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Windows 8 - Unintuitivity at its best

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Active.    1,695
computing would still be stuck at the Mainframe/terminal/CLI. But we all know now that type of computing was highly inefficient,

Just for the record. It's not that the CLI is inefficient per se. It's just that for most tasks and for most users the amount of effort that is required to get to a point where the CLI starts to become more efficient than the GUI is usually not worth it compared to the gain in efficiency that in certain cases is possible to be achieved once certain commands have been learnt. That is the reason why in most cases for most users the GUI is (way) more efficient.

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ahhell    1,303

Oh damn straight... and let me tell you I howled at the superbar nonsense myself. That is, until somebody figured out how to return it to the way it was in XP..... which I continue to use, even in win8. I strongly belong in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp.

I recall my favorite quote from those days, and I'll probably never forget this one... when discussing why ms had to move the "show desktop" button from the left side to the right side... some genius chimed in, and I quote, " I just fly my mouse down to the corner and bam I'm right there".... :rolleyes:

Ah so you are one of those "XP is the bestest!!111!" guys. That explains a lot.

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.Neo    1,834

[?] It's visible only on the lock screen and the Start screen. [?]

My Nokia Lumia 900 running Windows Phone 7.5 tells a different story. In other words: You're wrong.

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AnDom    14

The Windows 8 argument is like beating a dead horse, with a dead horse. :/

The thing that irks me most about these conversations is the whole ideal of "Power User"... people saying they are power users vs. people saying others are not power users because they can't figure out the new schizophrenic user interface etc.

The intent it seems for the phrase "Power User" is someone how knows many of the ins/outs of windows... but just because you understand how to use all the little tricks doesn't mean you are actually doing anything useful to begin with.

On the other side the spectrum, I consider a "Power User" someone that actually needs to get things done... many many things at the same time, in the most efficient way possible.

Windows 8 is not for those people that need to get things done. Metro + Desktop is like trying to deal with someone Dissociative identity disorder. Half of your interface is designed with single-task full screen interaction in mind, while the other half is operation on the traditional multiple task windowed interface. The two mesh very poorly.... particularly for people that are doing significantly amounts of work simultaneously. As someone else said (don't remember who)... Metro is designed for "content consumers" not "content creators".

The "Start Page" is the prime example of this... for users (the ones that need to get things done) the context switch between the Desktop + multiple windows layout into a full screen view is just jarring. I personally have times when I have 30-40 active windows open, all of which I am exchanging data between... but then I need to launch a new application, so I have to "exit" out of this into a full screen, fiddle around with an interface that has an entirely separate design, and then go back to what I was working on. In my own personal testing, this results in some serious "pausing" as I try to figure out where I had left off.

And don't get me started on this whole "Charms"/"Start Page"/"Hot Corners" mess when it comes to multiple monitors (particularly very large monitors).

Anyway I could carry on about all the UI design/usability issues Microsoft has created with this Windows 8 debacle, but I don't see much point. Windows 8 follows the same strategy that many other Microsoft releases have followed in the past: They find something someone else is doing that they like... then they haphazardly "staple" it to what they have, and then they call it done. It isn't until the next release that whatever they just stapled on is polished enough to even being using.

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andrewbares    110

But, your statement clearly shows that you were speaking from your own perspective regardless of what you may or may not have meant.

Once again, you're incorrect. Let me break it down for you...

"I'm a power user" - That doesn't tell you anything about what KIND of power user I am. I develop apps for Windows Phone and Android and am going to develop a few for Windows 8. As a developer, you must constantly take the perspective of your users. I do that with everything I use, even if I didn't develop it myself. I think "Would other people be able to figure this out?" "Is this simple?" And I take the same approach with using Windows 8.

You made a ASSUMPTION, which well... we all know what that means.

The audience Windows 8 was built for is your common user and that's the perspective I typically take.

And yes, a printer does NOT pop up into my head as a device. Even as a developer, it doesn't come to my mind. Never once while using Windows have I ever had to go to "Devices" to print. And there are other people on these forums who agree with me. Just because you see it this way doesn't mean everyone else does.

So, stop making assumptions.

What's intuitive is having one central place for printing in every single app...

Sounds a whole lot like what we already had. Except it used to be quicker to click Print, now it's slower.

But, your statement clearly shows that you were speaking from your own perspective regardless of what you may or may not have meant.

Once again, you're incorrect. Let me break it down for you...

"I'm a power user" - That doesn't tell you anything about what KIND of power user I am. I develop apps for Windows Phone and Android and am going to develop a few for Windows 8. As a developer, you must constantly take the perspective of your users. I do that with everything I use, even if I didn't develop it myself. I think "Would other people be able to figure this out?" "Is this simple?" And I take the same approach with using Windows 8.

You made a ASSUMPTION, which well... we all know what that means.

The audience Windows 8 was built for is your common user and that's the perspective I typically take.

And yes, a printer does NOT pop up into my head as a device. Even as a developer, it doesn't come to my mind. Never once while using Windows have I ever had to go to "Devices" to print. And there are other people on these forums who agree with me. Just because you see it this way doesn't mean everyone else does.

So, stop making assumptions.

What's intuitive is having one central place for printing in every single app...

Sounds a whole lot like what we already had. Except it used to be quicker to click Print, now it's slower.

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Calum    819

My Nokia Lumia 900 running Windows Phone 7.5 tells a different story. In other words: You're wrong.

No, I am not wrong. My HTC Mozart running Windows Phone 7.5 tells a different story. In other words, you're wrong.

I checked in many apps, before I posted my reply. Some apps may, but I haven't ever seen the clock in an app. Where are you seeing the clock, other than the lock screen and the Start screen?

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Routerbad    90

snip

This gave me de ja vu X4

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Calum    819

[. . .]

Sounds a whole lot like what we already had. Except it used to be quicker to click Print, now it's slower.

I didn't see that. The print buttons were in different places on the toolbar, they were often hidden in the File menu (or one had to specifically customise the toolbar to show the button), and there were other inconsistencies. Now the print option is in one central place.

Is it really slower, though? I haven't noticed any time wasted or any extra spent, it's a few clicks instead of one click.

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andrewbares    110

I didn't see that. The print buttons were in different places on the toolbar, they were often hidden in the File menu (or one had to specifically customise the toolbar to show the button), and there were other inconsistencies. Now the print option is in one central place.

Is it really slower, though? I haven't noticed any time wasted or any extra spent, it's a few clicks instead of one click.

The print icon is typically in the upper left corner... pretty dang common in most apps. Especially for things you typically print (like Adobe Reader). And when do developers ever think "Let's add a few more clicks in here!" I don't want to meet those developers :s

No, I am not wrong. My HTC Mozart running Windows Phone 7.5 tells a different story. In other words, you're wrong.

I checked in many apps, before I posted my reply. Some apps may, but I haven't ever seen the clock in an app. Where are you seeing the clock, other than the lock screen and the Start screen?

Actually the other guy is right. By default the clock is displayed in WP7. Developers actually have to go OUT of their way to hide the clock (changing SystemTray.IsVisible to false)

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Depicus    937

No, I am not wrong. My HTC Mozart running Windows Phone 7.5 tells a different story. In other words, you're wrong.

I checked in many apps, before I posted my reply. Some apps may, but I haven't ever seen the clock in an app. Where are you seeing the clock, other than the lock screen and the Start screen?

Well the first app I opened on my WP7.5 was mail and the clock is at the top, same with Maps but not in Pictures or Twitter.

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Calum    819

The print icon is typically in the upper left corner... pretty dang common in most apps. Especially for things you typically print (like Adobe Reader). And when do developers ever think "Let's add a few more clicks in here!" I don't want to meet those developers :s

Typically, perhaps, but not always. Even so, I don't believe that button should be ever-present on the UI, clogging it up. I disagree with your insinuation that more clicks are bad. More clicks aren't always bad, especially if it is the result of a cleanup of the UI, so that features are placed in more logical and intuitive places. An example of this is when Microsoft introduced the Ribbon in office; many features required more clicks after that, but the overhaul made sense, it made Office more intuitive, and it ensured the UI was more attractive and logical. If someone wishes to print in Windows 8, all they have to do is go to the Devices Charm, click on it, and select their printer. I really do want to understand why that bothers you so much, and I am trying to understand. It's a few extra clicks, but how often do you print? It surely isn't going to hinder your productivity, is it?

Actually the other guy is right. By default the clock is displayed in WP7. Developers actually have to go OUT of their way to hide the clock (changing SystemTray.IsVisible to false)

Thank you for letting me know. I had no idea because I hadn't ever heard that, I haven't yet developed any Windows Phone apps, and I don't remember ever seeing the clock while using an app. Due to that, I thought the best way of checking would be for me to open many apps and see if the clock was evident in them. It was Neo's attitude that got to me. He could have politely informed me I was wrong, especially as it isn't obvious that is the case, due to how many app developers appear to turn the clock off.

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Depicus    937

I didn't see that. The print buttons were in different places on the toolbar, they were often hidden in the File menu (or one had to specifically customise the toolbar to show the button), and there were other inconsistencies. Now the print option is in one central place.

Is it really slower, though? I haven't noticed any time wasted or any extra spent, it's a few clicks instead of one click.

And what is to stop developers putting their print button elsewhere and not hooking up the devices option ? If it was inconsistent (which I don't think it was) what makes you think it's going to get any better with Metro ?

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Calum    819

And what is to stop developers putting their print button elsewhere and not hooking up the devices option ? If it was inconsistent (which I don't think it was) what makes you think it's going to get any better with Metro ?

I'm not sure whether Microsoft disallow WinRT apps that do that. If they don't, then it is up to the app developer if they wish to contribute to an inconsistent platform, but the consistency is certainly an option for them. I'm merely discussing the point of the Devices Charm and the benefits of it. It could get better with this new experience, if developers take full advantage of the contracts and APIs, and that is what I'm advocating. I don't know what other developers have in mind.

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Wyn6    358

Once again, you're incorrect. Let me break it down for you...

"I'm a power user" - That doesn't tell you anything about what KIND of power user I am. I develop apps for Windows Phone and Android and am going to develop a few for Windows 8. As a developer, you must constantly take the perspective of your users. I do that with everything I use, even if I didn't develop it myself. I think "Would other people be able to figure this out?" "Is this simple?" And I take the same approach with using Windows 8.

You made a ASSUMPTION, which well... we all know what that means.

The audience Windows 8 was built for is your common user and that's the perspective I typically take.

And yes, a printer does NOT pop up into my head as a device. Even as a developer, it doesn't come to my mind. Never once while using Windows have I ever had to go to "Devices" to print. And there are other people on these forums who agree with me. Just because you see it this way doesn't mean everyone else does.

So, stop making assumptions.

I guess we're simply going to have to agree to disagree. See, the pronouns "I" "Me" and "My" fooled me. These usually serve to denote a reference to one's self and/or one's experiences. So, you can see how this could easily lead someone to believe you were talking about yourself. As I said before, if you would have clarified by saying you were attempting to represent how you believe the average user may see things, that mitigates the whole debate.

Again, I was never arguing your opinion. If you don't like it or believe the average user won't, I won't begrudge you that considering most of your points boil down to personal preferences or beliefs. I was arguing what appeared to be a self-referencing, pronoun-laced misunderstanding of how Windows 8 works. As I said before, I was trying to help.

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Depicus    937

I'm not sure whether Microsoft disallow WinRT apps that do that. If they don't, then it is up to the app developer if they wish to contribute to an inconsistent platform, but the consistency is certainly an option for them. I'm merely discussing the point of the Devices Charm and the benefits of it. It could get better with this new experience, if developers take full advantage of the contracts and APIs, and that is what I'm advocating. I don't know what other developers have in mind.

I am still having a hard time understanding what was wrong with the file > print which when I used to do windows apps were usually already created as part of the default templates, at least in Delphi and VB as I remember. It was consistent and for 17+ years we all knew where it was on multiple platforms.

I suspect it won't be long before we see Metro apps with print buttons, yes I would love to see a consistent interface but when Apple and Microsoft so consistently break their own guidelines why should developers slavishly follow them.

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bj55555    229

Actually, any Windows 7 apps I've used have been VERY consistent. If it's an app that usually prints, there's a print button right there on the page. Otherwise, there's File->Print.

It's not consistent. Otherwise, you wouldn't have uttered the word "otherwise".

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Rickkins    283

Ah so you are one of those "XP is the bestest!!111!" guys. That explains a lot.

Wow...just, wow. Talk about reading comprehension fail.

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+Fahim S.    1,058

It's kind of simple in my eyes - vote with your wallet. Don't like it, don't buy it, don't use it.

I still think Win8 will be a success, despite the paradigm shift...

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Depicus    937

It's not consistent. Otherwise, you wouldn't have uttered the word "otherwise".

at least we can say that the metro apps are all consistent :)

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andrewbares    110

Typically, perhaps, but not always. Even so, I don't believe that button should be ever-present on the UI, clogging it up. I disagree with your insinuation that more clicks are bad. More clicks aren't always bad, especially if it is the result of a cleanup of the UI, so that features are placed in more logical and intuitive places. An example of this is when Microsoft introduced the Ribbon in office; many features required more clicks after that, but the overhaul made sense, it made Office more intuitive, and it ensured the UI was more attractive and logical. If someone wishes to print in Windows 8, all they have to do is go to the Devices Charm, click on it, and select their printer. I really do want to understand why that bothers you so much, and I am trying to understand. It's a few extra clicks, but how often do you print? It surely isn't going to hinder your productivity, is it?

The whole point is that apps that typically print things should have a print button easily accessible. When viewing PDF's, a decently common task is printing.

Apps that don't print wouldn't have a printer button in the bottom application bar, and it wouldn't be "clogging" up your UI. Best of both worlds. That's how programs have always worked.

And yes, File-Print was CONSISTENT. I don't see how that was not consistent... then for apps that typically print, they had a quick-access button for getting to Print. That's extremely consistent.

Thank you for letting me know. I had no idea because I hadn't ever heard that, I haven't yet developed any Windows Phone apps, and I don't remember ever seeing the clock while using an app. Due to that, I thought the best way of checking would be for me to open many apps and see if the clock was evident in them. It was Neo's attitude that got to me. He could have politely informed me I was wrong, especially as it isn't obvious that is the case, due to how many app developers appear to turn the clock off.

Yeah that's a case of where apps developed in one way can give someone the impression that the whole operating system is like that. Just like buggy and slow apps (Facebook) can give people the impression that Windows Phone doesn't properly support push notifications and is slow. It's not your fault you thought that WP7 hid the clock by default, that's simply all you've seen :)

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Depicus    937

Just had a read of this http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464920.aspx

Some classic stuff in here. This is what I would call classic marketing bull "Solve for distractions, not discoverability. Let people be immersed in what they love and they will explore the rest"

And we are told to Win As One so "Fit into the UI model to reduce redundancy. Take advantage of what people already know to provide a sense of familiarity, control, and confidence."

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D.Va    566

The Windows 8 argument is like beating a dead horse, with a dead horse. :/

......

Shhhh, you're making too much sense. :p

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contextfree    47

So do you think you are more likely on a regular basis to "share" than to print ?

Of course. I often exchange data from one app to another, whereas I don't even have a printer.

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contextfree    47

Incidentally, IIRC the Devices charm surfaces each individual printer directly on the sidebar, while in-app Print buttons typically require you to choose a printer manually. That means it's not necessarily more clicks if you have multiple printer-like things (including, e.g., "send to OneNote") you use regularly, even compared to having the print button directly on the canvas. When using a non-default printer vs. a program that puts its Print option within a File menu (as most do) it's 2 clicks (Devices -> individual printer) vs. 4 (File -> Print -> click combo box -> individual printer).

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WinMetro    0

Let's debunk the myth's of Windows 8. So let's go ahead and bust these myths from the O.P.

No Clock

Nobody needs a clock OK. If you need to see the time swipe from the right for the charms and then you see the time OK.

Searching in email is a pain

It's not a pain, it's consistent. If all Metro style apps had different search boxes and places it would be harder, so all you need to remember is the Search charm, and it works with all Metro style apps that support the contract.

Can't flip between photos, must open them one by one

Don't use File Explorer to flip between photos, use another program for that.

Can't flip between attached photos in email

Again, don't use Photo Viewer to flip between photos, use another program for that.

Switching tabs in IE Metro

Why are you using Metro IE? You know it's designed for touchscreens. Use desktop IE, now that's a proper IE.

Bringing up the bottom and top options bar in apps

Don't use Metro IE.

No "Save As" option in IE Metro

Don't use Metro IE to download.

Reader crashes and doesn't save

Don't use Reader, instead use a proper PDF reading app.

Two browsers, too much to handle

Simple, just choose what IE you want to browse in and you don't have to worry about that.

My printer doesn't work

What does that have to do with Windows 8 - Unintuitivity at it best? You know that's a driver issue and it's in the post.

Printing Files

Again, having printing in a consistent location across Metro style apps is good and great. I call that myth busted.

So all myth's have been busted in common sense terms. Please MS doesn't care about people that don't like Windows 8. I consider using Windows 7 Explorer for Windows 8, gives you the best of both worlds, No Metro and there's OS improvements. So going back to Windows 7 is bad idea because Windows 8 has improvements across the board.

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