Man orders high-definition TV, gets high-caliber gun instead

[KingCracker]

Your 'rights' come at a great cost to the safety of others. I'm not going to regurgitate the statistics again, I've already done it plenty of times. Regardless of whether or not you can see it, you're still just as big a part of the problem as the criminals because your desire for freely available weapons increases their availability overall.

So prove me wrong. Tell me, how many people would have to die from gun violence before you admitted guns are dangerous. 100,000 a year? A million a year? Half of your population? Or would you continue to loudly trumpet gun ownership even if every single person around you was dying from gun violence? Because frankly the sums are pretty easy to me, if you can simply shrug off violence like it's not a problem then you don't value human life you value the perpetuation of violent cultural imperatives.

You only look at it from one side.. Guns kill innocent people but guns also save lives too. You refuse to admit once guns are banned criminals would be the only ones with guns, 8000 deaths is a small number and those deaths aren't all from legal gun owners some are from police shootings as well. I value my life so much that I own a gun, I own a gun not to take lives but protect my life. I'm not a moron either, I know criminals own guns and they kill innocent people. If the bad guys have guns the good guys (me and others like me) should have them as well. I guess the criminals will turn in their guns once theres a ban lol..

[Noir Angel]

A gun also needs ammunition to kill, a car needs petrol to start. Apart from getting into a competition of stating the blooming obvious I really still don't see the point given that ammunition is even more readily available and easy to acquire in America than the guns. That doesn't change the fact that the gun is still dangerous, imagine for example if this particular gun had made it's way into the hands of someone like the washington sniper instead of someone as honest as he was.

You only look at it from one side.. Guns kill innocent people but guns also save lives too. You refuse to admit once guns are banned criminals would be the only ones with guns, 8000 deaths is a small number and those deaths aren't all from legal gun owners some are from police shootings as well. I value my life so much that I own a gun, I own a gun not to take lives but protect my life. I'm not a moron either, I know criminals on guns and they kill innocent people. If the bad guys have guns the good guys (me and others like me) should have them as well.

Except as I've repeatedly pointed out, guns cost significantly more lives than they save. You haven't shown me one single credible official statistic which backs up your statements, you continue to repeat that guns save lives despite the fact that official stats suggest that guns are used to commit 8x as many crimes as they prevent. If Hitler was found out to have saved the lives of a million Germans, would you suddenly start saying he was an awesome man that saved lives?

I also value my own life, and I have NEVER felt the need to own a gun. And you dodged my question, how many people have to die before you admit there's a problem?

[SupportGeek]

The gun makes the process a hell of a lot easier though. Point and squeeze and somebody dies. I'd like to see someone do that with the same level of efficacy with just the bullet and no gun.

So you were wrong, and now the argument is how easy it is to kill with guns?

You certainly are the fastest kid to pull a strawman out of his hat I've ever seen.

And trying to claim that a gun isn't designed to kill because it needs a bullet is like trying to claim that a car doesn't drive because it needs petrol.

Indeed, a car doesnt drive without fuel, whats your point again?

[Solid Knight]

Given the fact that you can load a gun with less-than-lethal--i.e. ammunition designed not to kill--a gun is merely a platform for launching projectiles via a standardized method of propulsion.

[Noir Angel]

So you were wrong, and now the argument is how easy it is to kill with guns?

You certainly are the fastest kid to pull a strawman out of his hat I've ever seen.

My point is still valid. A gun may need ammunition but it still makes killing extremely easy. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news and all that but the ability to pull a trigger doesn't make you a man, anyone can do it, even a child.

[KingCracker]

A gun also needs ammunition to kill, a car needs petrol to start. Apart from getting into a competition of stating the blooming obvious I really still don't see the point given that ammunition is even more readily available and easy to acquire in America than the guns. That doesn't change the fact that the gun is still dangerous, imagine for example if this particular gun had made it's way into the hands of someone like the washington sniper instead of someone as honest as he was.

Except as I've repeatedly pointed out, guns cost significantly more lives than they save. You haven't shown me one single credible official statistic which backs up your statements, you continue to repeat that guns save lives despite the fact that official stats suggest that guns are used to commit 8x as many crimes as they prevent. If Hitler was found out to have saved the lives of a million Germans, would you suddenly start saying he was an awesome man that saved lives?

I also value my own life, and I have NEVER felt the need to own a gun.

Ive showed you stats but what did you tell me. That's just progun propaganda. Even with facts you refuse to believe anyone. You live in a different part of the world, you don't have a gang problem like you we do. you don't have a wide open border with thousands of people crossing the border every year like we do. You are trying to fix something that can't be fixed by banning guns. There's a lot more things that kill more people than guns. Why don't you go on a crusade to stop those? Besides our murder rate is the lowest since the 60s. look it up on the fbi website..

[Noir Angel]

You produce 'studies' done by pro gun groups, I pull official police figures. I prefer to stick to reputable studies, which is why I dismissed yours, they're not from official sources. And besides, the attitudes of most pro-gunners tells me all I need to know anyway, even the supposedly benign gun advocates are still bloody scary in my eyes.

As for other things that kill? Well you're making an amusing assumption there, maybe you should actually ask for my opinion before jumping to conclusions?

[SupportGeek]

That doesn't change the fact that the gun is still dangerous

As I said before, no matter how desperate you are to have this be true, repeating it doesnt make it so.

The gun by itself is not dangerous, even you admitted this earlier in this thread "Useless" you called it, now you want to backpedal?

imagine for example if this particular gun had made it's way into the hands of someone like the washington sniper instead of someone as honest as he was.

So it would be an illegal firearm at that point, and if criminals obtain their firearms illegally, what was the point of gun laws again?

Oh thats right, to disarm the law abiding and provide more victims criminals and thugs.

Except as I've repeatedly pointed out, guns cost significantly more lives than they save.

Irrelevant, even if they save even 1 life, its one less life that was taken that would have been otherwise.

I also value my own life, and I have NEVER felt the need to own a gun.

Because you live on an island, where nothing gets in or out easily, every move you make is on video, and you couldn't get a firearm if your life depended on it, when something is too hard for a law abiding citizen, he easily draws the conclusion that he can do without, as you have. Your government has oppressed your ability to own firearms and propagandised them to the point that the sheeple see the tool itself as "evil". Why would you want something around you that slays puppies after all?

My point is still valid.

It isnt, it had nothing to do with the conversation at hand, it was simply a whole new thing that you thought you had a better chance at winning since you were unsuccessful with the "bullets not in a gun cant kill" argument.

A gun may need ammunition but it still makes killing extremely easy. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news and all that but the ability to pull a trigger doesn't make you a man, anyone can do it, even a child.

Now its ad-hominem attacks? You really are just swinging aimlessly in the home something will stick huh?

[KingCracker]

You produce 'studies' done by pro gun groups, I pull official police figures. I prefer to stick to reputable studies, which is why I dismissed yours, they're not from official sources. And besides, the attitudes of most pro-gunners tells me all I need to know anyway, even the supposedly benign gun advocates are still bloody scary in my eyes.

As for other things that kill? Well you're making an amusing assumption there, maybe you should actually ask for my opinion before jumping to conclusions?

Well if we scare you stay on your side of the Atlantic. The less brits we have here the better. You've told me all I need to know about you and others like you. You're afraid of the world. You want to coddle everyone. You want to take personal responsibility away from people. You want disarm me so I can't protect myself against criminals that want to harm me. You think i'm scared? I'm not scared I just like to know that I have a chance to live if i'm confronted by someone that wants to do me harm. Yeah, you never had to protect yourself good for you. But I don't live in a fantasy world I live in a real world wear people harm others.

[Noir Angel]

Because you live on an island, where nothing gets in or out easily, every move you make is on video, and you couldn't get a firearm if your life depended on it, when something is too hard for a law abiding citizen, he easily draws the conclusion that he can do without, as you have. Your government has oppressed your ability to own firearms and propagandised them to the point that the sheeple see the tool itself as "evil". Why would you want something around you that slays puppies after all?

Ah so unless society turns into a bunch of gun toting nutters we simply cannot be free? Interesting perspective, but completely false. I don't feel as if I'm being held back in the slightest by not having a gun, killing isn't important to me.

Well if we scare you stay on your side of the Atlantic. The less brits we have here the better. You've told me all I need to know about you and others like you. You're afraid of the world. You want to coddle everyone. You want to take personal responsibility away from people. You want disarm me so I can't protect myself against criminals that want to harm me. You think i'm scared? I'm not scared I just like to know that I have a chance to live if i'm confronted by someone that wants to do me harm. Yeah, you never had to protect yourself good for you. But I don't live in a fantasy world I live in a real world wear people harm others.

Well that definitely goes both ways because I wouldn't really wanna live around people like you either, I like keeping body bags to a minimum, I prefer reason and intellect to "Blow their head off before they blow mine off". You have 8 guns, that isn't self defence that is an obsession. I've never lifted a firearm in self defence and neither have you so stop pretending that we're so different because empirical evidence suggests that you've had no more need for personal protection than me. The whole "I have to have guns because of criminals" is in fact a big product of being scared through the propaganda of gun advocates everywhere.

[McKay]

Well if we scare you stay on your side of the Atlantic. The less brits we have here the better. You've told me all I need to know about you and others like you. You're afraid of the world. You want to coddle everyone. You want to take personal responsibility away from people. You want disarm me so I can't protect myself against criminals that want to harm me. You think i'm scared? I'm not scared I just like to know that I have a chance to live if i'm confronted by someone that wants to do me harm. Yeah, you never had to protect yourself good for you. But I don't live in a fantasy world I live in a real world wear people harm others.

Really? You're going to judge all of us because of him? I've met plenty of Americans who were complete ######, doesn't mean I'll judge the entire nation.

[KingCracker]

Ah so unless society turns into a bunch of gun toting nutters we simply cannot be free? Interesting perspective, but completely false. I don't feel as if I'm being held back in the slightest by not having a gun, killing isn't important to me.

Well that definitely goes both ways because I wouldn't really wanna live around people like you either, I like keeping body bags to a minimum, I prefer reason and intellect to "Blow their head off before they blow mine off". You have 8 guns, that isn't self defence that is an obsession. I've never lifted a firearm in self defence and neither have you so stop pretending that we're so different because empirical evidence suggests that you've had no more need for personal protection than me. The whole "I have to have guns because of criminals" is in fact a big product of being scared through the propaganda of gun advocates everywhere.

You require no intelligent response when you liken me to a killer..

[Noir Angel]

You require no intelligent response when you liken me to a killer..

You have no compassion for the effect that your lust for guns has on people, so yeah sorry but you're no better than they are.

[KingCracker]

You have no compassion for the effect that your lust for guns has on people, so yeah sorry but you're no better than they are.

I have no compassion and I'm as guilty has james holmes and the Neo Nazi.. O..k, that's a new one because last I checked I don't share their views, I don't even know them. You can't make a justifiable argument for banning guns so you just call me a killer..

[123456789A]

I prefer reason and intellect to "Blow their head off before they blow mine off".

So if someone breaks into your house, most likely with a weapon, and confronts you... what exactly would you do?

[Noir Angel]

I have no compassion and I'm as guilty has james holmes and the Neo Nazi.. O..k, that's a new one because last I checked I don't share their views, I don't even know them.

You keep repeatedly refusing to tell me how many gun related deaths you think is too many, pretty telling tbh. And the only realistic reason for that could be that no number, regardless of how high would be too many in your eyes, thus proving my point that guns are more important to you than people's lives.

So if someone breaks into your house, most likely with a weapon, and confronts you... what exactly would you do?

Very few burglars are armed, they're opportunists. But given that in this country you've got more chance of being struck by lightning than of being burgled by someone with a gun, i'd take my chances and try to incapacitate (incapacitate, not kill unless absolutely necessary) then call the police and let them do their job.

[KingCracker]

So if someone breaks into your house, most likely with a weapon, and confronts you... what exactly would you do?

He lives in a world where there is no crime and if some one does break into his house he'll make them a cup of tea and they'll discuss footy.

You keep repeatedly refusing to tell me how many gun related deaths you think is too many, pretty telling tbh. And the only realistic reason for that could be that no number, regardless of how high would be too many in your eyes, thus proving my point that guns are more important to you than people's lives.

I'm not going to even discuss it with you because you don't believe in self defense.

[Noir Angel]

I never said self defence, I said in gun violence full stop. Thanks though, you're proving my opinion of you. And I know as a gun advocate this is lost on you, but you can defend yourself without capping someone's ass. Oh and FYI Formula 1 is my sport of choice and I don't drink tea ;)

[KingCracker]

I never said self defence, I said in gun violence full stop. Thanks though, you're proving my opinion of you.

You can have all the opinions of me as you want, It doesn't really matter. Call me a killer all you want but I live in a place that allows me to meet deadly force with deadly force, if you don't like that then that's tough,deal with it.

[Noir Angel]

And I live in a place where people are civilised and don't feel the need to deal in death and violence. If you don't like it that's tough, deal with it.

[123456789A]

Very few burglars are armed, they're opportunists. But given that in this country you've got more chance of being struck by lightning than of being burgled by someone with a gun, i'd take my chances and try to incapacitate (incapacitate, not kill unless absolutely necessary) then call the police and let them do their job.

People still exercise caution to avoid being struck by lightning, even though the odds are low. Why not have a gun just in case, rather than thinking you are going to take on an armed criminal with nothing to lose?

[KingCracker]

And I live in a place where people are civilised and don't feel the need to deal in death and violence. If you don't like it that's tough, deal with it.

I made that little thread about gun banning in the u.k out of spite. I don't really care about your little country to be honest.

[McKay]

And I live in a place where people are civilised and don't feel the need to deal in death and violence. If you don't like it that's tough, deal with it.

Sure, go live in London where Somalian gangs roam with assault rifles and machine pistols.

[SupportGeek]

Ah so unless society turns into a bunch of gun toting nutters we simply cannot be free? Interesting perspective, but completely false. I don't feel as if I'm being held back in the slightest by not having a gun, killing isn't important to me.

Yet I said nothing of the sort. Strawman again. The whole "You said this and its wrong!" schtick you pull is pretty weak.

If you want to debate, then debate, dont resort to putting words in peoples mouths because you cant actually disprove claims against you.

You have 8 guns, that isn't self defence that is a hobby.

FTFY

I've never lifted a firearm in self defence and neither have you so stop pretending that we're so different because empirical evidence suggests that you've had no more need for personal protection than me. The whole "I have to have guns because of criminals" is in fact a big product of being scared through the propaganda of gun advocates everywhere.

Really? How do you know he has never been the victim of a crime or the need ot protect himself? Thats an awful lot to assume.

Empirical evidence actually proves that you dont actually know what the phrase "empirical evidence" means with your statement.

Having a firearm in case of a criminal is no less a valid idea than having a fire extinguisher in case of fire.

You hope you have to never have to use either for those purpose, but its better to be prepared than to watch everything be destroyed in front of you.

[Noir Angel]

People still exercise caution to avoid being struck by lightning, even though the odds are low. Why not have a gun just in case, rather than thinking you are going to take on an armed criminal with nothing to lose?

The stats I see tell me that statistically my chances of dying from gun violence are actually higher enough when there are liberal gun laws. As my chance is lower overall of dying in gun violence I'm happy to take those odds

Sure, go live in London where Somalian gangs roam with assault rifles and machine pistols.

I've been to london plenty of times and I don't see gangs roaming the streets with machine pistols and assault rifles :laugh: and given that 39 people died from gun violence in 2011 they can't be that much of a threat :laugh:

I made that little thread about gun banning in the u.k out of spite. I don't really care about your little country to be honest.

Strange, because you seem to have just as much hate for us as you claim I have for you. Are you even capable of being honest?

FTFY

I love gaming, I don't own 8 PC's. I love cycling, I don't own 8 bikes. Nobody needs 8 guns, not even for sports shooting.

Having a firearm in case of a criminal is no less a valid idea than having a fire extinguisher in case of fire.

You hope you have to never have to use either for those purpose, but its better to be prepared than to watch everything be destroyed in front of you.

Fire extinguishers aren't items designed to kill. Making them freely available can't possibly increase the amount of deaths.