Windows 8 - Unintuitivity at its best

[Rickkins]

So all myth's have been busted in common sense terms.

Hogwash, and, I might add, utter nonsense.

[neo1911]

I still think Win8 will be a success, despite the paradigm shift...

Yes because that's what happens when there is a monopoly.

[remixedcat]

I just really hate the music app... really really hate it... hope there is a decent replacement (start screen, metro, moden ui, whateva yah wanna call it) for it for winRT/metro... that's the biggest complaint from me. I hope J-River can make a decent winRT/SS/Metro app.

[andrewbares]

Nobody needs a clock OK.

Many wise people know that saying "Nobody" or "Everybody" makes yourself look dumb.

If all Metro style apps had different search boxes and places it would be harder

LOL, I would strongly disagree with that. If what you said were true, then people would be having trouble using the search box on Facebook, in Outlook.com and Google would be tough to use.

Don't use File Explorer... don't use Photo Viewer... Why are you using Metro IE... Don't use Metro IE... Don't use Metro IE... Don't use Reader

Wow your answers are so revolutionary. I never thought the solution would be to simply not use any of the new features in the operating system!!!

[Dashel]

My biggest qualm with the print issue is its the exact same headache they created when the ribbon first appeared. So now users have been retrained from looking at an always visible icon to a drop down menu in the upper left to a hidden one in the upper right, masked by an additional vague label. Same with search. We have the screen real estate, use it.

The posters here that continually muddy or simply fail to comprehend the point being made are quite ignorent. Keep parroting that 'new frame of mind' while users jump off a cliff though. I've heard much of the same list from my focus groups. Somewhere in this new race for consistency (starting with 7) for disparite devices, they've forgotten the other consistency that matters - the user. They've had to do a lot of retooling in the last couple generations.

(You have to realize that Wyn is to the Win8 discussions what Zan is to the religious thread)

[Dot Matrix]

Yes because that's what happens when there is a monopoly.

Where is there a monopoly? I don't see one...

[andrewbares]

My biggest qualm with the print issue is its the exact same headache they created when the ribbon first appeared.

Eh, I don't see how this is like the Ribbon. I personally found the ribbon to be a great step forward, since it was helping me discover features I never even knew about in Office.

This, however, is taking the exact same features and making them tougher and more confusing to get at, without exposing any new features.

Printing is something that is specific to an app... thus I believe a print button should be in the bottom app bar. Searching is something that is specific to an app, thus I believe they should have a search box in the app.

Guess what, saving is something that a ton of apps do. Why isn't Save in the Charms bar too then??? Cause it's a bad idea to move it there, since saving is specific to that app, just like printing.

Where is there a monopoly? I don't see one...

Microsoft DEFINITELY has a monopoly over computers. And because of that, Windows 8 will do just fine sales wise. It'll be on every single new computer, and therefore get a large market share.

However, I'm not sure if users will actually like it. Eventually they'll have to learn to live with it though, because I can't imagine Microsoft's immense computer market share ever falling.

[nub]

My Nokia Lumia 900 running Windows Phone 7.5 tells a different story. In other words: You're wrong.

Its visible 90% of the time, if you go to a "hub" type app (e.g. People, Xbox Live, Pictures) it goes away (unless you get a status message or loading bar at the top of the screen for a second). Not visible in Netflix, Facebook.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Microsoft does extensive UX studies. If something wasn't working out, they'd know by now. It's how they came to the conclusion to kill the Start Menu.

Ah that old line... That just by doing studies you'll always make the perfect choice and do nothing wrong, ever.

Be sure to drop that line to the nice people who run Coca Cola while you're at it. I'm sure they'll have a great laugh.

[neo1911]

I just really hate the music app... really really hate it... hope there is a decent replacement (start screen, metro, moden ui, whateva yah wanna call it) for it for winRT/metro... that's the biggest complaint from me. I hope J-River can make a decent winRT/SS/Metro app.

The first thing I do on installing Windows 8 is uninstall Mail, Music, Videos apps. The depending apps get removed as well and I get clean and crisp experience. I also remove IE10 and WMP from program and features.

I use iTunes for music as it syncs my phone and pot player X64 for video playback.

I am finally at peace with Windows 8. :)

[Wyn6]

My biggest qualm with the print issue is its the exact same headache they created when the ribbon first appeared. So now users have been retrained from looking at an always visible icon to a drop down menu in the upper left to a hidden one in the upper right, masked by an additional vague label. Same with search. We have the screen real estate, use it.

The posters here that continually muddy or simply fail to comprehend the point being made are quite ignorent. Keep parroting that 'new frame of mind' while users jump off a cliff though. I've heard much of the same list from my focus groups. Somewhere in this new race for consistency (starting with 7) for disparite devices, they've forgotten the other consistency that matters - the user. They've had to do a lot of retooling in the last couple generations.

(You have to realize that Wyn is to the Win8 discussions what Zan is to the religious thread)

Awww. Your first entry into the discussion and I get a special mention. I am blushing over here. Shucks. It's great to see, after all this time, that you haven't forgot about our little geeky rivalry, Dashel. Because, I did. However, I am looking forward to many more masterful bon mots like the above. Ciao!

[kde]

To andrewbares, the OP;

You are a Windows 7 power user

You are NOT a Windows 8 power user.

I don't think you can disagree with this assertion, considering you admit as much in the original post (only used for two weeks, couldn't print a file etc.)

So let that be the end of all 'Power User' talk. No one here is a Windows 8 Power User - not you, not I.

And before you think you're smarter than me, I am a software engineer, so you can't use that against me like you did with others.

So, going through your list;

Printing Files -

Basically all you are saying here is that the Charms menu is totally new to you and you have not yet grasped the concept. Fine. It is indeed different, it took me a while to work it out. But I will tell you know that when I first used

Windows 95, I did not know how to print either. I don't remember telling all my friends that Windows 95 was unintuitive - I do remember asking them for help though.

No Clock -

This is a matter of personal opinion. For every person that does want the clock visible at all times, there are probably just as many people that do not want it visible at all times.

I don't really see how this is unintuitive, since it shows up with the charms bar, which people will be using a lot.

Searching in email is a pain -

This is a repeat of your first problem - you do not get the Charms menu and the concept behind it.

Can't flip between photos, must open them one by one -

I am assuming you are opening the photos directly from your desktop, straight into the Photos app. You should change your default photo viewer app to Windows Photo Viewer.

I am sure your argument would be that 'common' users will not know how to do this. Fair enough, but you will find that these users usually just click around and get where they want.

In this case, they will click back; then they will find the album all over again, then continue happily in the photo app, switching between photos with the arrows as someone else already mentioned.

Can't flip between attached photos in email -

Not sure I have ever found an email application that allows this, would love to know of one if you can point to it.

This is sort of something you are wishing for. Just because a particular feature does not exist, does not mean it is unintuitive.

Switching tabs in IE Metro -

I dont see this as a problem. How would you have done this, with your great software design prowess?

Bringing up the bottom and top options bar in apps -

Same as point above.

No "Save As" option in IE Metro -

Why do you want to save it? So that you can open it later? Then add it to your favourites.

So that you can send it to someone? Use the share charm.

So that you can look at the HTML markup? Probably should not be trying that in IE Metro.

I though you like to think about your end users... does it not cross your mind as totally correct to omit something like that from your users, as it is not needed for anyone except a developer?

Reader crashes and doesn't save -

Don't know about this one.

Two browsers, too much to handle -

Actually, I think this is very easy... you are obviously wanting for Windows 8 to behave as much as possible like Windows 7... then clearly, you would want to use Desktop IE.

I dont know about you, but I like having multiple browsers available. I have IE Metro, IE Desktop, Chrome and Firefox installed all at the same time.

Depending on the weather, hunger and mood, I choose a different browser for each session.

If I wanted to make it easier on myself, I would probably just always click the Chrome icon instead, since that is my preference.

My printer doesn't work -

I think you have already worked out whats going on here.

So in conclusion, all you are really bitching about is two things;

- Windows 8 is very different to Windows 7 - way way more different than going from Vista to 7 or XP to 7. And in your mind this is a bad thing.

- Windows 8 adds a lot of extra stuff that didnt exist with Windows 7. And in your mind this too is a bad thing.

No body promised you that you will have a File > Print menu. You should just install Adobe Reader (since you would have had to do the same thing with Windows 7 anyway - it does not come bundled)

No one promised you that there would be a Search button in the mail app. You should install Windows Live Essentials (since you would have had to do the same thing with Windows 7 anyway - it does not come bundled)

No one promised you that there would be a save as option in Metro IE. You should just use Desktop IE or another browser (since that is what you would have been doing in Windows 7 anyway)

You see? Windows 8 gave you some extra options - you did not like them, and instead of just going back to what you know and love, you came on to the internet to publicly bash Windows 8.

I also have linked print screens of Adobe Reader and the Chrome PDF Viewer on Desktop.

http://www.use.com/a796d2cf17782a69ee19#photo=1

http://www.use.com/a796d2cf17782a69ee19#photo=2

I would like you to explain to me, looking at these screenshots, how I am supposed to print the PDF file with just 1 click.

I would then like to point out that, in the future, say 5 years from now...

Whenever anyone wants to print anything, from anywhere, be it from Adobe Reader, the built-in reader, Chrome, Mail app, Any other Metro app, or whatever, they will always know exactly where to go.

Because there is only one place to print from. And that is Devices > Printer. This is the ultimate in consistency.

I also challenge you to name the apps that you have published to the Windows Phone marketplace, so we can have a look and judge for ourselves how good you really are, since you believe you could do better than Microsoft.

[andrewbares]

To andrewbares, the OP;

You are a Windows 7 power user

You are NOT a Windows 8 power user.

So let that be the end of all 'Power User' talk. No one here is a Windows 8 Power User - not you, not I.

I also challenge you to name the apps that you have published to the Windows Phone marketplace, so we can have a look and judge for ourselves how good you really are, since you believe you could do better than Microsoft.

Fair enough, only the developers of Windows 8 have actually spent enough time with it to probably be considered "power users" of Windows 8. But a tech power user generally applies over multiple operating systems. Anyways whatever, we're all new to Windows 8.

My main app is Power Planner. It's been in the highest rated WP app category for a long time, been the 4th highest rated at one time, it's at 13th place right now (right below Baconit, last time I checked it was actually right above Baconit). Average rating of 4.76 stars from 268 reviews. Nokia named it one of the 10 essential apps for back to school.

I also developed SocialBox Live, which has had great positive feedback.

Printing files

No, I'm saying that the concept is BAD. It's not intuitive as in when people are looking to print something, they look for the words PRINT.

No clock

If it's half-half, then why not make an option for it? Then everyone would be happy.

Searching in email

Why should something like searching (a common task in email) be hidden away in the charms bar? It's just silly, and makes it slower to get to search. It's not that I'm "not used to this new unified way", it's that I think it's a bad way of doing it and is making simple tasks slower than they were before.

Can't flip between photos

The fact still remains that viewing pictures from the file explorer is a crappy experience. And cause of these other issues, I bet you people will be spending time in the desktop instead of Modern (my parents decided it's better to stay in the desktop for example). But they don't know how to change default programs so they'll be stuck with the photo viewer.

Switching tabs in IE

Here's a real simple solution that took 1 minute of thinking: When tabs are minimized and user is viewing page, simply switch the tabs to the style that they are right now in desktop IE... a.k.a. the rectangle labels. Then user can quickly tap a tab to switch between them. One click. If user swipes down or if they right click on the page, then expand the top tabs to the large tabs with the screenshots inside them.

Bringing up bottom and top bars

I simply wouldn't use a system that completely hides everything, at least on the desktop I wouldn't. Problem solved.

No "Save As" in Modern IE

I guess I could have been clearer, but I assumed the only time people are saving is when they're downloading files. That's what I meant, in downloads. You can ONLY save something you downloaded to the Downloads folder... that folder is going to get overwhelmingly cluttered very fast.

Two browsers, too much to handle

No, I don't want Windows 8 to behave like Win7. I'm fine with change, and I enjoy new experiences. I actually WANT to use Modern 24/7, but it throws me out to the desktop for a number of things (like watching YouTube, etc). So then I have to remember "Hmm do I have that one website open in the desktop, or is it in Modern?" instead of simply having it all in one place.

So in conclusion...

- I never said different is a bad thing. You're adding your own words to the mix. I like different and new things, thank you very much. What I don't like is new things that are designed poorly. It's like if a car company decided "We're going to rename Ignition to Engine, because you're using an Engine" just like "We're going to rename Print to Devices, because you're using a device". It'd be dumb.

- Your second point makes absolutely no sense. When did I say adding extra stuff is a bad thing??

The PDF viewer for Chrome is completely different, I can't speak for that. Not my fault that the developers of the PDF for Chrome viewer didn't follow consistent patterns.

[Dot Matrix]

Ah that old line... That just by doing studies you'll always make the perfect choice and do nothing wrong, ever.

Be sure to drop that line to the nice people who run Coca Cola while you're at it. I'm sure they'll have a great laugh.

What's wrong with Windows 8 again? Because I've been using it on my desktop and other PCs for months now, and have had little problems adapting. What wrong are they doing here, because I see a lot of right things going on. Please entertain me.

[.Neo]

It was Neo's attitude that got to me. He could have politely informed me I was wrong, especially as it isn't obvious that is the case, due to how many app developers appear to turn the clock off.

I told you the very first time Windows Phone 7.5's behavior is to display the clock at all times. Something you kept disputing. It was pretty much your attitude that annoyed me, hence the reason I flat out told you you're wrong.

[Ice_Blue]

I haven't seen any insults in this thread, but I haven't scanned it thoroughly, so please let me know or report any posts that you believe break our rules. I think I've seen people refer to general groups as 'morons', but not maliciously, and they haven't called each other morons, from what I saw (but as I mention, I haven't had time to read the thread thoroughly, to know for sure).

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1102311-something-is-seriously-wrong-with-this-website/page__st__15__p__595136679#entry595136679

[.Neo]

The first thing I do on installing Windows 8 is uninstall Mail, Music, Videos apps. The depending apps get removed as well and I get clean and crisp experience. I also remove IE10 and WMP from program and features.

I use iTunes for music as it syncs my phone and pot player X64 for video playback.

I am finally at peace with Windows 8. :)

You're finally at peace with Windows 8 because you uninstalled many of its new features? :p

[neo1911]

You're finally at peace with Windows 8 because you uninstalled many of its new features? :p

Come on mate. Few apps don't make features. That too worthless apps.

[Rickkins]

New does not always mean "better"...

[aviator189]

It's a new os, obviously you're going to have to figure some things out.

[.Neo]

Come on mate. Few apps don't make features. [?]

Of course they do. They're part of the shipping product called "Windows 8".

[funkydude]

Downloading another PDF viewer to print was a bit funny, I guess after 20 years people still don't know about ctrl+P.

[Dashel]

Eh, I don't see how this is like the Ribbon. I personally found the ribbon to be a great step forward, since it was helping me discover features I never even knew about in Office.

I never said anything about the Ribbon in general, but the way it changed printing behavior for the end user. One of the most common questions after migration to Office 2007/2010 is 'How do I print' - so they needed to be trained to either create a quick print icon or use the File menu. Same usability issue here and more relearning required on the part of the user.

I also agree with your point that it muddles what should be in the scope of the Charms vs in the App contextual.

[David Crane]

Plenty of good points here. This Windows 8 turned out to the a great mess, let's just see if it fails worse than Vista did. I'm guessing it might be the worse fail from Microsoft ever (apart from Bing).

[rhianntp]

Windows 8 is a disaster and deserves the fate that surely awaits it :D