Just how many people hate Windows 8?

[PGHammer]

Even with the Surface RT price drop you can get an Android tablet with the same specs for cheaper, with a better software ecosystem.

 

Yes this is related to Windows 8 because one of their main strategies for pushing the less efficient, less productive, less functional start screen on desktop users is to make them more likely to buy MS tablets and phones. Not working. All MS has managed to do is **** off their existing customers while failing to attract the iOS/Android crowd.

Tell me - exactly what is better about the Android ecosystem?  App quality?  App count?

If you mean the latter (app count) your point is quite valid, and something nobody disputes.  However, app quality is quite a different kettle of fish.

App quality in general (including, if not especially, on Google Play) is, to put it bluntly, worse - FAR worse - than the Windows 8/RT App Store.  In fact, it's worse than the iOS App Store.

Further, both Android and iOS (and their apps) still suffer from another issue - device specificity.  How many Android apps are specifically for phones?  How many are specifically for tablets?  How many are actually hardware-neutral?

Device-specificity (in terms of apps) is specifically prohibited by the TOS for Google Play for developers - yet the number of apps that refuse to install an any device that is NOT a specific type of device, or even a specific device, is the vast majority of apps.  I find that utterly inexcusable; however, apparently, Google does not care, because app count is, at least to Google, more important than app quality.

 

iOS is, at least, far better than Android in the cross-compatibility scheme - however, you're still locked into a cage.  You can't take iOS apps to OS X any more (you could if writing to older versions of iOS - however, with the changes required for compatibility with newer versions of iOS, such cross-compatibility isn't there any more).  On top of that, iPads are pricier than the original Surface was at launch (let alone Surface now after the price cuts).  A cage is STILL a cage - however, the iOS cage is better gilded than that of Android; further, it doesn't suffer from the cross-device compatibility issues that Android STILL has, even after the code merge that is Android 4.x.

 

WindowsRT, and the ModernUI/RT API, is, by and large, cross-compatible between Windows 8 and RT - you don't have just *similar* apps between the two, by and large; they are the SAME apps - therefore, there is zero learning curve at all, given identical hardware support.  That puts ModernUI/RT on-level with iOS, not Android, as far as app quality goes - where iOS excels (app count) is due entirely to it having been around longer.  Windows 8 goes beyond RT in offering pretty much unfettered access to the entirety of the Win32 application and game base - including better compatibility with the software of that base than even Windows 7, which had been THE master of Win32 backward compatibility.  Where ModernUI/RT is trailing iOS is app count - not app quality.  That is something only time can fix.

 

The advantage for Android is price - period.

The advantage for iOS is better app quality than Android, at a cost of a lower app count than Android (but higher than RT/ModernUI), and a higher price than either.

The advantage for RT is iOS-type app quality at a price cheaper than iOS; however, RT costs more than Android and has a lower app count than either.

The advantage for Windows 8 (yes, it has several) is complete (and utter) compatibility with the Windows 7 software (and hardware) base, along with (if you want) being able to run most (if not all) of the RT API apps.  The choice is up to you - you don't HAVE to run any ModernUI/RT apps.  The disadvantage for ModernUI is the same as that for RT - lower app count than either Android or iOS.

 

Where is your dispute with what I have just outlined?

[moeburn]

Tell me - exactly what is better about the Android ecosystem?  App quality?  App count?

If you mean the latter (app count) your point is quite valid, and something nobody disputes.  However, app quality is quite a different kettle of fish.

App quality in general (including, if not especially, on Google Play) is, to put it bluntly, worse - FAR worse - than the Windows 8/RT App Store.  In fact, it's worse than the iOS App Store.

Further, both Android and iOS (and their apps) still suffer from another issue - device specificity.  How many Android apps are specifically for phones?  How many are specifically for tablets?  How many are actually hardware-neutral?

Device-specificity (in terms of apps) is specifically prohibited by the TOS for Google Play for developers - yet the number of apps that refuse to install an any device that is NOT a specific type of device, or even a specific device, is the vast majority of apps.  I find that utterly inexcusable; however, apparently, Google does not care, because app count is, at least to Google, more important than app quality.

 

iOS is, at least, far better than Android in the cross-compatibility scheme - however, you're still locked into a cage.  You can't take iOS apps to OS X any more (you could if writing to older versions of iOS - however, with the changes required for compatibility with newer versions of iOS, such cross-compatibility isn't there any more).  On top of that, iPads are pricier than the original Surface was at launch (let alone Surface now after the price cuts).  A cage is STILL a cage - however, the iOS cage is better gilded than that of Android; further, it doesn't suffer from the cross-device compatibility issues that Android STILL has, even after the code merge that is Android 4.x.

 

WindowsRT, and the ModernUI/RT API, is, by and large, cross-compatible between Windows 8 and RT - you don't have just *similar* apps between the two, by and large; they are the SAME apps - therefore, there is zero learning curve at all, given identical hardware support.  That puts ModernUI/RT on-level with iOS, not Android, as far as app quality goes - where iOS excels (app count) is due entirely to it having been around longer.  Windows 8 goes beyond RT in offering pretty much unfettered access to the entirety of the Win32 application and game base - including better compatibility with the software of that base than even Windows 7, which had been THE master of Win32 backward compatibility.  Where ModernUI/RT is trailing iOS is app count - not app quality.  That is something only time can fix.

 

The advantage for Android is price - period.

The advantage for iOS is better app quality than Android, at a cost of a lower app count than Android (but higher than RT/ModernUI), and a higher price than either.

The advantage for RT is iOS-type app quality at a price cheaper than iOS; however, RT costs more than Android and has a lower app count than either.

The advantage for Windows 8 (yes, it has several) is complete (and utter) compatibility with the Windows 7 software (and hardware) base, along with (if you want) being able to run most (if not all) of the RT API apps.  The choice is up to you - you don't HAVE to run any ModernUI/RT apps.  The disadvantage for ModernUI is the same as that for RT - lower app count than either Android or iOS.

 

Where is your dispute with what I have just outlined?

 

Did you mention the fact that android can install off-market apps, and has a built-in feature ("dev mode") for rooting your device, while MS has patched every exploit found to install off-market apps and root the device?  I ask if you mentioned it because I didn't read the whole post.

[yowanvista]

The real problem with Windows 8.x is the fact that Microsoft thinks that essential options must be buried deep in the system. Safe mode is a clear example, clearly Microsoft shot itself in the foot while trying to copy the closed Apple ecosystem strategy. They should have refined the win32 API for touch systems instead of forcing the metro garbage on everyone, the Windows 8 Store is barely even comparable to the App Store, the amount of junk apps is simply too high.

[moeburn]

Windows 8 made me switch to Linux.  Windows 7 ran okay on my netbook, but I was so exited by how fast Windows 8 ran, I couldn't wait to install it on my netbook!  But the amount of extra time spent navigating the new UI (after I had learned where everything was) and removed features made the net speed increase 0.  The netbook couldn't run any bleeding-edge 3D games or video editing studios anyway, and that's the only thing Windows has on Linux right now.  For surfing the web, watching downloaded videos, doing video chat with the built-in webcam, Lubuntu Linux's speed has Windows beat.

 

Plus it supports my 64-bit Intel Atom 550 with only 1GB of RAM, Windows needs 2GB for 64bit.  :)  Oh, and Windows 8 doesn't even support the 1024x600 netbook resolution; wtf, I thought Windows 8 was designed for tablets and phones?  My Atrix only has 960x540, like the iPhone 4, are you telling me Windows can't run on their screens?

[COKid]

Windows 8 made me switch to Linux.

 

Same here. I've been a loyal Windows fan since the early '90s, but recently got fed up with it. The problem I had was Windows Update related, both in Windows 7 & 8. I refuse to install dozens of updates one at a time just to maybe get them to go through without a "failed" notification from Windows Update. I know no operating system is perfect and programs will probably crash or not work as expected from time to time (I do run image backups daily), but I don't know, I guess when it happens with an open source program, I give it more latitude. I "should" be able to do a clean install of Windows, run Windows Update straight away, and have all updates install flawlessly. That is simply not the case on the multiple computers I own. Hell, Windows 7 on a clean drive for me has over 140 updates initially. If I try installing multiple updates at once or take the time to install them one by one (tedious indeed), eventually it will fail. Same story on Windows 8. Are these not tested beforehand? This is like Amateur Hour.

 

So for the last couple of weeks, I've been trying out a few different Linux distros. I'm leaning towards Mint over Ubuntu. I install them, and they update properly, without error, the first time. I am a total noob when it comes to Linux, but when things just work out of the box, that's huge to me.

 

Funny how a person's opinion changes over time. I never thought I would use Linux, and for a time Wine will be a must for some of my favorite programs. But I can't tell you how refreshing it is to be using Linux. And with so many distros out there, I feel like a kid in a candy store!

 

Have a great day and thanks for reading this.

[Bugballou]

You will be assimilated, resistance is futile...

[x-scratch]

yeah i hate it so i went full blown linux

[myxomatosis]

Personaly, I like the desktop part of Windows 8. The Start Screen is a piece of rotten sh? though. Thanks to Start8/ClassicShell: it makes Windows 8 a usable OS, where Microsoft failed

[SnowRanger13]

Win8 + startisback = perfect. Better experience than Win7

 

http://startisback.com/

[srbeen]

Heres my take on windows 8.

 

From a technical standpoint, its damn good. Best work MS or likely any OS vendor has likely done to date, no questions asked. (remember OSX is tailored to specific hardware where windows runs on nearly all hardware) A ton of under the hood changes that speeds things up enough you actually can notice from any previous windows versions.

 

From a users standpoint, its horrid at best. This is 90% due to the premature metroUI force, and 10% due to losing the windows start button. menus are mudded and clunky, who the world thought hotcorners/sides would be a good idea with a KB/mouse!? interface hides clickable buttons as ordinary text, there seems to be a dual environment your programs run in so you may lose where running programs are. These are easily remidied but the massive UI change and heavily enforced signature checks mean some things (mainly USB to serial devices in my experience) cease to work if you have wrote you own drivers/serial software for them, as they detect as USB devices instead of standard serial port (VM with i7 virtuliaztion to the rescue!)

 

Most people who hate it spent 5 minutes at best buy trying it out on a $300 acer laptop. I initially hated it but once I 'classic shelled' it to work like windows 7 I found it to be better in almost all regards, minus the rare dealings with metroUI menus and the serial driver/software issue I pointed out above.

[moeburn]

Same here. I've been a loyal Windows fan since the early '90s, but recently got fed up with it. The problem I had was Windows Update related, both in Windows 7 & 8. I refuse to install dozens of updates one at a time just to maybe get them to go through without a "failed" notification from Windows Update. I know no operating system is perfect and programs will probably crash or not work as expected from time to time (I do run image backups daily), but I don't know, I guess when it happens with an open source program, I give it more latitude. I "should" be able to do a clean install of Windows, run Windows Update straight away, and have all updates install flawlessly. That is simply not the case on the multiple computers I own. Hell, Windows 7 on a clean drive for me has over 140 updates initially. If I try installing multiple updates at once or take the time to install them one by one (tedious indeed), eventually it will fail. Same story on Windows 8. Are these not tested beforehand? This is like Amateur Hour.

 

So for the last couple of weeks, I've been trying out a few different Linux distros. I'm leaning towards Mint over Ubuntu. I install them, and they update properly, without error, the first time. I am a total noob when it comes to Linux, but when things just work out of the box, that's huge to me.

 

Funny how a person's opinion changes over time. I never thought I would use Linux, and for a time Wine will be a must for some of my favorite programs. But I can't tell you how refreshing it is to be using Linux. And with so many distros out there, I feel like a kid in a candy store!

 

Have a great day and thanks for reading this.

 

So, you've been trying to install individual updates one-at-a-time to figure out which update was causing the error?  If Windows is stupid enough to not give you info on which update failed, it will definitely be in the Windows Event Viewer.  You can find all sorts of secret info in there.  I found out that every time I plug a USB stick in, Windows tests it for random access speed, and saves this speed info in the event viewer.  I would have liked to have a dialog displaying those speed test results pop up, instead of autorun...

 

Also, for a desktop PC, I'd highly reccomend Mint.  I actually tried it at first, and the only reason I switched to Lubuntu was because it's a netbook, and Lubuntu is designed for low-spec netbooks and the like, so is slightly faster.

[startscreennope]

I'm sorry but I don't have much interest in arguing Android, Win RT, or iOS. However I've never had problems finding good apps or games for my Android phone. As for why Windows Phones and Tablets are selling so poorly, it could be a number of factors. It's rather obvious why Win 8 is so unpopular, on the other hand.

The main point is that MS threw desktop users under the bus with the less efficient, less productive, less functional start screen UI. The result was ****ed off desktop users, plummeting PC sales, and stagnant non-OEM uptake of Win 8.

 

They managed to shoot themselves in both feet by crippling PC/Windows sales while their phones/tablets continue to stagnate. Oh and don't forget the Xbox One DRM debacle - I think the only reason they backed away from that one was they realized they only had two feet to shoot and had ran out.

Win 8 has a negligible performance increase and has better energy efficiency options, sure.

Oh and by the way, check the comments section of any Win 8 related news article here or elsewhere on the internet: there are still delusional posters who think Win 8 somehow has a more functional UI than XP or 7, still insulting users, etc.

 

Here's what MS can do to make Win 8.1/start screen more functional:

http://www.tbstactics.com/2013/07/10-things-ms-can-improve-on-with.html

[moeburn]

 there are still delusional posters who think Win 8 somehow has a more functional UI than XP or 7, still insulting users, etc.

 

Kinda hypocritical of you to point out people's insulting attitude, and call them 'delusional' in the process.  Might wanna stand firm on your own ground before you go poking at other people's feet.

 

But for the record, I am on your side, I agree with most of what you said, and many Windows 8 supporters are just playing the contrarian game.

[Dot Matrix]

Tell me - exactly what is better about the Android ecosystem?  App quality?  App count?

If you mean the latter (app count) your point is quite valid, and something nobody disputes.  However, app quality is quite a different kettle of fish.

App quality in general (including, if not especially, on Google Play) is, to put it bluntly, worse - FAR worse - than the Windows 8/RT App Store.  In fact, it's worse than the iOS App Store.

Further, both Android and iOS (and their apps) still suffer from another issue - device specificity.  How many Android apps are specifically for phones?  How many are specifically for tablets?  How many are actually hardware-neutral?

Device-specificity (in terms of apps) is specifically prohibited by the TOS for Google Play for developers - yet the number of apps that refuse to install an any device that is NOT a specific type of device, or even a specific device, is the vast majority of apps.  I find that utterly inexcusable; however, apparently, Google does not care, because app count is, at least to Google, more important than app quality.

 

iOS is, at least, far better than Android in the cross-compatibility scheme - however, you're still locked into a cage.  You can't take iOS apps to OS X any more (you could if writing to older versions of iOS - however, with the changes required for compatibility with newer versions of iOS, such cross-compatibility isn't there any more).  On top of that, iPads are pricier than the original Surface was at launch (let alone Surface now after the price cuts).  A cage is STILL a cage - however, the iOS cage is better gilded than that of Android; further, it doesn't suffer from the cross-device compatibility issues that Android STILL has, even after the code merge that is Android 4.x.

 

WindowsRT, and the ModernUI/RT API, is, by and large, cross-compatible between Windows 8 and RT - you don't have just *similar* apps between the two, by and large; they are the SAME apps - therefore, there is zero learning curve at all, given identical hardware support.  That puts ModernUI/RT on-level with iOS, not Android, as far as app quality goes - where iOS excels (app count) is due entirely to it having been around longer.  Windows 8 goes beyond RT in offering pretty much unfettered access to the entirety of the Win32 application and game base - including better compatibility with the software of that base than even Windows 7, which had been THE master of Win32 backward compatibility.  Where ModernUI/RT is trailing iOS is app count - not app quality.  That is something only time can fix.

 

The advantage for Android is price - period.

The advantage for iOS is better app quality than Android, at a cost of a lower app count than Android (but higher than RT/ModernUI), and a higher price than either.

The advantage for RT is iOS-type app quality at a price cheaper than iOS; however, RT costs more than Android and has a lower app count than either.

The advantage for Windows 8 (yes, it has several) is complete (and utter) compatibility with the Windows 7 software (and hardware) base, along with (if you want) being able to run most (if not all) of the RT API apps.  The choice is up to you - you don't HAVE to run any ModernUI/RT apps.  The disadvantage for ModernUI is the same as that for RT - lower app count than either Android or iOS.

 

Where is your dispute with what I have just outlined?

 

 

You're replying to a troll. Just, FYI.

[cooky560 Veteran]

Even with the Surface RT price drop you can get an Android tablet with the same specs for cheaper, with a better software ecosystem.

 

Yes this is related to Windows 8 because one of their main strategies for pushing the less efficient, less productive, less functional start screen on desktop users is to make them more likely to buy MS tablets and phones. Not working. All MS has managed to do is **** off their existing customers while failing to attract the iOS/Android crowd.

Let's try and keep the trolling to a minimum please, this topic is about the Windows 8 experience, not Android.

[moeburn]

Let's try and keep the trolling to a minimum please, this topic is about the Windows 8 experience, not Android.

 

cooky, I'm all for a calm, civil discussion, but isn't talking about Android part of the Windows 8 experience discussion?  I mean, how can you talk about the Windows 8 experience without a point of reference to compare it to?  Not to mention the fact that Android is one of their main competitors, and therefore one of the main reasons the Windows 8 experience has changed so much.

[startscreennope]

Can't argue with valid points? Call names! Perfectly in line with the rest of Dot Matrix's fallacious posts. Right up there with "it's newer, so it's better".

It is not at all trolling to point out the link between the Start Screen being forced on Windows users and MS's desperate, failing attempt to raise their miniscule Phone/Tablet marketshare over Android/iOS.

 

It's less related to point out the reasons why MS phones/tablets are failing, but still relevant imo as it shows they have a lot more problems than forcing people to use their touch UI on the desktop.

[moeburn]

Can't argue with valid points? Call names! Perfectly in line with the rest of Dot Matrix's fallacious posts. Right up there with "it's newer, so it's better".

It is not at all trolling to point out the link between the Start Screen being forced on Windows users and MS's desperate, failing attempt to raise their miniscule Phone/Tablet marketshare over Android/iOS.

 

You have valid points there, but you are certainly fanning the flames too.  It's hard for me to do as well, but unfortunately since Cooky has singled you out, now you have to be the mature one and end the back-and-forth between you and Dot Troll.

[Dashel]

Someone's trolling radar is horribly mis-calibrated.

[Dot Matrix]

Can't argue with valid points? Call names! Perfectly in line with the rest of Dot Matrix's fallacious posts. Right up there with "it's newer, so it's better".

 

 

 

There were no "valid" points in your post. You said:

 

"Even with the Surface RT price drop you can get an Android tablet with the same specs for cheaper, with a better software ecosystem.

 

Yes this is related to Windows 8 because one of their main strategies for pushing the less efficient, less productive, less functional start screen on desktop users is to make them more likely to buy MS tablets and phones. Not working. All MS has managed to do is **** off their existing customers while failing to attract the iOS/Android crowd."

 

Not one statement here is true. Microsoft moved to Metro to unify their platforms, first of all. Second, In the middle of this rant you managed to swear like an angry drunk (which is frowned upon here on Neowin), while spewing more nonsense that isn't even true. I know many folks who moved to Windows 8 without issues, and even prefer the OS to Windows 7. And, yes, many of those people are my classmates who are about to enter the job market as system admins, and IT support staff. Hell, many of our labs run the OS as a primary.

[moeburn]

There were no "valid" points in your post. You said:

 

"Even with the Surface RT price drop you can get an Android tablet with the same specs for cheaper, with a better software ecosystem.

 

Yes this is related to Windows 8 because one of their main strategies for pushing the less efficient, less productive, less functional start screen on desktop users is to make them more likely to buy MS tablets and phones. Not working. All MS has managed to do is **** off their existing customers while failing to attract the iOS/Android crowd."

 

Not one statement here is true. Microsoft moved to Metro to unify their platforms, first of all. Second, In the middle of this rant you managed to swear like an angry drunk (which is frowned upon here on Neowin), while spewing more nonsense that isn't even true. I know many folks who moved to Windows 8 without issues, and even prefer the OS to Windows 7. And, yes, many of those people are my classmates who are about to enter the job market as system admins, and IT support staff. Hell, many of our labs run the OS as a primary.

 

Now that is some professional trolling right there.  Calling names like "angry drunk", saying his posts are "spewing more nonsense", I don't think anyone could flame-bait better than Dot Matrix over here!

[PGHammer]

Did you mention the fact that android can install off-market apps, and has a built-in feature ("dev mode") for rooting your device, while MS has patched every exploit found to install off-market apps and root the device?  I ask if you mentioned it because I didn't read the whole post.

Most of those aren't issues for the majority of users - how many Android users root their devices first off, and second, why do the vast majority of rooters do so? (I do follow the Android forums - not just here on Neowin, either - the vast majority of Android users that DO root are seeking one of two things - a de-bloated experience due to too much bloatware, such as Motoblur or HTC Sense, OR they are seeking a newer version of Android than is currently available for their device.  Neither was something I mentioned, due to it not being an issue for the majority of Android users - however, the issues I DID mention affect ALL Android users, whether they root or not.)

[PGHammer]

I'm sorry but I don't have much interest in arguing Android, Win RT, or iOS. However I've never had problems finding good apps or games for my Android phone. As for why Windows Phones and Tablets are selling so poorly, it could be a number of factors. It's rather obvious why Win 8 is so unpopular, on the other hand.

The main point is that MS threw desktop users under the bus with the less efficient, less productive, less functional start screen UI. The result was ****ed off desktop users, plummeting PC sales, and stagnant non-OEM uptake of Win 8.

 

They managed to shoot themselves in both feet by crippling PC/Windows sales while their phones/tablets continue to stagnate. Oh and don't forget the Xbox One DRM debacle - I think the only reason they backed away from that one was they realized they only had two feet to shoot and had ran out.

Win 8 has a negligible performance increase and has better energy efficiency options, sure.

Oh and by the way, check the comments section of any Win 8 related news article here or elsewhere on the internet: there are still delusional posters who think Win 8 somehow has a more functional UI than XP or 7, still insulting users, etc.

 

Here's what MS can do to make Win 8.1/start screen more functional:

http://www.tbstactics.com/2013/07/10-things-ms-can-improve-on-with.html

I am referring to Android TABLETS (which WindowsRT competes heads-up with), not phones.  Most Android apps won't even INSTALL on tablets - which is, in fact, my biggest beef with Android.  It has pretended that there is cross-device app compatibility between phones and tablets - however, as long as developers are writing apps for a specific device type (phones for example), cross-device app compatibility is a joke.  You have to change some (but not much) code to migrate between Windows Phone and WinRT or ModernUI - in either direction.  However, that is something that Microsoft has explicitly spelled out - and it's far from difficult for developers to do.  Finally - on this subject - unlike Android, there are completely separate App Stores for RT, ModernUI, and Windows Phone - the various app stores for Android, however, are generic, and are generally NOT device-specific.  Android promises cross-device compatibility - which plain and simply isn't there, and as long as developers write device-specific (or even device-type specific) code it won't be there, either.  That is, plain and simple, a broken promise to the Android user community, and I have to blame Google for it.

 

From what it sounds like, you are actually using a phone as a substitute for a tablet.  Gee - I wonder why.

[Order_66]

Shame on the admins for allowing this thread that is clearly and deliberated created to incite flame wars and trolling to even exist for more than 2 seconds.

[moeburn]

Most of those aren't issues for the majority of users - how many Android users root their devices first off, and second, why do the vast majority of rooters do so? (I do follow the Android forums - not just here on Neowin, either - the vast majority of Android users that DO root are seeking one of two things - a de-bloated experience due to too much bloatware, such as Motoblur or HTC Sense, OR they are seeking a newer version of Android than is currently available for their device.  Neither was something I mentioned, due to it not being an issue for the majority of Android users - however, the issues I DID mention affect ALL Android users, whether they root or not.)

 

Okay, what about off-market apps?  Lots of people like to install apks they downloaded, and you can only do that on Android at the moment, without rooting.  

 

And as for rooting, I can't speak for the majority of users, but I personally know some non-savvy casual phone users who had to root their device specifically because of preinstalled bloatware taking up too much space, like you mentioned, or to be able to install apps to the SD card, because the built-in one isn't big enough.  I think it might be more common than you think.

I am referring to Android TABLETS (which WindowsRT competes heads-up with), not phones.  Most Android apps won't even INSTALL on tablets

 

I've been using an Android phone for 1 year and an Android Tablet for 3 years.  I've never found an app that couldn't install on both.