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Is Windows 8 an indictment of OS X, Linux, all other Desktop OSes?

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MorganX    1,044

You are confusing Windows 8 and WindowsRT, first off. It is RT that is the all-ModernUI all-the-time true niche OS (it has no compatibility, backward or otherwise, with Win32 applications) - Windows 8, on the other hand, is a true superset OS (the lineage for what Windows 8 is starts with Windows XP Media Center Edition 2002, continues through MCE 2005, Vista Ultimate, 7 Ultimate, and now Windows 8). Windows 8, unlike RT, has all the Win32 application compatibility that Windows 7 does *and* can run ModernUI apps, games, etc. Maximum choice, and with the same hardware requirements as Windows 7. If a Win32 application suits you, use it - if a ModernUI app suits you, use that. The choice is up to you - not Microsoft.

Both iOS and even Android have another issue - too many developers writing device-specific software. Android's code-merge (between the smartphone-targeting 2.x and tablet-targeting 3.x) was supposed to fix this - however, the developers either didn't get the memo or they aren't testing their code properly for multiple devices with only an OS in common. I have two Android VMs (BlueStacks and AndroVM), and I can't even maintain a common software pool between them because of application-compatibility issues - how much worse is it for folks with a real Android smartphone and an Android tablet?

If anything, WindowsRT is very much an indictment of Android - unlike Google, Microsoft enforces the policies regarding device-specific hardware in the RT App Store. While Android has more apps, application quality (and the lack of cross-device compatibility in all too many cases) is very much an issue with Android - app count is not everything. App quality does count - and right now, that is something that Android has an issue with.

Windows 8 is, in a way, an indictment of *Apple* - not just OS X or iOS, but the Tim Cook Apple Philosophy. Windows 8 has followed behind Windows 7 in continuing to expand the compatible-hardware pool (which Microsoft has been doing with Windows NT from the beginning), while the OS X hardware pool has largely remained static - all the real hardware action has been with iOS.

However, the biggest indictment Windows 8 hands out is of users - almost all of them, regardless of what OS they use. As much as we keep saying we want things to be different, when a company (be it Microsoft, Apple, Google, or a Linux distribution, desktop environment, game developer, etc) actually dares do so, we cringe, criticize, and basically slamdance the offender until they retreat and regress. We say one thing, but in practice, all too many of us want the opposite. Basically, we sure talk brave for a bunch of anti-change cowards. (Notice that I am not talking specifically about Windows 8 - I've seen it outside of Windows, too.)

Great post!

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vcfan    2,338

This doesn't line up with what other sites are posting. They give Windows 8 a 3.82% share.

netapplications which has windows 8 on 3.82% also has windows 7 more than 10% less that statcounter. both of them have windows 8 usage at around 10% of windows 7 usage though.

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Noir Angel    4,214

I'd say Windows 8 is just another manifestation of Microsoft's recent obsessive desire to compete with Apple and Google in every single market, rather than focusing on what they do well.

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+warwagon    13,026

1) The reason start menu replacements haven't sold better is because the average user has no idea they exist.

2) The argument of people that don't like change going to Mac OSX, isn't valid either, because at least in OSX all the core UI functionality isn't hidden to the user, so they will probably have an easier time adapting.

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Dashel    542

OS X's core UI functionality (lol)? You mean since they've never had anything close to the Start Menu/Taskbar combo and have had one systematic band-aid after another to fix that problem?

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xendrome    5,418

Interesting. Users who want to remain in the Desktop Environment, and keep the familiarities, are often chided as being resistant to change, living in the dark ages. Yet, the standard answer to the dearth of any full-blown applications built for the Modern UI is, run the millions of Win32 apps in the Desktop Environment.

Interesting.

Only the haters would think/say that, Microsoft didn't design the Modern UI to replace the desktop environment. If you believe that you are totally missing Microsoft point and mission of Windows 8. Microsoft needed to enter the portable/tablet market to compete direct with Apple and Google or else they were going to be so far behind the game it wasn't even funny. And if you have ever used Windows 7 or below on a tablet PC, it was a total joke trying to make it functionally useful, especially the keyboard. If you have actually tried Windows 8 on a tablet system, it is a complete godsend for functionality/use-ability.

You are confusing Windows 8 and WindowsRT, first off.

OP is confusing a lot of stuff in this thread, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but I think he/she should have done a lot more self-education/testing on the topic prior to posting a bunch of opinionated points. A lot are way off base. (Apples to Oranges)

100 million isn't as impressive when you consider how many more computer users there are now in 2013.

100 million = 100 million, no matter how many the total of computers users. Even if Microsoft makes $1 per license...

A sale is a sale.

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jakem1    1,610

1) The reason start menu replacements haven't sold better is because the average user has no idea they exist.

How do you know that?

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+warwagon    13,026

How do you know that?

Because I deal with the average user EVERYDAY. Most don't / didn't even known their keyboard has a windows key. Most when they want to go to facebook, they google it.

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jakem1    1,610

Because I deal with the average user EVERYDAY. Most don't / didn't even known their keyboard has a windows key.

You're still assuming that people would choose to buy a Start Menu replacement if they knew one existed. I can't see any reason to make that assumption.

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thomastmc    531

Because I deal with the average user EVERYDAY. Most don't / didn't even known their keyboard has a windows key. Most when they want to go to facebook, they google it.

Who are you working with?!? Do they know that they have a CTRL key or a number pad? Are these the kind of people who call support to find out what an F key is?

Don't hold up idiots as an example of the average user... it's an insult to humanity, or at least the average intelligence of whatever pond you're swimming in.

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+warwagon    13,026

Who are you working with?!? Do they know that they have a CTRL key or a number pad? Are these the kind of people who call support to find out what an F key is?

Don't hold up idiots as an example of the average user... it's an insult to humanity, or at least the average intelligence of whatever pond you're swimming in.

Oh i'm sure there will be a few more responses where someone says their customers have no idea about the windows key either, at least until they told them.

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Order_66    948

I like the start screen, if you use it for several months, you will notice its clearly a upgrade from the start menu!

If you have to use the start screen for several months before you can conclude that it's an upgrade over the start menu then clearly something is wrong with the start screen.

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thomastmc    531

Oh i'm sure there will be a few more responses where someone says their customers have no idea about the windows key either, at least until they told them.

Ya, everyone has stories of dealing with idiots. That doesn't mean that the average user is an idiot, just that idiots do exist... If your average user is an idiot, you're in a sad state of affairs.

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+warwagon    13,026

Ya, everyone has stories of dealing with idiots. That doesn't mean that the average user is an idiot, just that idiots do exist... If your average user is an idiot, you're in a sad state of affairs.

I just can't remember telling a customer to press the windows key and having them actually know where it was at. Why would they know? I mean how often would they ever use that key?

For anyone who wants to weigh in, here is a poll on the subject

Do people you give computer support to know they have a windows key?

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1151390-do-people-you-give-computer-support-to-know-they-have-a-windows-key/#entry595681204

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Order_66    948

Ya, everyone has stories of dealing with idiots. That doesn't mean that the average user is an idiot, just that idiots do exist... If your average user is an idiot, you're in a sad state of affairs.

Curious, have you ever worked in retail for a major computer store?

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thomastmc    531

Curious, have you ever worked in retail for a major computer store?

No, only corporate and on call / in house. My experience with store salesmen and Geek Squad or similar techs is that they don't know much more than the average user themselves.

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Order_66    948

No

I rest my case...

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thomastmc    531

I rest my case...

That's a pathetic case. It should be rested...

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Dashel    542

Only the haters would think/say that, Microsoft didn't design the Modern UI to replace the desktop environment. If you believe that you are totally missing Microsoft point and mission of Windows 8. Microsoft needed to enter the portable/tablet market to compete direct with Apple and Google or else they were going to be so far behind the game it wasn't even funny. And if you have ever used Windows 7 or below on a tablet PC, it was a total joke trying to make it functionally useful, especially the keyboard. If you have actually tried Windows 8 on a tablet system, it is a complete godsend for functionality/use-ability.

bull****. It's a unique bit of intellectual dishonesty coming from the apologists, as is the clarity from MS that there is any reason MUI couldn't compete with or replace the desktop environment or what that long term 'goal' is.

Additionally, the Win7 keyboard is the same one you'll be using when running Win8 desktop apps. Metro is the godsend for touch, but it if exists outside of the desktop, to Morgan's point, its pretty useless and hence the second step in the prevailing circular reasoning.

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Growled    3,880

Ya, everyone has stories of dealing with idiots. That doesn't mean that the average user is an idiot, just that idiots do exist... If your average user is an idiot, you're in a sad state of affairs.

I can tell you for a fact that it's a sad state of affairs.

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vcfan    2,338

Curious, have you ever worked in retail for a major computer store?

ive shopped at retail stores, and the guys working there most of the times are complete and utter idiots.

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adrynalyne    11,837

Only the haters would think/say that, Microsoft didn't design the Modern UI to replace the desktop environment. If you believe that you are totally missing Microsoft point and mission of Windows 8. Microsoft needed to enter the portable/tablet market to compete direct with Apple and Google or else they were going to be so far behind the game it wasn't even funny. And if you have ever used Windows 7 or below on a tablet PC, it was a total joke trying to make it functionally useful, especially the keyboard. If you have actually tried Windows 8 on a tablet system, it is a complete godsend for functionality/use-ability.

OP is confusing a lot of stuff in this thread, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but I think he/she should have done a lot more self-education/testing on the topic prior to posting a bunch of opinionated points. A lot are way off base. (Apples to Oranges)

100 million = 100 million, no matter how many the total of computers users. Even if Microsoft makes $1 per license...

A sale is a sale.

Which is irrelevant to what I said. Three years ago, 100 million = more of a user base than it does now. Therefore, if three years later you see the same sales trend, then less of your users are adopting. A lot less.

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MorganX    1,044

1- Only the haters would think/say that, Microsoft didn't design the Modern UI to replace the desktop environment ....

2- Microsoft needed to enter the portable/tablet market to compete direct with Apple and Google or else they were going to be so far behind the game it wasn't even funny.

3- OP is confusing a lot of stuff in this thread, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but I think he/she should have done a lot more self-education/testing on the topic prior to posting a bunch of opinionated points. A lot are way off base. (Apples to Oranges)

4- 100 million = 100 million, no matter how many the total of computers users. Even if Microsoft makes $1 per license...

A sale is a sale.

1) I don't think anyone argues that the Modern UI doesn't work on tablets. Most agree that's where it belongs and what it was designed for. My observation has been the vehemently pro Modern UI pundits have put forth the notion that the Modern UI is intended to supplant the Desktop Environment and WinRT/Win32. They may be right. Given where things are right now, there's no clear answer.

2) They are so far behind, lol. But not for lack of early opportunity.

3) Really, please feel free to bullet point what I'm confusing. I'd be interested and if I have I'll admit it. I don't think I have confused RT, I think RT itself is confused. While it does not run Win32, it's #1 application, Office 2013, runs in the desktop environment. PGHammer express his opinion well and I didn't feel the need to argue the point, it's gray anyway. I personally lean more toward's dangel's take on RT:

WindowsRT - I see as a cul de sac - it's there both to remind intel they suck at mobile parts (seems to be working..) and provide something as a stop gap solution to at least 'get them out there'.

4) If you're measuring $1's. If you're measuring a market of actual users that will encourage developers to dedicate significant resources to develop for WinRT at this time, maybe not. If they are OEM sales that will inevitably grow as it is what is bundled with new PCs, then it may not be a measure of uptake or enterprise deployment. It is contextually dependent on the position you are attempting to use the number to bolster.

Because I deal with the average user EVERYDAY. Most don't / didn't even known their keyboard has a windows key. Most when they want to go to facebook, they google it.

I agree with you but did this level of user even use the Start Menu to begin with?

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vcfan    2,338

Which is irrelevant to what I said. Three years ago, 100 million = more of a user base than it does now. Therefore, if three years later you see the same sales trend, then less of your users are adopting. A lot less.

it isn't as clear cut as you want to make yourself believe. there are many factors to consider. first, this product,even before release was doom and gloomed to death by you, and many people in the 'tech community'. it was said to be something "absolutely no one wants anything to do with". it was said to be the death of the company making the product. second, according to many, vista was a complete failure and a mess. windows 7 came in and fixed all these problems. windows 8 on the other hand does not come in to fix problems with windows 7. it comes in with drastic changes to change the face of computing. completely different purposes. this isn't an easy sell,especially when the product is very V1, never been done before, includes new development platform and application framework that begins with no advantage over the last product because there is zero new software yet. this is where the massive userbase that Microsoft has been building for decades comes through. for you, or anyone else to say these numbers are not impressive is laughable. even if they did half of these sales it would still be impressive. but the problem with some of you guys is that you cant admit you were completely wrong, not only wrong, but not even close. you shouldn't even consider buying a lottery ticket,thats how bad it is.

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MorganX    1,044

Ya, everyone has stories of dealing with idiots. That doesn't mean that the average user is an idiot, just that idiots do exist... If your average user is an idiot, you're in a sad state of affairs.

There are very intelligent people who use computers to perform specific tasks and expect them to be as transparent as possible. They don't believe they are paid to know computers, IT is paid to provide them technical solutions that allow them to do more, faster, without being obtrusive.

In many ways, the Start Page is far superior to the Start Menu for these types of users.

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