George Zimmerman has been found not guilty!

[heatlesssun]

 I'm curious. Why do you feel that there would have been less media attention to this case if Trayvon had been white?

 

Because the matter of racial profiling wouldn't be part of it. I know, Zimmerman is Hispanic, at least half, and maybe there would have been some issue there for some folks. 

[Praetor]

Of course not. But again, it does come back to the matter of Martin becoming a suspect immediately in Zimmerman's eyes. How does the cliche go, first impressions are lasting impressions? I think this case is a perfect example. 

 

So he, while doing his job, saw a guy in the rain looking and staring, having a suspicious conduct in a neighborhood that had been previously been robbed? Black or not, he had a suspicious conduct and Zimmerman reported that in the 911 call.

[heatlesssun]

i agree that Zimmerman could had better discernment of the situation and probably he regrets that day happened; but i wasn't me who was in that situation, but he and Trayvon. But that's not the case in here; in the face of the law he did no wrong and if i was in the same situation as he was, i could not possibly say i could do better.

 

So the teenager has to do the thinking for both the armed adult and himself in that situation. If it had happened to me at that age I don't know what I would have done either. Probably run, and yeah, black kid running in the neighborhood, no one is going to think that's suspicious. 

So he, while doing his job, saw a guy in the rain looking and staring, having a suspicious conduct in a neighborhood that had been previously been robbed? Black or not, he had a suspicious conduct and Zimmerman reported that in the 911 call.

 

It was NOT Zimmerman's job to follow anyone. And it was the non-emergency number that Zimmerman called because even though he thought Martin was suspicious he was not committing an act of crime, or at least I don't think 911 would appreciate the line being use to call in a kid walking across lawns.

[Praetor]

So the teenager has to do the thinking for both the armed adult and himself in that situation.

 

It was NOT Zimmerman's job to follow anyone. And it was the non-emergency number that Zimmerman called because even though he thought Martin was suspicious he was not committing an act of crime, or at least I don't think 911 would appreciate the line being use to call in a kid walking across lawns.

 

i don't understand what you mean in the first paragraph.

 

You are right about the number, it was the non-emergency police number he called, sorry for that. But he also didn't commit a crime either by following Trayvon, so...

[LakeRat]

I appreciate what you are saying here and give you credit for at least trying to look at the issue beyond a certain view. And being a black man in my 40's with parents that grew up under Jim Crow in the Southern US at the height of those laws, yes, I feel much less safe. If a white person starts following and we somehow cross paths even if I am doing nothing, I have to assume that they think I am a criminal. That's what Zimmerman thought and he killed the person he thought that of and is now free. For all I know someone if just trying to see if they can be Zimmerman #2. 

 

As far as I am concerned, yes, if you're black in this country you now have less protection under the law because your race makes you a target and the law doesn't account for the fact that if you are black or mistaken for black that confrontations can be started by your skin color. Trayvon Martin would be alive today if he were white and certainly the media would have had far less interest in this case if Trayvon Martin were white and Zimmerman certainly wouldn't be the poster child of the right wing for for killing a white teenager. 

 

Zimmerman will profit financially in all of this this now that he is free of ever being criminal over this case.

 

Like that he saw and black teenager and assumed he was a criminal the first time that Zimmerman laid eyes on him? That's not far fetched, that's what happened and there's an audio recording of if. 

 

 I was going over your previous posts in this thread and found this. So, I asked you a question that I could have found your answer to. Sorry about that.

 

 I would like to comment on your statement about skin color being a factor in confrontations.

 

 Here is a link to the FBI's data on homicides for 2011:

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6

 

Murder

Race and Sex of Victim by Race and Sex of Offender, 2011

[single victim/single offender]

• Download Excel

Race of victim Total Race of offender Sex of offender White Black Other Unknown Male Female Unknown White 3,172 2,630 448 33 61 2,810 301 61 Black 2,695 193 2,447 9 46 2,385 264 46 Other race 180 45 36 99 155 25 Unknown race 84 36 27 3 18 63 3 18 Sex of victim Total Race of offender Sex of offender White Black Other Unknown Male Female Unknown Male 4,304 1,834 2,289 87 94 3,760 450 94 Female 1,743 1,034 642 54 13 1,590 140 13 Unknown sex 84 36 27 3 18 63 3 18

 

What I find interesting is that, statistically speaking, whites are far more likely to be murdered by whites. And blacks are far more likely to be murdered by blacks.

 

Basically, the Martin/Zimmerman case is not a good example of what is really going on in the US.

 

 

Crap, the table formatting didn't stay when I posted. Click the link instead.

[Wyn6]

No he did not start a confrontation. He was approach, then attacked by this dude. You're not a medical examiner. The expert medical examiner corroborated Zimmerman's story about the fight.

I have to chime back in here. You keep saying this. The only witness that has spoken to these events is George Zimmerman. All other witnesses either heard or saw the confrontation before or after it began. Jenteal testified that she heard Trayvon say, "Get off. Get off," before what sounded like the phone falling in "wet grass". If this is true, wouldn't that indicate that Zimmerman either attacked Trayvon first or may have gained the upperhand?

 

The neighbor (can't recall the name) testified he "thought" he saw what looked to be Trayvon on top and George on the bottom. Providing this is true, this gives us no indication as to who started the confrontation. We can only make inferences from given testimony, none of which we can definitively say is factual. The only fact we know is that we don't have ALL the facts. The only person that truly knows what happened that night is Zimmerman.

[Praetor]

I have to chime back in here. You keep saying this. The only witness that has spoken to these events is George Zimmerman. All other witnesses either heard or saw the confrontation before or after it began. Jenteal testified that she heard Trayvon say, "Get off. Get off," before what sounded like the phone falling in "wet grass". If this is true, wouldn't that indicate that Zimmerman either attacked Trayvon first or may have gained the upperhand?

 

The neighbor (can't recall the name) testified he "thought" he saw what looked to be Trayvon on top and George on the bottom. Providing this is true, this gives us no indication as to who started the confrontation. We can only make inferences from given testimony, none of which we can definitively say is factual. The only fact we know is that we don't have ALL the facts. The only person that truly knows what happened that night is Zimmerman.

 

From what i understood after the shot Zimmerman went on top to "secure the aggressor" (or whatever it's called the technical movement); if a bystander saw just that it might had the impression that he was on the top the whole time.

 

"The only person that truly knows what happened that night is Zimmerman." And Trayvon; unfortunately he's dead.

[DocM]

So the teenager has to do the thinking for both the armed adult and himself in that situation. If it had happened to me at that age I don't know what I would have done either. Probably run, and yeah, black kid running in the neighborhood, no one is going to think that's suspicious.

Anyone running at night in an area that had recent breakin issues is going to he looked on as suspicious, especially if they cut through behind buildings etc. Doesn't matter whst color they are, and since 90% plus of crime on blacks is committed by other blacks you have far more to fear from each other than from anyone else. Get your priorities straight.

It was NOT Zimmerman's job to follow anyone. And it was the non-emergency number that Zimmerman called because even though he thought Martin was suspicious he was not committing an act of crime, or at least I don't think 911 would appreciate the line being use to call in a kid walking across lawns.

Again, for the upteenth time in this thread, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO FOLLOW SOMEONE especially if they are acting suspiciously so when the cops show up you have an answer to the inevitable question "did you see where they went?" Everyone has an equal right to the streets and to keep their sonar pinging.

The question as to 911 or non-emergency line isn't straightforward, that depends on the jurisdiction. They aren't all the same.

And as for "Zimmerman didn't follow Neighborhood Watch rules", HE DIDN'T HAVE TO because he wasn't on a NW patrol - those are scheduled and they work in pairs. Zimmerman had gone out on an errand and just happened to see something suspicious - Martin's behavior. This does NOT automatically put him "on NW duty" or remove his rights, and since he wasn't on patrol he had every right to carry his firearm because most street crimes (muggings etc.) happen at night. Duh.

[libertas83]

I've been black all of my life of 45 years. Telling a grown black man, particularly one on the larger side that they don't get profiled is ignorant as well. I don't know with certainty that's what happened here but again, why would Zimmerman start calling a complete stranger an a-hole? That these punks always get away? I certainly doubt we have said that about a little old white lady or even a little old black lady. He saw a young black kid and thought he has a thug, just like many of you have determined about Martin. But of course Zimmerman hadn't dug into all of his social media before making that determination. 

 

And saying that as a white guy that I have never been profiled as well is just as ignorant. In College, I was targeted a few times by campus police because I was a "typical" college kid. Go watch TruTV and see how profiling teens and colleges work. You act like as a black man you are the only one that gets targeted, give me a break. I get that 30-40 yrs ago it was a different time and racial profiling and harassment were more common. These days, its mostly because of Culture and how you act. If you come up to me with your pants hanging past your butt then I'm going to stereotype you from the get go. Will I treat you bad or be racist to you, no. Big differences between stereotyping and being racist.

 

Another example, white people are put into this class like we are all alike. Michele Obama did that in her thesis in college thinking white people acting preppy was "white culture" as a whole and was out to take out black culture in Princeton. Hello, there are goths, punks, skas, ravers, preps, nerds, jocks, and all kinds of other people. Stop thinking color means anything. What matters is how you act, and how you treat people. You act like a pain in the butt, people will treat you like that. You act thuggish or dress thuggish people will treat you that way. Black culture used to be so good back in the day, blues and rock n roll, not this ghetto trash that you see today.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

In the United States of America, armed trigger-happy instigators are now protected.

 

It reminds of the U.S. foreign policy of picking up a fight with small nations by intimidating them and then parking warships in their harbour.

 

Juror: Zimmerman should have stayed in his car

[AWilliams87]

He's half Hispanic. But my point wasn't about Zimmerman, I'm simply saying that it's the particular circumstances of this case that's made is out to be what it became. Yes, race was the reason why, but not all cases of interracial crime come anywhere close to this, in fact, most never get any attention and are routine matters of justice.

 

I was reading the interview of juror B37. Initially there we're evenly split on the matter of guilt. Three were for not guilty, two for manslaughter and one on the 2nd degree murder charge. But they deliberated and eventually all agreed on the letter of the law. B37 said she didn't believe that race was of issue here, but with half of them split initially it would seem likely that a couple of them did and probably still do think that race was involved but that didn't have any bearing on the law.

 

It was a divisive case, the jurors did their job, I abide by the decision but even B37 said that Zimmerman exhibited bad judgment. People with guns and bad judgment are a deadly mix. I have no problem defending themselves but just strapping on a gun doesn't make you a good law enforcement officer. 

 

Of course not. But again, it does come back to the matter of Martin becoming a suspect immediately in Zimmerman's eyes. How does the cliche go, first impressions are lasting impressions? I think this case is a perfect example. 

Why do you continue to make stuff up dude? She said specially that she believed they all DID NOT BELIEVE race was a factor. Stop lying. http://youtu.be/LcdSZw2-C18?t=17m47s

I have to chime back in here. You keep saying this. The only witness that has spoken to these events is George Zimmerman. All other witnesses either heard or saw the confrontation before or after it began. Jenteal testified that she heard Trayvon say, "Get off. Get off," before what sounded like the phone falling in "wet grass". If this is true, wouldn't that indicate that Zimmerman either attacked Trayvon first or may have gained the upperhand?

 

The neighbor (can't recall the name) testified he "thought" he saw what looked to be Trayvon on top and George on the bottom. Providing this is true, this gives us no indication as to who started the confrontation. We can only make inferences from given testimony, none of which we can definitively say is factual. The only fact we know is that we don't have ALL the facts. The only person that truly knows what happened that night is Zimmerman.

Zimmerman took a lie detector to back up what he said. Martin also had no physical evidence of being struck violently.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Of course not. But again, it does come back to the matter of Martin becoming a suspect immediately in Zimmerman's eyes. How does the cliche go, first impressions are lasting impressions? I think this case is a perfect example. 

Do you suffer from selective reading?

 

Zimmerman lives in a community that has been hit by burglaries by black men, the night Trayvon died he was walking in the rain stoping to look at houses, jumping fences and gardens and yes he was black which is why Zimmerman was suspicious.

 

Not a year before Zimmerman was in the news and on TV trying to uncover a police coverup of the beating of a black man and he worked with underprivileged kids which included black kids, but yeah he totally saw a black guy and marked him as up to no good just because of his skin colour.....................

[rfirth]

Jenteal testified that she heard Trayvon say, "Get off. Get off," before what sounded like the phone falling in "wet grass". If this is true, wouldn't that indicate that Zimmerman either attacked Trayvon first or may have gained the upperhand?

 

The call was dropped a full 2 minutes before he got shot. Either they were fighting for a full 2 minutes, in which case they both would have been considerably more beat up (Martin had no evidence of being violently hit by anything other than a bullet), or the fight lasted considerably less time. It's more likely that the call was dropped (or Martin hung up) about a minute before the confrontation.

More likely than not, she's lying about that. You're not going to get very reliable testimony from family members or girlfriends/boyfriends.

 

And what does a phone sound like when falling in wet grass? Could you identify a phone falling in wet grass if you heard it during a call? And a better question, where was the phone found afterward? In the grass, or in his pocket?

[Wyn6]

Zimmerman took a lie detector to back up what he said. Martin also had no physical evidence of being struck violently.

 

There is a reason lie detector tests aren't admissable in court.

 

The call was dropped a full 2 minutes before he got shot. Either they were fighting for a full 2 minutes, in which case they both would have been considerably more beat up (Martin had no evidence of being violently hit by anything other than a bullet), or the fight lasted considerably less time. It's more likely that the call was dropped (or Martin hung up) about a minute before the confrontation.

More likely than not, she's lying about that. You're not going to get very reliable testimony from family members or girlfriends/boyfriends.

 

And what does a phone sound like when falling in wet grass? Could you identify a phone falling in wet grass if you heard it during a call? And a better question, where was the phone found afterward? In the grass, or in his pocket?

 

Oh. I 100% agree as that's my very point. No one knows what happened.It's all hearsay as there are no true witnesses save Zimmerman and Trayvon and only one of them can provide testimony.

[dead.cell]

Anyone running at night in an area that had recent breakin issues is going to he looked on as suspicious, especially if they cut through behind buildings etc. Doesn't matter whst color they are, and since 90% plus of crime on blacks is committed by other blacks you have far more to fear from each other than from anyone else. Get your priorities straight.

 

Reminds me of the time I was shot at as a kid.

 

My friends and I were walking up and down the ditch that runs behind people's houses, looking for turtles and other fish. Everyone has a fence between their back yard and the ditch, but we didn't think twice about what impression we might give others running back there, being that we were only around 10-12 years old. Anyway, we apparently were walking behind the house of an ex-cop who had been known for being a dick, decided to fire off a warning shot. At least, that's what I'm hoping it was seeing as none of us were hit.

 

Between at least two of us, we had blonde hair and blue eyes. While I'm half Hispanic, but no one can tell that unless I actually tell them. Just thought I'd share this tidbit, seeing as it fit what you were saying quite well...

[DocM]

That it did - thanks for sharing.

[DocM]

There is a reason lie detector tests aren't admissable in court.

But they are used as an investigational tool. To that, Trayvon's G/F should have been submitted to one before making such an a**hat of herself on he stand. She did the defense more good than the prosecution.

Oh. I 100% agree as that's my very point. No one knows what happened.It's all hearsay as there are no true witnesses save Zimmerman and Trayvon and only one of them can provide testimony.

That's called reasonable doubt, which all hy itself warrants a Not Guilty finding. Better yet, they should not have bypassed the citizens Grand Jury, which likely would not have returned an indictment based on such flimsy evidence and saved both the cost of a trial and the major embarrassment of the prosecutor.

[game_over]

Do you suffer from selective reading?

 

Zimmerman lives in a community that has been hit by burglaries by black men, the night Trayvon died he was walking in the rain stoping to look at houses, jumping fences and gardens and yes he was black which is why Zimmerman was suspicious.

 

Not a year before Zimmerman was in the news and on TV trying to uncover a police coverup of the beating of a black man and he worked with underprivileged kids which included black kids, but yeah he totally saw a black guy and marked him as up to no good just because of his skin colour.....................

 

And who confirmed he was 'looking at houses and was jumping fences', Zimmerman?

 

Are people seriously arguing SYG law applies to a man who actively pursued a teenager with a gun in his car? He decided to pursue a teenager for no (or little) reasons.. with NO police experience, gets authoritative, teenager resists and fights in self defence, Zimmerman decides to end his life on the grass. There is a plain recording of the police department (THE ACTUAL POLICE) telling him not to pursue him. He did anyway, because he played cop, this alone should ring alarm bells. Anyone who is arguing either that racism isn't in full-effect in the American justice system or shouldn't be considered is a ######ing idiot. Zimmerman was a volunteer flashing his penis (gun), trying to play a hero, and someone died for it.. he should be in jail.

[Dinggus]

And who confirmed he was 'looking at houses and was jumping fences', Zimmerman?

 

Are people seriously arguing SYG law applies to a man who actively pursued a teenager with a gun in his car? He decided to pursue a teenager for no (or little) reasons.. with NO police experience, gets authoritative, teenager resists and fights in self defence, Zimmerman decides to end his life on the grass. There is a plain recording of the police department (THE ACTUAL POLICE) telling him not to pursue him. He did anyway, because he played cop, this alone should ring alarm bells. Anyone who is arguing either that racism isn't in full-effect in the American justice system or shouldn't be considered is a ****ing idiot. Zimmerman was a volunteer flashing his penis (gun), trying to play a hero, and someone died for it.. he should be in jail.

 

He didn't pursue the teenage with a gun in his car, he was on foot. His reasons were the kid was jumping fences and looking through houses. I don't know where you're from but if someone jumped my fence or looked inside my house, I'd definitely pursue him as well as that is suspicious. The actual police did not tell Zimmerman to not pursue, a police dispatcher did. What provoked Trayvon to throw the first punch? If I was being followed, I wouldn't assault someone for it, I'd find out why they are following me, and defend myself if needed. Zimmerman wasn't flashing his gun, he was being assaulted, Trayvon then seen his weapon while pinning Zimmerman to the ground. But then again, this is the USA and you live in England, so really it shouldn't bother you to much.

This whole racist thing is stupid, to be honest white people have already moved forward from the 1960's and the black people continue to live in it. Is it okay for a black person to call a white person a "cracka"? No. Is it okay for a white person to call a black person a "<< racial epithet >>"? No. But apparently it's okay for a black person to call a black person a "<< racial epithet >>". The only people who is keeping racism alive is majority black people.

Edit: Apparently Neowin allows "cracka" and doesn't see it as a "racial epithet".

[game_over]

He didn't pursue the teenage with a gun in his car, he was on foot. His reasons were the kid was jumping fences and looking through houses. I don't know where you're from but if someone jumped my fence or looked inside my house, I'd definitely pursue him as well as that is suspicious. The actual police did not tell Zimmerman to not pursue, a police dispatcher did. What provoked Trayvon to throw the first punch? If I was being followed, I wouldn't assault someone for it, I'd find out why they are following me, and defend myself if needed. Zimmerman wasn't flashing his gun, he was being assaulted, Trayvon then seen his weapon while pinning Zimmerman to the ground. But then again, this is the USA and you live in England, so really it shouldn't bother you to much.

This whole racist thing is stupid, to be honest white people have already moved forward from the 1960's and the black people continue to live in it. Is it okay for a black person to call a white person a "cracka"? No. Is it okay for a white person to call a black person a "<< racial epithet >>"? No. But apparently it's okay for a black person to call a black person a "<< racial epithet >>". The only people who is keeping racism alive is majority black people.

Edit: Apparently Neowin allows "cracka" and doesn't see it as a "racial epithet".

 

Pretty sure he was originally sat in his car, neither here nor there..

 

And where is the evidence to suggest he was looking through peoples windows and jumping fences? I'm not saying he wasn't, but it can't be proved on Zimmerman's one sided story.. did any witnesses come forward to back up claims he was looking into their house?

 

Police/police dispatcher, what is the difference? why didn't he listen? If he listened to them Trayvon would have been alive now.

 

Again, who said Trayvon threw the first punch? Zimmerman? I know you can only really go off the 'evidence in the court' but a lot of you are forgetting this is a one sided case, there is no one alive to defend Trayvon but it does not mean you should dismiss other possibilities.

 

Also, what is this guys duty to make himself known? Does he have a badge/identification to flash? Did he shout 'stop, neighbourhood watch' ?... Lets say Trayvon did throw the first punch, what might you do if you were being approached by some random guy?

[Dinggus]

Pretty sure he was originally sat in his car, neither here nor there..

 

And where is the evidence to suggest he was looking through peoples windows and jumping fences? I'm not saying he wasn't, but it can't be proved on Zimmerman's one sided story.. did any witnesses come forward to back up claims he was looking into their house?

 

Police/police dispatcher, what is the difference? why didn't he listen? If he listened to them Trayvon would have been alive now.

 

Again, who said Trayvon threw the first punch? Zimmerman? I know you can only really go off the 'evidence in the court' but a lot of you are forgetting this is a one sided case, there is no one alive to defend Trayvon but it does not mean you should dismiss other possibilities.

 

Also, what is this guys duty to make himself known? Does he have a badge/identification to flash? Did he shout 'stop, neighbourhood watch' ?... Lets say Trayvon did throw the first punch, what might you do if you were being approached by some random guy?

 

He sat in his car, seen Trayvon and viewed him doing suspicious activities. Called 911, the dispatcher asked for a house number which some how he didn't see the house next to him with the number. Yes suspicious. A police dispatcher doesn't have any law enforcement authority, so telling him do not pursue doesn't really stop him.

 

All we really have is what Zimmerman has stated. Why would he throw a punch? No need if he has a weapon, right? Last I heard about this case is the witness (and for what ever reason never looked out their window), heard someone screaming for help and then a gun shot, and no more screams. Zimmerman told his friend the story of what happened, and Zimmerman told the police what happened. Obviously it is the same story he told his friend and police, so there isn't any differences to them.

 

If some random person approaches me, which happens every few days, I wouldn't assault them unless I needed to defend myself. It's obvious Trayvon was some what thugish from his photo's, and not this precious Angel that everyone thing's he was. I'm pretty sure a precious Angel wouldn't smoke weed 3-4 times a week.

 

(I have nothing against Trayvon, but the photo's online show him looking thugish)

 

If I was Zimmerman, and getting assaulted for questioning an suspicious person, and felt my life was threaten, I would have done the same thing and so would anyone to stop their ass from being kicked. Who knows what would have happened if Zimmerman got knocked out to where he couldn't defend himself.

[chrismgtis]

I don't buy it. The police officers told him not to follow the kid but yet he did and he killed him as a result. The kid was on his way home from the store carrying ice tea. I don't buy self defense for a minute. 

 

You need to be more aware of the facts. The person involved in advising him not to do so, didn't have the authority to do so. It was nothing more than a request.

[Praetor]

Pretty sure he was originally sat in his car, neither here nor there..

 

And where is the evidence to suggest he was looking through peoples windows and jumping fences? I'm not saying he wasn't, but it can't be proved on Zimmerman's one sided story.. did any witnesses come forward to back up claims he was looking into their house?

 

Police/police dispatcher, what is the difference? why didn't he listen? If he listened to them Trayvon would have been alive now.

 

Again, who said Trayvon threw the first punch? Zimmerman? I know you can only really go off the 'evidence in the court' but a lot of you are forgetting this is a one sided case, there is no one alive to defend Trayvon but it does not mean you should dismiss other possibilities.

 

Also, what is this guys duty to make himself known? Does he have a badge/identification to flash? Did he shout 'stop, neighbourhood watch' ?... Lets say Trayvon did throw the first punch, what might you do if you were being approached by some random guy?

 

 

So you are saying that, since it's Zimmerman only word of the actual events, it's dubious. OK, so it all sums to this (the facts that can be proven since there's witness): did Zimmerman had the right to use his gun to protect himself (self-defense)? The court said yes.

[game_over]

So you are saying that, since it's Zimmerman only word of the actual events, it's dubious. OK, so it all sums to this (the facts that can be proven since there's witness): did Zimmerman had the right to use his gun to protect himself (self-defense)? The court said yes.

 

Yes, that's exactly what i am saying. Don't get me wrong, the courts done what they had to do based on the evidence presented to them... It's not hard to fabricate a story when there is no one around to dispute it..

 

Who sits in their car, with a gun, volunteering to look after the neighbourhood? Someone who thinks they're someone they're not, he was looking for trouble.

 

We have a neighbourhood watch around here,but it's based on being vigilant, keeping your eyes open and looking out for each other, not sitting in your car waiting for something to happen.

[Phouchg]

^

10 READ FACTS

20 GOTO 10

 

He was not on duty at the time. He was exactly only being vigilant and keeping his eyes open.