"Why I

[Shane Nokes]

Rubbish, I do not remember anybody at the university labs I was in ever having problems with the start button. If you want to prove change always has it's opponents then this example was perhaps the worst to choose. Windows 95 was well received in the tech press, I cannot recall ever reading anything that said the start button was so difficult to use, especially as buttons had long been in 3.1 etc.

Not sure I saw the whole tech industry ridiculing the mouse or the GUI so doubt these as well.

Ok. I've already posted examples up before, and so have several others on Neowin, but I'll do it again just for you ;)

The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a ?mouse?. There is no evidence that people want to use these things. I don?t want one of these new fangled devices." -John C. Dvorak

A couple quotes from this article: http://money.cnn.com...18175/index.htm

The result: Windows 95 works, but not very well.

You'll hear how the software is sometimes confusing to use. That's because different pieces of Windows were developed at different times and work with the user interface in different ways.

Given that Microsoft has never taken a breather to go back and clean up all the problems that each version of Windows inherited from the previous one, can it now change the entire theory of the user interface without messing up something else? Microsoft has that certain confidence that comes from enjoying a monopoly and being very good at its business, which leads it to believe that it can do anything. Microsoft and its employees now think it is indeed the Master of the Universe.

How about here: http://www.nytimes.c...nted=all&src=pm

User interfaces are highly personal. I found this one an improvement over Windows 3.1 but persistently irritating nonetheless. How do you call up a directory of your files? Click My Computer or Windows Explorer, which work quite differently from one another. There are many disparate ways to do things as simple as copying a file, but none works quite the way you expect it to, at least not until you discover the formerly dormant right mouse button. Where is the Shut Down option? On the Start button, of course!

How about this one: http://linuxmafia.co...t/win95-bn.html

Long-time Windows users may find the user interface disorienting: Old things are given new names and appearances without much reason.

Drag and drop and Clipboard metaphors work more places than they used to, but are inconsistent: I.e., dragging an .EXE makes a shortcut, while dragging a document moves it. Same action; different result. "Cutting" a file to Clipboard in Windows Explorer (the substitute for File Manager), then cutting a second file, cancels the first cut without notice (contrary to how Clipboard works elsewhere). Many operations are from a cascading menu in the bottom left that is called "Start", even though the machine is already started. Strangest of all, to shut down the system, you use the Start menu. Maybe this stuff will grow on me, but it seems arbitrary and peculiar, for now.

The My Computer icon gives access to the contents of each drive letter and several system folders. In this, it overlaps functions of the Start button and the Windows Explorer app that's reachable on the latter. It's unclear why we need these three almost-identical-but-not-quite ways of getting at files and applications. For that matter, it's unclear why there must be a separate container for network drives (Network Neighborhood). It would be simpler for them to show up among regular drives when they're available.

When I maintained several machines at Blyth Software running versions of the "Chicago" Win95 beta, the user interface was wildly different between beta releases, and was obviously being fooled with right up to the last minute. My opinion is that it still needs work.

In other words, everything I was saying earlier about people not being able to handle the changes in Windows 95 as it was very different are true. There are many more quotes about the mouse, but I couldn't find the earlier thread where there was an entire list of quotes by people like Dvorak talking about how the mouse was a gimmick that wasn't going anywhere.

Two of those by the way were from CNN & the New York Times...what was that you said about the press loving it again? In fact all the underlined bits sound exactly like what I'm reading now 17 years later about Windows 8.

Hmm, funny how I said that history is repeating itself due to people who are afraid of change and unwilling to admit it. They make up stories about how things were universally loved because they remember how it was received AFTER everyone got used to it.

Did you know that Windows 95 sales fell off sharply after the first week? It wasn't a disaster, but it was pretty bad.

[Shannon]

I don't think this article is too far from the truth. He might not be as competent as the average Neowin user when it comes to using an operating system, but I can guarantee he knows his way around Windows better than your average mum and pop. If it takes him that long to work it out, I can't imagine my mum transitioning easily from Win 7 to 8. I don't even want to imagine trying to teach her how to navigate through all the metro menu and gesture weirdness. Her laptop definitely won't be being upgraded.

[Shane Nokes]

Windows 8 - HELLO to the new Vista!!! Have fun when your **** doesn't work right and you have spend a **** ton of money to upgrade your software and hardware to make it work down the road, and all the hours you are going to spend tweaking it to be just like windows 7, which you should have left on your computer in the first place. Now there is the "Windows 8 is faster" crowd, well of course it's faster it doesn't do anything because they took all the cool **** out of it...

Oh yeah. and that old sound card that worked perfect for 5:1 or 7:1 surround sound in Windows 7 finally after 2 years of driver updates, well you will be waiting about that long for the Windows 8 driver that will work just as well... I am going to pass, recommend my entire family passes especially the elderly members, god how do you explain to an old person how to shut it down? O_o Oh yeah my work place will not have it either, power in being the IT Manager. Windows 8 the new Fischer Price toy of computing, looks awesome until you get it out of the box...Enjoy your crap OS!

You do realize that the OS requirements for 8 are slimmed down while the hardware compatibility is practically the same right? So you contradict yourself saying you'll need newer hardware and such to make it work.

I have my 7.1 surround sound working just perfectly and pumping sound through my Ear Force Delta's as we speak.

Then again you made the Fisher Price comment, which was almost made about XP. I think calling a Microsoft OS something by Fisher Price is the new 'M$'. It's how you find the 'cool kids' that think they are edgy and ahead of the curve. If I were your boss and saw this I'd be looking for someone new to head my IT department.

[scaramonga]

Anyone who uses this, and loves it, is seriously 'kidding themselves' on, seriously!. So nothing is going to change their view. Once they see the inevitable failure of this farce, they will slip quietly into the background (same people who thought Vista was Gods rod) and be ready once again to praise the 'fixed version' (Windows 8.5/9, who knows?) without even so much as blinking at the fact that they had backed a 'dud horse' :)

[contextfree]

Sorry, but they're right. The two versions of Windows Explorer WERE maddeningly annoying, and it took till Vista for them to finally fix it.

[Shane Nokes]

Anyone who uses this, and loves it, is seriously 'kidding themselves' on, seriously!. So nothing is going to change their view. Once they see the inevitable failure of this farce, they will slip quietly into the background (same people who thought Vista was Gods rod) and be ready once again to praise the 'fixed version' (Windows 8.5/9, who knows?) without even so much as blinking at the fact that they had backed a 'dud horse' :)

Read my post just a few above yours. You're parroting what people said during Windows 95's launch...

[Dot Matrix]

Heads have to 'roll' for this at Microsoft, and I just bet those who came up with this mess are shaking in their boots, waiting for that 'call' to not come to work ever again, you know? Quite right, and 'Ballmer' should be one of them.

So wait, as the role of the PC expands past the desktop, we should be forced, no matter what, to be using a desktop only UI? In what world does that make sense? I have a PC connected to my TV, why do I need a desktop there? I run a tablet, why do I need a desktop there? I run a touch enabled all in one, why do I need a desktop there? I run a POS kiosk, why do I need a desktop there? I run a mobile laptop, I don't always need a desktop there either. Why should I be forced into it?

Ignorance is bliss, I guess, but this isn't 1995 anymore. Things have changed. Our PC's have changed. It's time for our operating systems to match those changes.

[scaramonga]

So wait, as the role of the PC expands past the desktop, we should be forced, no matter what, to be using a desktop only UI? In what world does that make sense? I have a PC connected to my TV, why do I need a desktop there? I run a tablet, why do I need a desktop there? I run a touch enabled all in one, why do I need a desktop there? I run a POS kiosk, why do I need a desktop there? I run a mobile laptop, I don't always need a desktop there either. Why should I be forced into it?

Ignorance is bliss, I guess, but this isn't 1995 anymore. Things have changed. Out PC's have changed. It's time for our operating systems to match those changes.

Ah......an XBox user :laugh:

I'll say no more.

[chrisj1968]

I did find my way around Win8 quite well. the only issue I think is, they made it a little "too much" tablet oriented. I think (I'm guessing here) what MS was trying to do is mold or fashion an OS into a tablet experience. By brute force. I think i'd really hail MS if they had a system of installation that installed the regular GUI if either by choice or by system analysis.

the desktop has no use for the modern GUI (Former Metro). A PC is a PC not a tablet. Has MS lost itself in its' quest to innovate. I have a laptop, Modern GUI does nothing nor has any use for my non touchscreen laptop.

I've heard the vista rage.. it was a great amount of ambition but it was soon forgotten. I liked it after a awhile. Win7. Works like a champ.Sure same GUI but it functions. Not alot of cruft.

Win8? remains to be seen. but I think alot of regular people will have a poop storm of a time trying to learn the entire experience from scratch. will it do well? will it crash? remains to be seen. I just don't see alot of use for a GUI that's touch based UNLESS I bought a special laptop with a touch screen.

The HUGE gorilla to possibly be aware of is the backlash by the common un initiated user who just buys a computer to use and the look of shock when they either get turned off at the store by the new everything or are somewhat seasoned and get lost to a point of total anarchy against MS. But they might like in the end conversely. Only time will tell.

[Shane Nokes]

Ah......an XBox user :laugh:

I'll say no more.

Someone brings up good points, non related response ensues. Yup, argument lost.

I did find my way around Win8 quite well. the only issue I think is, they made it a little "too much" tablet oriented. I think (I'm guessing here) what MS was trying to do is mold or fashion an OS into a tablet experience. By brute force. I think i'd really hail MS if they had a system of installation that installed the regular GUI if either by choice or by system analysis.

the desktop has no use for the modern GUI (Former Metro). A PC is a PC not a tablet. Has MS lost itself in its' quest to innovate. I have a laptop, Modern GUI does nothing nor has any use for my non touchscreen laptop.

I've heard the vista rage.. it was a great amount of ambition but it was soon forgotten. I liked it after a awhile. Win7. Works like a champ.Sure same GUI but it functions. Not alot of cruft.

Win8? remains to be seen. but I think alot of regular people will have a poop storm of a time trying to learn the entire experience from scratch. will it do well? will it crash? remains to be seen. I just don't see alot of use for a GUI that's touch based UNLESS I bought a special laptop with a touch screen.

The HUGE gorilla to possibly be aware of is the backlash by the common un initiated user who just buys a computer to use and the look of shock when they either get turned off at the store by the new everything or are somewhat seasoned and get lost to a point of total anarchy against MS. But they might like in the end conversely. Only time will tell.

You should also read my earlier quotes about Win95. History repeating itself over and over.

[grayscale]

Email links would open in IE, and when I finally went into File Associations and adjusted it (there were certain links that still opened in IE) to point to Firefox, Metro IE disappeared from everywhere.

E-mail links as in the Mail App? Strange cause mine opens on desktop Firefox. Anyway, Metro IE disappears when you use a different browser as your default one.

[scaramonga]

Someone brings up good points, non related response ensues. Yup, argument lost.

I'm saving your name, one of many, for the Win8 party on here ;)

[Shane Nokes]

I'm saving your name, one of many, for the Win8 party on here ;)

? Mind clarifying your statement. Are you saying party as in YAY BEER, or party as in Right/Left Wings?

I'll go to the former, and heck even probably the latter since both usually have drinks...

The question is...what will you do if Windows 8 hits the same sales figures as 7 or even higher? ;)

[grayscale]

I'm saving your name, one of many, for the Win8 party on here ;)

Err, what's the point? So you could 'haha, told you so. You backed up a failed OS'? and you think that will affect us how? We use the OS because we think it's better not because the whole world bought it.

[chrisj1968]

So wait, as the role of the PC expands past the desktop, we should be forced, no matter what, to be using a desktop only UI? In what world does that make sense? I have a PC connected to my TV, why do I need a desktop there? I run a tablet, why do I need a desktop there? I run a touch enabled all in one, why do I need a desktop there? I run a POS kiosk, why do I need a desktop there? I run a mobile laptop, I don't always need a desktop there either. Why should I be forced into it?

Ignorance is bliss, I guess, but this isn't 1995 anymore. Things have changed. Our PC's have changed. It's time for our operating systems to match those changes.

since you have an all in one doesn't mean others desire such a thing. I hope I'm not misunderstanding you on this but the desktop and laptop GUI has always been the same. access to everything from one "general" locale.. Start button. Sure menus. But with my loss of some capacity due to issues from my recent surgery, I can't remember a dozen or so keyboard commands to move from point a to b.

? Mind clarifying your statement. Are you saying party as in YAY BEER, or party as in Right/Left Wings?

I'll go to the former, and heck even probably the latter since both usually have drinks...

The question is...what will you do if Windows 8 hits the same sales figures as 7 or even higher? ;)

save some grog for the rest of us

[Dot Matrix]

since you have an all in one doesn't mean others desire such a thing. I hope I'm not misunderstanding you on this but the desktop and laptop GUI has always been the same. access to everything from one "general" locale.. Start button. Sure menus. But with my loss of some capacity due to issues from my recent surgery, I can't remember a dozen or so keyboard commands to move from point a to b.

I don't have one "per se", but I was using it as an example of how our PCs have changed since the the Start Menu was introduced, and how it no longer makes sense to have an OS that has that as the main focus. The role of the PC has greatly expanded, and as it continues to do so, we need an OS that can expand with it. An OS with the mouse centric Start Menu cannot fill that role.

[scaramonga]

The question is...what will you do if Windows 8 hits the same sales figures as 7 or even higher? ;)

Course it may do. MS are clever enough to give away crap at crap prices :) Ever see Win7 at a $14.99 upgrade, at launch?? Nope! Yes. Remember my name, bookmark it, but it won't really matter, I'll come looking for you, just to tell you - 'hello' :);)

[Josh the Nerd]

Course it may do. MS are clever enough to give away crap at crap prices :) Ever see Win7 at a $14.99 upgrade, at launch?? Nope! Yes. Remember my name, bookmark it, but it won't really matter, I'll come looking for you, just to tell you - 'hello' :) ;)

As I recall, the Windows 7 upgrade for new PCs was free (and the $14.99 Windows 8 price is likewise only for new PCs.)

[Dot Matrix]

Course it may do. MS are clever enough to give away crap at crap prices :) Ever see Win7 at a $14.99 upgrade, at launch?? Nope! Yes. Remember my name, bookmark it, but it won't really matter, I'll come looking for you, just to tell you - 'hello' :) ;)

Microsoft released special Windows 7 upgrade packages upon it's release. Where's your god now?

[bj55555]

The author of that article is an idiot. He's gotten this completely wrong.

The Metro interface is Windows 8. The desktop that you?re used to is also there, but it?s built as a separate app. Think of it this way: Metro is the shell. The desktop is an app within that shell. If you want to start Steam, you?ll want to launch the Desktop app, and then launch Steam.

Drop into the desktop. Then invoke the start screen. If you press ESC, the start screen goes away. That means the desktop is the shell and the start screen is just a menu.

Also try this: Bring up Task Manager and kill the explorer.exe process. Then try to bring up the start screen. What? Can't do it? That means explorer.exe, like always, IS the shell. Explorer.exe renders the desktop, and the start screen, like the start menu in Windows 7, is just a component of the desktop. It's really just a full-screen overlay on top of the desktop.

[Shane Nokes]

Course it may do. MS are clever enough to give away crap at crap prices :) Ever see Win7 at a $14.99 upgrade, at launch?? Nope! Yes. Remember my name, bookmark it, but it won't really matter, I'll come looking for you, just to tell you - 'hello' :) ;)

Actually yes Microsoft did the same thing for 7. The exact same price even. $14.99 is what they charged for shipping out the discs in most cases for PC users, while not charging for the actual software itself. In fact in some cases shipping wasn't even charged. It was up to the specific OEM terms if it was or not. So some people got it for $0 even after shipping.

So it's good to know that Windows 7 was also crap being given away for free according to your definition. ;)

Edit - Oh and there were even $39 upgrades for users who weren't buying new PC's but upgrading...so yes, again tell me how the price is an indicator of how horrible it is.

[Josh the Nerd]

(delete this)

[Ottawa Gamerz]

do me and the world a faviour stop bitching about 8 if u want a start u want one theres programs if u smart click on the folder i dont miss it and will u please posting topics about it please

[scaramonga]

do me and the world a faviour stop bitching about 8 if u want a start u want one theres programs if u smart click on the folder i dont miss it and will u please posting topics about it please

Is this included in metro? I cant find the folder? In fact, I cant find anything lol....

So it's good to know that Windows 7 was also crap being given away for free according to your definition. ;)

But, at least, good crap! :)

[Shane Nokes]

Is this included in metro? I cant find the folder? In fact, I cant find anything lol....

But, at least, good crap! :)

Oh, and they did it for Vista as well. I was just looking through some old notes & e-mails. So this is actually something I can verify has been done for the last 3 releases at the very least. So it seems like this is a new trend moving forward. I personally welcome it. Point being that if they sell as many licenses (or more) at the same pricing as 7...will you be willing to 'eat your hat' so to speak? ;)

I also believe Ottawa was trying to say that if you want the start button (or heck even a start menu) back there are programs you can download. I couldn't quite parse the folder comment, but I think they mean you can still access the man explorer interface by clicking on the folder icon on the taskbar.