worked fine.

I hate hearing stories like this. cops are so dumb.

[DocM]

Except you sat there making excuses for a guy that walks around carrying an Uzi....

No excuses were necessary - it's legal in this state, which is what I tried to explain, and the weapon is not nearly as powerful as more traditional handguns such as my SIG P250 .40 carry piece. Extended (high-capacity) mags are also a non-issue as you can get them for most any handgun. Your argument is style vs. my substance.

[ANON86364]

1. was it an airsoft gun (as in plastic bb's) or was it a pellet gun (as in metal bb's or metal pellets) ?

2. was the tip of the gun orange or black ?

3. why did the officer use a real gun, taser would have worked fine.

I hate hearing stories like this. cops are so dumb.

So you have questions of what transpired but somehow know enough to, with certainty, say "cops are [so] dumb"? Is it the cops that are dumb or the ones who fabricate a reality from nothing?

[Noir Angel]

No excuses were necessary - it's legal in this state, which is what I tried to explain, and the weapon is not nearly as powerful as more traditional handguns such as my SIG P250 .40 carry piece. Extended (high-capacity) mags are also a non-issue as you can get them for most any handgun. Your argument is style vs. my substance.

So you're incapable for thinking for itself, you think that just because it's legal there's absolutely no question that it's right? Your handgun may be more powerful, but it's also far more precise than an SMG / semi auto, they are by design meant to spray bullets around.

[andrewbares]

I have compassion for other people, and I find it hard to take joy in harming someone regardless of the provocation.

When did Doc ever say that he takes "joy" in killing people????? He said that he would be indifferent about killing someone who was trying to kill him, not that he would be happy about it.

Banning guns is NOT the solution to gun violence. Canada allows guns and their gun violence rate is lower than ours from what I understand. And we're not going to go into another argument about how to fix violence. You're going way off topic.

[ShareShiz]

So you have questions of what transpired but somehow know enough to, with certainty, say "cops are [so] dumb"? Is it the cops that are dumb or the ones who fabricate a reality from nothing?

Real Gun vs. Real Gun ... ok

AirSoft Gun / BB Gun vs. Real Gun ... uhh wtf.

cops are dumb.

kthxbye

[Noir Angel]

When did Doc ever say that he takes "joy" in killing people????? He said that he would be indifferent about killing someone who was trying to kill him, not that he would be happy about it.

Banning guns is NOT the solution to gun violence. Canada allows guns and their gun violence rate is lower than ours from what I understand. And we're not going to go into another argument about how to fix violence. You're going way off topic.

It's just the way that he comes across when he posts. Sensible people don't talk about putting shots through people's brain stems as if it's a righteous thing to do.

[andrewbares]

So you're incapable for thinking for itself, you think that just because it's legal there's absolutely no question that it's right? Your handgun may be more powerful, but it's also far more precise than an SMG / semi auto, they are by design meant to spray bullets around.

It's legal because people as a MAJORITY decided that it is legal. Doc would be part of that majority that supported it.

Do you think obamacare is "right"? Do you think going to war with Iraq was "right"? Well here's a surprise for you, some people think it is and some people think it isn't. People have OPINIONS, and you shouldn't go shoving yours down other's throats, just like you shouldn't go shoving your dick down other's throats! Doc is perfectly capable of thinking for himself.

[andrewbares]

Real Gun vs. Real Gun ... ok

AirSoft Gun / BB Gun vs. Real Gun ... uhh wtf.

cops are dumb.

kthxbye

Uhmmm there was NO WAY of knowing it was a fake gun. You need to read through the thread before you reply.

[ANON86364]

Except you sat there making excuses for a guy that walks around carrying an Uzi, the chances of causing collateral with an uzi are substantially higher than causing collateral with a warning shot. I don't like guns because regardless of the excuses you people make, the stats tell me that America has a serious problem with gun crime. I have compassion for other people, and I find it hard to take joy in harming someone regardless of the provocation. Even if I had to kill someone in self defence, I'm not barbaric enough to take pleasure in it. I've also noted that in pretty much every incident of gun homicide posted on this form you always take the side of the person with the gun.

The US has a problem with gun crime, and US culture does glorify violence. You can call it trolling if it makes you feel better, I call it a reflection of reality.

I don't think you understand that you aren't entitled to correctness. You have concerns of the validity of an Uzi, and there are valid reasons why it is no more invalid than a traditional handgun. What happens then, is you either rebut with additional facts or concerns or you concede. Same applies with any debate. If you have a concern about someone's ulterior motives (joy in killing), you can certainly voice that and hope to shed light on the morality of the person, but without facts (history) to prove your point, you're not furthering the conversation. By knowing this and still choosing to stagnate the conversation on opinion, you admit to the very definition of trolling.

Real Gun vs. Real Gun ... ok

AirSoft Gun / BB Gun vs. Real Gun ... uhh wtf.

cops are dumb.

kthxbye

Thanks for bringing the conversation back to page one.

[Noir Angel]

He's expressing his opinion, I'm expressing mine. I'm not going to shut up because you don't like what I have to say.

I don't think you understand that you aren't entitled to correctness. You have concerns of the validity of an Uzi, and there are valid reasons why it is no more invalid than a traditional handgun. What happens then, is you either rebut with additional facts or concerns or you concede. Same applies with any debate. If you have a concern about someone's ulterior motives (joy in killing), you can certainly voice that and hope to shed light on the morality of the person, but without facts (history) to prove your point, you're not furthering the conversation. By knowing this and still choosing to stagnate the conversation on opinion, you admit to the very definition of trolling.

No, I just don't trust him, and have questions about his true motivation.

[andrewbares]

It's just the way that he comes across when he posts. Sensible people don't talk about putting shots through people's brain stems as if it's a righteous thing to do.

No, you don't talk about that, but others do. You need to realize that people are different. Not everyone is exactly like you. If a situation calls for it, I'm going to put my life ahead of the life of someone who was doing something illegal, and that's that. You can go let him kill you for all I care. People are different.

[DocM]

1. was it an airsoft gun (as in plastic bb's) or was it a pellet gun (as in metal bb's or metal pellets) ?

6mm Airsoft plastic pellet, but you can't tell that from a distance because the hole is similar in size to real calibers like the 5.56mm NATO.

2. was the tip of the gun orange or black ?

Doesn't matter. Cops are used to seeing real guns that have a red tip painted on in order for baddies to get a tactical advantage. Happens a lot more than you'd think.

3. why did the officer use a real gun, taser would have worked fine.

Tasers are a very short range weapon, and they don't work well through thick clothing. They are also not effective on some people, so the cops didn't take the chance when presented with what could have been a firearm.

I hate hearing stories like this. cops are so dumb.

Unsupported.

[Noir Angel]

No, you don't talk about that, but others do. You need to realize that people are different. Not everyone is exactly like you. If a situation calls for it, I'm going to put my life ahead of the life of someone who was doing something illegal, and that's that. You can go let him kill you for all I care. People are different.

Sure they are. I'm different because I dislike gun violence. So why should he be entitled to have his opinion, but I have to shut up about mine just because you don't like what I have to say?

[DocM]

It's just the way that he comes across when he posts. Sensible people don't talk about putting shots through people's brain stems as if it's a righteous thing to do.

My example was a citizen taking out a baddie with a gun on another person. The brain stem shot is specific to this situation and a standard SWAT and sniper technique.

The rationale is that such a shot cuts off all neurosignalling to the upper extremities and hands so a spasm doesn't discharge his weapon when he's hit. This prevents a collateral wounding of his victim.

Combat tactics, not glamorization, and one I learned both in my anatomy and physiology courses. It was reinforced in my Advanced Level (and State approved) carry classes.

[andrewbares]

Sure they are. I'm different because I dislike gun violence. So why should he be entitled to have his opinion, but I have to shut up about mine just because you don't like what I have to say?

Your first contribution to this thread was:

Different circumstances, same old gun nuts. Bloodlust, vengeance, and death.

That's basically coming here and trolling the thread. There was no "vengeance" or "bloodlust" in this article.

[Noir Angel]

My example was a citizen taking out a baddie with a gun on another person. The brain stem shot is specific to this situation and a standard SWAT and sniper technique.

The rationale is that such a shot cuts off all neurosignalling to the upper extremities and hands so a spasm doesn't discharge his weapon when he's hit. This prevents a collateral wounding of his victim.

Combat tactics.

Fair enough, that does actually make sense.

[DocM]

more

....Your handgun may be more powerful, but it's also far more precise than an SMG / semi auto, they are by design meant to spray bullets around.

FYI his Uzi pistol has a longer barrel than my SIG and similar rifling, and it has a longer sight line (distance from front to rear sight) so it's a lot more accurate than you think. My SIG is a semi-auto as well, and it can easily put 10 bullets in a 2" circle at 20 meters - the limiting factor being the shooter. The average engagement distance is 5-7 meters, so both are more than accurate enough.

[Noir Angel]

Isn't it hard to keep them steady due to the kick if you're repeat firing though?

[DocM]

Isn't it hard to keep them steady due to the kick if you're repeat firing though?

No more than most 9mm full sized pistols, and perhaps less because it's heavier and inertia is a big factor in recoil. A smaller weapon is generally harder to keep sighted due to their smaller mass, but some are designed to not have as much barrel flip. Count my SIG in that list.

Handy given that the .40 Federal HST cartridge I shoot is quite snappy - it's designed for short barrels (DHS ordered them for their HK P2000sk's) so the chamber pressure is very high (over 36,00 PSI) so the bullet can accelerate to 1,250+ fps in just 3.6" (91.4 mm). In the wrong gun those things can make a barrel flip like pancakes.

[Noir Angel]

Makes sense then, fair enough. I personally feel I'd be a bit more accurate with a pistol but I accept the science of your point there.

[SupportGeek]

Except you sat there making excuses for a guy that walks around carrying an Uzi

Except, you know, he wasn't making excuses, he was telling you its completely legal. You continually ignore the fact that the UZI is semi auto only, In other-words, its the same functionally as a 9mm pistol, one trigger press = one round, no more potent at all.

the chances of causing collateral with an uzi are substantially higher than causing collateral with a warning shot.

When using a firearm for self defense, or to save the life of another, you dont fire "warning shots" that gets people hurt or killed with stray rounds that you have no idea where they will end up, its also illegal in most places to shoot like that. When resorting to a firearm, its the last choice, but you must shoot to stop the threat. Note, I did not say "kill" if (god forbid) on the off chance I must fight for my life or the life of another with the use of a firearm and my first shot does not kill the BG, but they stop threatening or harming, I stop firing. Its that simple. If they keep coming, one must shoot to stop the threat.

I don't like guns because regardless of the excuses you people make.

We arent posting excuses, we are posting facts, but you can call it whatever you want to justify your position if it helps you continue feeling holier-than-thou

I personally dont care if you dont like guns, thats your choice, but call a spade a spade, the problem isn't that guns run around killing people, its that criminals run around killing people, with anything they can get their hands on, knives, poison, rocks, sticks, yes even guns.

the stats tell me that America has a serious problem with gun crime.

Ive seen stats too, they can and often are spun any way the media wants to support their position.

You realize that most gun violence statistics also include suicides? Which make up about 3/4 of those statistics.

I have compassion for other people

So do I, and Id bet DocM does too, your feelings aren't special

and I find it hard to take joy in harming someone regardless of the provocation. Even if I had to kill someone in self defence, I'm not barbaric enough to take pleasure in it.

I dont WANT to hurt someone, but I will have no hesitation putting down someone posing a dire threat to me or my family. I will not take pleasure in killing that person if it was to turn out that way, but I will take satisfaction and solace in my family being safe. No responsible firearms owner relishes killing someone, ever. That attitude is reserved for gang bangers, and British thugs that swarm beat random strangers to death for fun.

US culture does glorify violence.

This is about the only thing we can come close to agreeing on, Hollywood glorifies violence, the news media displays it gratuitously in the name of "ratings" I cant say the rest of the culture is there with it 100% of the time though.

You can call it trolling if it makes you feel better.

Good, I prefer to call a spade a spade, the way you selectively forget and ignore things you have been told, you practically worship the popular anti-gun talking points without questioning any of them at all, and try to project emotion into other peoples posts (glee, bloodlust, joy) in order to villify them, you are a troll, or just incredibly naive about the way the world works.

[Noir Angel]

The US has a rate of gun homicides 40x higher than the UK. If you think that's because of suicides you must be incredibly deluded.

[Tarvis123]

The US has a rate of gun homicides 40x higher than the UK. If you think that's because of suicides you must be incredibly deluded.

Ok and?

You are over twice more likely to be a victim of a knife crime in the UK than you are to be a victim of a gun crime in the US. Who cares what weapon they choose to use? A weapon is a weapon, and I would rather neither be inside me. Also saying gun crimes are more prevalent in a country that doesn't restrict it as much as the comparison is kind of a no-brainer. It's like saying Canada has more frostbite deaths than Egypt.

That said, my father owns quite a few guns which I will acquire down the road. But don't get me wrong, I'm not like some of the others here that think guns are the best thing in the world as I have no actual interest in guns at all. Nor do I like the idea of civilians around me carrying a weapon when I'm in the city or where ever. I just don't trust the average joe to not hit me with a stray bullet when he tries to be a hero. It's one thing to be good at shooting a target, it's a whole different ballgame when the target can shoot back.