Man shot and killed caring airsoft rifle

[DocM]

The fact is that he's pretty much correct, but the percentage of suicides in the gun homicide rate stats isn't 70% but closer to 60%.

Also, the overall homicide rates show that while fewer in the UK use firearms to murder they are simply killing each other by other means;

US: 4.8 / 100,000

UK: 1.23 / 100,000

so, overall the US is murdering at a rate 3.9x the UK, not 40x.

Now consider that the FBI stats show that of the US murders 67% are by gang bangers on gang bangers; inner city gangs, MS-13, the border drug problem etc. I don't think the UK has anything like the US gang problem so let's ignore them - Darwin is handling them well enough, and their firearms are obtained by extra-legal means.

With just 33% of US murders being by 'regular people' that changes the picture to this -

US: 1.58 / 100,000

UK: 1.23 / 100,000

Hmmmmmm.....

[Noir Angel]

In the UK in 2010 there were 29259 incidences of knife related crime. Working from a rounded population figure of 58 million, that equates to about 50 people per 100,000 being victims of knife crime in the UK.

In the US in 2008 there were 436,000 crimes committed in which the perpetrator visibly used a gun during the commission of the crime. Working from a rounded population figure of 312 million that works out at around 140 per 100,000.

Stats therefore indicate that you are about 2.5x more likely to be involved in a gun related crime in the US than you are a knife related crime in the UK.

Source 1

Source 2

And there's one other large difference. Our government don't actively encourage people to carry knives on the street, in fact they try to prevent it.

so, overall the US is murdering at a rate 3.9x the UK, not 40x.

How ironic given how you complained about me misrepresenting you. I clearly stated that the US has a rate of gun murder 40x higher than that in the UK, I never once said that their overall murder rate was 40x higher. The US also has a higher rate of rape.

[DocM]

^{You limited your murder stats to a subset that supported your argument, and I expanded that set to show the broader picture which shows that UK'ers are using other means than firearms to murder at a much smaller differential rate. Removing a factor not common to both sides, gang banger on gang banger murders, reveals quite similar underlying rates.}

[Noir Angel]

No, I used the relevant stats to point to the fact that the availability of guns seriously accelerated their usage in crime, my usage is irrelevant. You claimed that I said that the murder rate in the US was 40x that in UK when I CLEARLY said that the murder rate WITH FIREARMS was 40x higher. I think you're vindicating my assertions about your personality, as you evidently have no problem with being dishonest to try to make me look like an ass. And 3.5x higher isn't a small difference, it's still a rather large difference. Enough to vindicate my assertion about the violent nature of US society.

[SupportGeek]

The US has a rate of gun homicides 40x higher than the UK. If you think that's because of suicides you must be incredibly deluded.

That number is absolutely inflated by suicides, its been done that way for a long time to push anti 2a propaganda.

Even still, you realize that in the UK you are just about 2x as likely to be the victim of a violent crime than in the US? This is despite a near total ban on private firearm ownership, and living on an island where you don't have neighbors to bring illegal firearms in as easily.

I'll take being able to own firearms and not being a victim for $100 please Alex.

[Noir Angel]

No, you're not. Try actually reading what I posted above. The only form of violent crime that is higher in the UK than the US is assaults. And you don't need a gun to fight off an assault.

[DocM]

No, I used the relevant stats to point to the fact that the availability of guns seriously accelerated their usage in crime, my usage is irrelevant. You claimed that I said that the murder rate in the US was 40x that in UK when I CLEARLY said that the murder rate WITH FIREARMS was 40x higher. I think you're vindicating my assertions about your personality, as you evidently have no problem with being dishonest to try to make me look like an ass. And 3.5x higher isn't a small difference, it's still a rather large difference. Enough to vindicate my assertion about the violent nature of US society.

I accepted your rate for gun murders, but as I pointed out that represents a very narrow picture of things because UK'er simply kill by other means. I also feel it's useful to subtract our civil war betwen gangs as they aren't represenbtative of the larger culture, and you have no similar problem. As for the sentence with an equine reference, you're doing fine on your own.

[Tarvis123]

Can't believe that 29,000 number is true. Otherwise they had the highest dropoff of crimes ever recorded from 130,000 a couple years before. Or your sources are comparing two very different criteria. Here's the one I originally used for 2006 stats:

2006

and the newer one:

2008

[Noir Angel]

Your rate of murder is, by your own admission around 3.5x higher than ours, something has to be causing it. Guns are a pretty safe bet given how much crime they're used in. Still not prepared to admit that you just lied about my position? And I'm not the one sitting here defending my violent inclinations so any insult coming from you is actually a compliment, thanks.

[Noir Angel]

Can't believe that 29,000 number is true. Otherwise they had the highest dropoff of crimes ever recorded from 130,000 a couple years before. Or your sources are comparing two very different criteria. Here's the one I originally used for 2006 stats:

2006

and the newer one:

2008

My figures are figures for crimes that are dealt with by law enforcement, yours are figures that come from surveys. Police statistics are more accurate than surveys.

[SupportGeek]

No, I used the relevant stats to point to the fact that the availability of guns seriously accelerated their usage in crime, my usage is irrelevant. You claimed that I said that the murder rate in the US was 40x that in UK when I CLEARLY said that the murder rate WITH FIREARMS was 40x higher. I think you're vindicating my assertions about your personality, as you evidently have no problem with being dishonest to try to make me look like an ass. And 3.5x higher isn't a small difference, it's still a rather large difference. Enough to vindicate my assertion about the violent nature of US society.

Standard bang the drum lockstep rhetoric of the anti crowd "Only my stats are relevant and worthwhile because it has the scary GUN word in it" No one is arguing that guns are used in homicides, what matters ultimately are the homicides by all methods as an aggregate. Once you look at the fact that the total rates are the same regardless of method used, you can draw the conclusion that firearms are not at all responsible for deaths, people are, and people will kill one another regardless of having access to firearms at the same rate everywhere.

[ncoday]

1. was it an airsoft gun (as in plastic bb's) or was it a pellet gun (as in metal bb's or metal pellets) ?

2. was the tip of the gun orange or black ?

3. why did the officer use a real gun, taser would have worked fine.

I hate hearing stories like this. cops are so dumb.

Problem with tasers is you have to get very close for them to be effective. Much to close to be able to change to their guns if they suddenly realize it is a gun.

Police officers have families too, they should not have to put undue risk to their lives just because we want to protect the lives of idiots who walk around with toys that look like real guns.

[Noir Angel]

Standard bang the drum lockstep rhetoric of the anti crowd "Only my stats are relevant and worthwhile because it has the scary GUN word in it" No one is arguing that guns are used in homicides, what matters ultimately are the homicides by all methods as an aggregate. Once you look at the fact that the total rates are the same regardless of method used, you can draw the conclusion that firearms are not at all responsible for deaths, people are, and people will kill one another regardless of having access to firearms at the same rate everywhere.

Never said that firearms were responsible for all deaths but the US has a rate of gun homicide 40x that of the UK, an overall homicide rate 3.5x that of the UK and a rape rate about 1.8x that in the UK. The stats speak for themselves.

[DocM]

Basic truth: guns don't kill people, people kill people. Absent guns they'll use the most convenient alternative, or bare hands if necessary.

The only exceptions I've seen were malfunctions.

[Noir Angel]

An equally basic truth: Guns make killing easy, and a person with a gun is more likely to use lethal force in a situation that doesn't merit it than a person without a gun.

[DocM]

So does a knife, rock, sharp stick, club, cricket bat etc.

I could kill someone 100m away with a bow that I'd never hit with a single pistol shot.

It's all intent, not means.

[Noir Angel]

Except I don't casually walk around carrying any of those items on my person, nor do I pretend that I need them for self defence.

[DocM]

I'm not pretending - the Detroit and most metropolitan areas are dangerous places. Around here we have a saying:

"Detroit: Where The Weak Are Killed And Eaten"

Also see Chicago - it and Illinois have among the strictest gun laws in the US, for what good it does them.

BTW: I also carry a blade - specifically a Ka-Bar TDI Law Enforcement.

[Noir Angel]

You said that you've only shot at one person in your entire life. Evidently you haven't been in situations in which you have needed to defend yourself as often as you seem to be making out.

[DocM]

I've only fired once, but have made numerous citizens arrests. The rest were smart enough not to press their luck.

For your 'entertainment' -

[andrewbares]

You said that you've only shot at one person in your entire life. Evidently you haven't been in situations in which you have needed to defend yourself as often as you seem to be making out.

Holy crap you never stop....

Your statistics mean nothing. Correlation != causation, though you seem to think it does.

About 35% of Canadians owned guns in 1998 (using population number here). There aren't many official stats on ownership in the United States, but the number is often around 25%.

Yet, Canada comes in 14th place for Murders with firearms while the US is at 4th place... even though less people own guns! Wow, amount of people owning guns has nothing to do with how many people are killed by them! It's the people behind them that kill!

The only form of violent crime that is higher in the UK than the US is assaults. And you don't need a gun to fight off an assault.

Uhmmm... YES, you DO need a gun to fight off an assult. I weigh 130 lbs. I'm strong for my body weight (<10% body fat), but I stand NO chance against someone who weighs 200+ lbs and is muscular. Even if we both had knives, he would certainly win. That's where a gun will level the playing field.

Have you ever thought that owning guns decreases assults? Ohhh there's a correlation there, it must be true using your logic!!! It could be true, but who knows. Nevertheless, UK has problems and so does US. Throwing stats around mean nothing, since they don't go to the cause of the problem.

[DocM]

I guess he never saw the stats that show 1.5 to 2.5 million crimes are stopped every year by a citizen with a firearm? (difference: FBI v. Independent university research.)

[RichardK]

Another example of why the Cops need to be held responsible for their actions, maybe then they will actually think before they shoot: http://news.yahoo.com/video/deputies-shoot-kill-man-knocking-163819466.html

These cops should be in jail for murder.

[DocM]

OT - subject of another thread, but that said the entire command chain has to be looked at.

[Noir Angel]

I've only fired once, but have made numerous citizens arrests. The rest were smart enough not to press their luck.

Ahh you mean you poke your nose into other people's business and take the law into your own hands? That explains a lot.