Neowin's NHL Discussion Thread

[BMac]

Ottawa is known to choke in the playoffs. They had a decent run last year, but in the end they ended up losing. Normally they choke much quicker than that, but I'll give them last year. I think Atlanta could easily beat them in the playoffs.

Zetterberg left when they started winning with Joseph, so it was hardly a time of chaos. He also pulled his groin, so it would have been extremely hard for him to play. Yzerman has sat out with the same injury before. And here's the kicker: Yzerman sat out at the same time as Zetterberg (this year, the time we're talking about) with the same injury! :laugh: They sure could have used Yzerman as a leader, huh? ;)

Hull wants to end his career in Detroit, so he was hardly bought. He came to Detroit and is playing for very little money. Hardly what you would consider "buying" a player as. Hatcher, yes, they "bought". They went after a free agent that would improve their team, what a crime! Hasek demanded a trade when he was in Buffalo and jumped at the shot for both Detroit and St. Louis, among other teams. Hasek was hardly bought. He then asked for his contract to be restructed, which the Red Wings obliged. If you're going for a Stanley Cup, why not? CuJo was bought, yes, again to improve the team. Though, personally, I've never liked CuJo as a goalie and would have rather Legace been promoted to starter. Schinder was traded for, and the Red Wings gave up quite a bit for him, so that's hardly being "bought". It was a good trade and their payroll stayed practically the same. Robatallie played for hardly any money and he wanted to end his career. Unfortunately, he wasn't playing well and wanted to end his career on a high note, so he went back to LA. Hardly a fair list, and an inaccurate list at that.

What's your point? And, nice try to research it, but Kozlov is with Atlanta, not Florida. Viktor Kozlov is a completely different Kozlov. Kocur is retired now and served as an assistant to the Red Wings. I would think that you'd know he was one of the "Bash Brothers", as most hockey fans know. Then again, you've never lived in Detroit, so maybe you just watched your team in hockey :)

If you knew much, you'd know that Detroit did NOT want Konstantinov to get paralyzed, obviously, didn't want Kocur to retire, didn't want Fedorov to leave for Anahiem (they tried signing him instead of Hatcher, but Fedorov wanted a leadership role, and Yzerman is the current "leader" in the Red Wings as you've stated: that's hardly a secret), tried to keep Kozlov, but they had to trade someone to Buffalo for Hasek. Osgood they got rid of because, A) he wanted to leave and not be a backup again, B) they had obtained a good goalie, C) they did not want a goalie controversy as they currently have.

Detroit keeps most of their players and care for most of their players. I find it funny that an Avalanche fan is telling me this when the Avalanche sent some of their best young players away in recent trades (like to get Rob Blake, and when they traded Drury).

The Red Wings also have some of the top prospects in all of hockey. The Red Wings are known for having an amazing draft. Colorado is not.

Just so you know: my post is not to cause an arguement, it's to have a debate, and I have no ill will against you or anything :)

Ok, Ottawa. I don't know what you're hopped up on but Atlanta would get crushed by Ottawa in the playoffs. You sound fairly educated but that was a n00b statement. Playoff wins come with experience that Ottawa is gaining. There is no way Atlanta could beat Ottawa. Nurminen is good but has no experience and would crumble against the speedy offense of Ottawa.

Zetterberg was hurt before Joseph started winning. He was nearly recovered by then. As for Yzerman being out at the same time last year. The Wings were flying at this time last year and had no reason to ask him to not take time off. So yes he is a smart leader. I'm sorry not going buy this Zetterberg the next Yzerman story until he proves it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Brett Hull still doesn't come cheap. He was a buy any star over $4 mill is a buy and he qualifies. Hatcher yes they bought, no it's not a crime but just don't deny it next time. Hasek was bout. He was one of the highest paid goalies at the time don't give me that. I agree with the Legace statement and glad you acknoweledged CuJo. You bought Schnider originally and the he left in the off season and you reaquired him later on last season. For Robtaile, I again come back to my Hull argument. He was nowhere near free like Kariya was.

For the research comment, I didn't research I was just shooting off the top of my head of these "great players" who don't quite live up to your statement. Kozlov was good, and I'm sorry I mixed him up with Viktor. Kocur was satisfactory at best and was one of those players the home town would grow to love. I mixed his status up with Knuble. I do take tabs on the entire league but my true hatred towards the Wings sort of causes me to stop listening when they are discussed.

Like I said lets not go there with Konstantinov. Of course they didn't want that to happen what kind of a statement is that? :s Fedorov was forced away because of your new younger leader Zetterberg. It was not Yzerman because he played along side him for years with him having much of a quarrel. You could have kept Fedorov if you would have eased up on you Zetterberg is the Russian that will lead this team crap. Kozlov I'll give you. It was wise since they already had Ozzie's bags packed. Osgood is amazing. Detroit would have been smart to keep him as he will be around longer than Hasek and is looking pretty damn good in St. Lou right now.

The Avs have drafted some great players including the previously given list as well as guys like Lindros (Nordique days). I would not venture to say they are worse drafters than Detroit. They have kept key players to form their core like Sakic and Tanguay. The argument could be made both ways about whose the better drafting team. So Scorpio your statement that Colorado is not known for drafting is incorrect and senile. The deal for Blake in my opinion was a great one because they already had forwards like Tanguay, Hedjuk, Sakic and Forsberg. They didn't need Drury but they definately could use Blake. They've also picked up great young stars like Morris along the way.

All my comments are as Scorpio stated, made in the intentions of creating a debate. Please don't take any comments personal and please keep up the great debate.

[Ayepecks]

Well, seeing some of the games that both teams have played, I think it's safe to say that Atlanta would at least push Ottawa. Would they crush them into submission or anything? No :laugh: But I think it'd be a close series and Atlanta would come out on top, but that's just my opinion. Look at the amount of goals Atlanta has, then factor in the goaltending problems that Ottawa's been having and you've got a pretty good advantage for Atlanta. Atlanta's also pushed or beaten some of the biggest teams in the league where Ottawa seems to be getting most of their points against the cellar teams of the NHL (but, to be honest, I haven't completely followed their games). Nurminen may not have experience, but neither did Turco or Giguere last year. Manny Fernandez (Wild Goalie) also only had one or two games under his belt in the playoffs coming into last year. Goalies are amazing now-a-days: they can go into the playoffs and not be shaken up one bit. Not to mention Byron Dafoe's on their roster, too, even if he is stinking it up... He's got some experience. I don't know if I'd trust him, though :laugh:

No, Zetterberg wasn't hurt before that. They'd recalled Joseph before that night (when they recalled a ton of players from Grand Rapids) on two occasions and he did rather well. Then Legace got hurt and they called him up for a third time this year. I don't know if Zetterberg will take a leadership role as quickly as Yzerman did, but I think he'll eventually take it (within 3 years or so, I would venture).

Never denied that they bought Hatcher ;) But you must remember it's hardly buying him when you let Sergei Fedorov go, who has just as big of an asking value on the market as Hatcher does any season (and he did). Hasek was traded for. He demanded a trade. He said that he'd go for Detroit or St. Louis, according to his agent at the time. So, when Detroit heard this, they obviously jumped at the opportunity. One of the best goalies in the game going to you or your closest division rivals? I don't think the decision was that hard to make. And, as I said, the money almost (but fell short 2 million) broke the Red Wings even with the players they traded. Luc signed for $2 million. That's about what Kariya got, right? One more thing: Perhaps you got him confused with someone else (?), but Schneider we got late last season. He never left, Detroit sent some young players to LA for him.

And, I can absolutely 100%, without hesitation, promise you that Fedorov was not forced away. The Red Wings offered him 5 years at $10 million a year to keep him, but he wanted to be the leader of the team, which would mean Yzerman couldn't be there. Mike Illitch (the owner of the Red Wings) said himself that he personally asked Fedorov to stay at 5 years for $10 million, but Fedorov would only do it if he had more of a leadership role. I'm sure searching google would turn up numerous articles on the Red Wings offering him that contract. I'm not sure what you meant by letting Zetterberg go (?). Osgood was nowhere near the calibur goalie that Hasek was, even if it was just for a few seasons. Osgood may be in the league longer, but he's only a good goalie, at best. Hasek was an amazing goalie at the time. Don't forget that Legace arguably also outplayed Osgood the previous year.

Colorado is not known for drafting. I don't mean it in a rude way, it's just a pretty much known statement in the hockey community. Colorado hasn't had a really good draft in ages and almost all of their players come in the 1st round, which is hardly good drafting skills.

[BMac]

Well, seeing some of the games that both teams have played, I think it's safe to say that Atlanta would at least push Ottawa. Would they crush them into submission or anything? No :laugh: But I think it'd be a close series and Atlanta would come out on top, but that's just my opinion. Look at the amount of goals Atlanta has, then factor in the goaltending problems that Ottawa's been having and you've got a pretty good advantage for Atlanta. Atlanta's also pushed or beaten some of the biggest teams in the league where Ottawa seems to be getting most of their points against the cellar teams of the NHL (but, to be honest, I haven't completely followed their games). Nurminen may not have experience, but neither did Turco or Giguere last year. Manny Fernandez (Wild Goalie) also only had one or two games under his belt in the playoffs coming into last year. Goalies are amazing now-a-days: they can go into the playoffs and not be shaken up one bit. Not to mention Byron Dafoe's on their roster, too, even if he is stinking it up... He's got some experience. I don't know if I'd trust him, though :laugh:

No, Zetterberg wasn't hurt before that. They'd recalled Joseph before that night (when they recalled a ton of players from Grand Rapids) on two occasions and he did rather well. Then Legace got hurt and they called him up for a third time this year. I don't know if Zetterberg will take a leadership role as quickly as Yzerman did, but I think he'll eventually take it (within 3 years or so, I would venture).

Never denied that they bought Hatcher ;) But you must remember it's hardly buying him when you let Sergei Fedorov go, who has just as big of an asking value on the market as Hatcher does any season (and he did). Hasek was traded for. He demanded a trade. He said that he'd go for Detroit or St. Louis, according to his agent at the time. So, when Detroit heard this, they obviously jumped at the opportunity. One of the best goalies in the game going to you or your closest division rivals? I don't think the decision was that hard to make. And, as I said, the money almost (but fell short 2 million) broke the Red Wings even with the players they traded. Luc signed for $2 million. That's about what Kariya got, right? One more thing: Perhaps you got him confused with someone else (?), but Schneider we got late last season. He never left, Detroit sent some young players to LA for him.

And, I can absolutely 100%, without hesitation, promise you that Fedorov was not forced away. The Red Wings offered him 5 years at $10 million a year to keep him, but he wanted to be the leader of the team, which would mean Yzerman couldn't be there. Mike Illitch (the owner of the Red Wings) said himself that he personally asked Fedorov to stay at 5 years for $10 million, but Fedorov would only do it if he had more of a leadership role. I'm sure searching google would turn up numerous articles on the Red Wings offering him that contract. I'm not sure what you meant by letting Zetterberg go (?). Osgood was nowhere near the calibur goalie that Hasek was, even if it was just for a few seasons. Osgood may be in the league longer, but he's only a good goalie, at best. Hasek was an amazing goalie at the time. Don't forget that Legace arguably also outplayed Osgood the previous year.

Colorado is not known for drafting. I don't mean it in a rude way, it's just a pretty much known statement in the hockey community. Colorado hasn't had a really good draft in ages and almost all of their players come in the 1st round, which is hardly good drafting skills.

Here we go again. :laugh:

Give me a break dude. Atlanta has never been in a playoff game. They have few veterans and that will hurt them. Ottawa's goalie problems as you call them are blips. Lalime was sick and played **** a few times. He still a top goalie and is bound to get back in the swing of things soon. As for Ottawa choking, they lost to teams like Toronto and Philly. Atlanta isn't in the league of either of them. As for your Dafoe comment he's cold and hasn't played much not to mention your point on him sucking. Ottawa would crush the Thrashers in 5.

Ok you're talking about the first call up of Joseph I thought you meant the most recent. When Hasek and Legace got hurt again Zetterberg was out and the Wings were scrambling at that point. Future will only tell if Zetterberg will be the next leader. Lets wait and see.

They lost Fedorov granted but Hatcher is still a buy. Regardless of the loss of Sergei a buy is buy and they bought a big contract. Hasek was traded for but Detroit bought a major portion of his salary in the deal with Buffalo that's why I called that a buy. It was a smart move but that doesn't change the fact that they bought him off Buffalo. Robataille was $2 mill which is some what small but consider he was in the twighlight years of his career and I see it as a buy. That one's a toss up take it for what you want. Just for interest sake Kariya was actually only like $1.1 which is highway robbery considering he's one of the best Left Wingers in the league. Now for Schneider. I'm not confusing him with anyone. Schneider was traded to you last year as a playoff pickup. His contract then expirered and I was referring to the resigning as a buy.

My point was the Wings were hyping Zetterberg as their next leader. I feel that this new, younger Russian that was dubbed as the next leader may have scared Fedorov away. (Sorry if I was unclear last post) Now for Osgood. Osgood is younger won the wings a cup. Led them through one of the most successful seasons ever with 60 some odd wins. He should have got so respect because he was excellent and is making the wings look foolish now as one of the premier goalies in the league. (Look at his stats if you don't believe me. Wins in particular) Legace out played Osgood. What planet were you watching from? Osgood was always known as the Wings starter when comparing him to Legace. Legace may have had good stats but he didn't haul the work load Ozzie did. Oh well the Wings got what they deserved. Osgood is now wicked and Hasek's in rehab. Now that's poetic justice if ever heard it.

I don't know if the Detroit media is in grudge with Colorado or something but this info you got is retarded. As a Canadian I hear of how great both teams drafting skills are. Some critics even go as far as saying the Avs are better. I won't go that far but they are good.

[Ayepecks]

[Quick Question: Where'd everyone else go? :laugh: ]

The Wild had also never been in a playoff game last year. The NHL isn't at a stage where you can say that if you don't have playoff experience you're going to lose. Carolina and Anahiem also had little experience going into last year and the year before in the playoffs... Then there's Tampa Bay, who also had very little experience but relied upon strong goaltending (I love Khali, he's an amazing goalie... I wanted the Wings to try to get him during his holdout) to get them through. I've seen goalies play sick and play better than Lalime did: unless he had something pulled, broke, or the like then that's not a valid exuse. Eddie Belfour (though I don't like him) was horribly sick during the Star's lone Stanley Cup win (and in the final round against Buffalo, no less) yet he still played good. I hardly think that Ottawa would crush the Thrashers. If anything, they'd give them a run for their money.

I'm with you on Zetterberg. Even if I am wrong and he turns out not to be a leader then I think he'll still be an amazing player.

Yeah, I suppose that you could call Hatcher and Hasek buys if that's how you define them, but the Red Wings still have far more options than "buying" players. If any team buys players, it's New York (Rangers), I think almost any hockey fan can agree on that :laugh: Dallas also bursts my bubble, too, because almost all their players came from outside the organization when Hicks was willing to spend a ton of money on them [scott Young, Peirre Turgeon, Belfour, Bill G., Jason Arnott, etc]. Luc was hardly in the twilight of his career: yes, he had an amazing amount of total goals, but his season averages as of late weren't that good. That's about the same as Kariya, yet Kariya was coming off a better year. You've got to get some players like Schneider somehow if they don't come from your organization, so the Red Wings re-signed him (not to a bad price, either: $3 mil or so). It was a good move considering he's easily their best defenseman right now. Every team "buys" some players, but the Wings aren't going out and picking up everyone every year like New York. The only year when they really "bought" a ton of players was their last Cup year ('02). Before then and after then I can't remember a time when they brought in a ton of the league's best players. Last year it was Hatcher and a few others. Hasek came back because the Wings were going to drop his contract if he didn't play (he was making $8 mil/year because he never sent in his retirement papers, something most stars commonly do).

Zetterberg is Czech, I believe, but I'm not sure. Datsyuk is the only Russian currently on the Red Wing's roster. Osgood won the Cup the year after Mike Vernon won the cup and neither of them were exactly "amazing" goalies. They were both decent, but it was the Red Wing's offense that won them the Cups in 97 and 98. Osgood is hardly one of the premier goalies in the league, I promise you. He's a good goalie, yes, but he isn't even in the top 10 or 15. Maybe top 20. And, Legace did outplay Osgood that year. He had an amazing season and Osgood wasn't doing so well. I watched almost every one of their games and it wasn't hard to tell. Statistics don't mean everything, especially in the NHL. I'm amazed at how you think Osgood is an amazing goalie... You're the first person I've ever, in my entire life (including living in Detroit and visiting St. Louis for relatives), say that. It's laughable to even consider him one of the best in the league. He's good, yes, but he's not that good, I promise you. Don't get me wrong, he's a super nice guy (he'd always stick around longer than most other players to sign autographs and such), but he is nowhere near an amazing goalie. Not at all. It's ludacris to say such a thing.

I no longer live in Detroit, so it's not the media. The information I have is correct, not "retarded". Go to a hockey messageboard and say that Osgood is one of the best goalies in the league and that the Avs have an amazing drafting system and see how far you get :laugh:

[-Clark-]

[Quick Question: Where'd everyone else go? :laugh: ]

away from the long posts :unsure:

flyers always seem to do horrible without primeau :no:

hes not even that good

[Ayepecks]

away from the long posts  :unsure:

flyers always seem to do horrible without primeau  :no:

hes not even that good

Ah, we're just talking, others can still reply... Not like we could stop anyone :p

Primeau's a good player. Statistics may not show it, but he's a good playmaker. I remember him in his Detroit days :) Too bad he left... To the team we beat in the Stanley Cup :pinch: Guess he saw something he liked :)

[LRoling]

I can't even begin the reply to Scorpio's post since they contain absolute disregard for any facts. If the statements weren't so biased toward the Red Wings, maybe they would make sense. Only things I agree with are that Osgood isn't that great, but he's been amazing this season. Heh, that's it.

Federov, ridden out of Detroit due to lack of leadership role, kept getting put on defense when the Wings blew ass, and now Zetterberg's emergence. He turned down the offer for all of that. And decided to go to Anaheim because he wanted to be the leader.

I'm an Avalanche fan, yes, so before you rip my views, I'm gonna try to be as unbiased as possible. Actually, I'm an Avalanche fan, but I support my local Blackhawks, even though they freakin blow, but hey, we fired Mike Smith, good job.

The Avs farm systems and drafting system are possibly one of the best in the NHL. Look at all the picks mentioned before, not to mention they've found many guys who weren't considered very good late in the draft, ie: Hedjuk. I don't know what message board you are browsing, probably Red Wings fans only, but that statement is a farce.

Fact of the matter is, Hockey is about "buying" players to win a Cup. It's ideal that a team can draft someone who will produce 70+ points a year or 50+ goals, etc. But it doesn't happen that often, Wings and Avs have had some great years of drafting, Wings have had more recent success, but there is always the next draft and more prospects coming out. But the league is all about buying players, Wings and Avs have both done it, and it's what professional sports are about, so anybody who is saying the Avs bought the Cup or the Wings bought the Cup, so what? We won the Cup, that's what matters, who cares, all sports teams do that. Yankees and Lakers have done it for years. Where the hell is the bitching about that? Come on, NHL is no different and it's part of the business involved, so quit whining.

[BMac]

Ok I'll try and keep this short so I don't scare anyone away.

Scorpio you obviously know nothing about the Thrashers or the Sens. It would be a blow out. Go throw that comment in your message board and watch the flamage.

Zetterberg is the last straw as Lroling refered to. Fedorov left cause Detroit were being asses to him. Detroit deserves what they got.

Now Osgood. Scorpio (no offense here but) pull you head out of your ass for a minute here. Some stats. GP: 29 Wins: 17 GGA: 2.04 Save%:.920 SO: 2. Those stats are amazing. You're blind. Osgood is and if you disagree then will be one of the best goalies in the league.

@ ace135cc: The Flyers are tied for first relax they're an awesome team.

Finally the Avs. Scorpio you are uneducated in this subject. I watch the draft every year as the NHL draft is as big here as the NFL down there. The Avs are a great drafting team. End of discussion. It's a known fact all you have to do is look at what they've produced. Don't argue with me or Lroling here cause you're WRONG.

Now that's a little longer than I wanted but it had to be done.

[-Clark-]

Ah, we're just talking, others can still reply... Not like we could stop anyone :p

Primeau's a good player. Statistics may not show it, but he's a good playmaker. I remember him in his Detroit days :) Too bad he left... To the team we beat in the Stanley Cup :pinch: Guess he saw something he liked :)

he saw the orange and black, red and white is over used. :yes:

[BMac]

he saw the orange and black, red and white is over used. :yes:

Yup. Best thing that ever happened to him was getting out of Detroit and out of the shadows of guys like Fedorov and Yzerman.

[-Clark-]

hes a good captain, whatever he says to the boys when hes playing gets the job done, but whenever hes gone, seems it goes down hill. :no:

[BMac]

hes a good captain, whatever he says to the boys when hes playing gets the job done, but whenever hes gone, seems it goes down hill. :no:

My only fear for philly is that Hackett won't get it done in the playoffs. I still think you need to address the goalie situation. I see Cujo as a good fit for the Flyers though.

[-Clark-]

ew, no cujo. hackett sucks, he is on and off, just like cechmanek was.

esche is good, he just didn't have a good game, coming off injury, im sure he just wasn't ready, but they weren't going to start hackett back-to-back.

[BMac]

ew, no cujo. hackett sucks, he is on and off, just like cechmanek was.

esche is good, he just didn't have a good game, coming off injury, im sure he just wasn't ready, but they weren't going to start hackett back-to-back.

So if you don't want Cujo and you agree Hackett's not the answer what should philly do? Please don't say Esche he was the flavour of the month before he got hurt.

[Ayepecks]

Yup. Best thing that ever happened to him was getting out of Detroit and out of the shadows of guys like Fedorov and Yzerman.

Actually have to agree with that. He probably wanted to be a top-liner.

[BMac]

Actually have to agree with that. He probably wanted to be a top-liner.

He was better than a third liner. There was just too much depth on Detroit back then. Anyway the deal worked out for the wings as they got Shannahan and Premieau got to show his true skills as a leader.

[-Clark-]

theres no reason to pick up very expensive, over the hill cujo. esche is good, i don't believe he can bring us the cup, but im sure there will be some good opportunity soon to pick up a goalie, other than cujo.

[BMac]

theres no reason to pick up very expensive, over the hill cujo. esche is good, i don't believe he can bring us the cup, but im sure there will be some good opportunity soon to pick up a goalie, other than cujo.

If you wanted "good" you should have kept Cechmanek. But you didn't you wanted a cup so now you better go after someone better than the guy you gave away.

[Billthy]

ya but this year looks like a good year to get a good goalie to try and win the cup for you guys! Who knows phili might suck next year, you never know (probly wont but still). i would pick up cujo with a 1 or 2 year deal and then once that is up go for someone else cuz this year philis chances are really strong!

[BMac]

ya but this year looks like a good year to get a good goalie to try and win the cup for you guys! Who knows phili might suck next year, you never know (probly wont but still). i would pick up cujo with a 1 or 2 year deal and then once that is up go for someone else cuz this year philis chances are really strong!

I would disagree. With the potential lock out next year this may be his last year. Just take him for a run at the cup because who knows what the future holds for the NHL.

[Billthy]

well i said 1 or 2 years

[BMac]

well i said 1 or 2 years

I'm just saying I wouldn't do the 2nd year. Just my opinion though.

[Ayepecks]

@ LRoling:

If you'd mind stating any of these so-called "facts" that you speak of, then perhaps I will believe you. But, you along with I, am biased towards your team. Not to mention that the two teams each of us favors seperately are perhaps the biggest rivals in the entire NHL. I am "so biased" towards the Red Wings because I'm a fan. You are "so biased" towards the Avs because you are a fan; can't change that. Obviously neither of us are going to see eye-to-eye on both matters, so all I can post are the facts that I know for sure and my opinions mingled in.

That said, Fedorov was hardly "ridden out of Detroit". Fedorov was offered a 5 year contract at (at least) $10 million a year; maybe it's just me, but that's hardly being "ridden out" of Detroit. Fedorov wanted to be the top line center at all times, have more playing time, and to be the leader of this team. That would mean getting rid of Yzerman, something that Mike Illitch, the owner of the Detroit Red Wings, simply would not do. I don't blame him. Yzerman is a sports icon in Detroit and Fedorov can't change that even if he surpasses Wayne Gretzkey on the all-time points list (which won't happen this far into his career). Zetterberg's emergence had absolutely nothing to do with it, I hope you can understand this. Every year there's an "emergence" on the Red Wings. Last year, Zetterberg. Year before, Datsyuk. Year before that, Fischer. Even before that it was Martin LaPointe. Before him, Darren McCarty. This year it was going to be Hudler but things didn't go according to plan. Detroit eases its rookies in with a mix of playing time and good lines. Fedorov was not getting "put on defense" because the Red Wings "blew ass", as you call it. He was put on defense (as a defenseman) because he's played defenseman before in the Russia. Fedorov has played all the positions with the exception of goaltender, so why not put him at all positions? If you're referring to him having to play more defense than a regular center, that's because he's an extremely talented two-way player. One of the best in the game, in my opinion. I also believe you're mixing up your years because it was Bowman who put Fedorov on denfense and he was not the coach last year. And, the Red Wings "blew ass"? That's just a child-like comment. Especially when the goal in hockey is to obtain Lord Stanley's Cup: something that your team didn't accomplish last season either, now did they?

I never said that the Avalanche had a horrible drafting system. I said that they were not known for it. They've got a few good, late round picks (such as Hedjuk, but he was hardly a late round pick considering he was in the fourth round), but most of their players are already scouted by the entire NHL because they're first round picks. I never said you have a horrible farm system, I said you're not known for it.

I agree with you. Hockey is about "buying" players. Hockey is also about having good drafts and "buying" players, though. If you only buy players you're going to get nowhere fast; look at the New York Rangers. Didn't do them much good to ignore their draft. And, yes, both the Red Wings and Avs have bought players. I agree with you completely. Buying players normally comes through successful drafting (when you have better drafting your team will improve, hopefully adding to your revenues), which both the Red Wings and Avalanche have had. The Lightning and Thrashers are starting to get that now, so I'm sure that they'll be bigger players in the free agent market soon. I'm not whining, either. I'm pretty sure someone merely said that the Red Wings only won the Cup because they "bought" it, which wasn't true, so I merely stated my opinion on the matter and gave some examples.

I'm not trying to be biased, I'm just giving you my honest opinion. Is it going to come out biased? Absolutely, just as your's will. You're an Avalanche fan, I'm a Red Wings fan, we're both biased to our teams even if you try to forget about it.

@BMac:

I've been following the Thrashers for three years. I do know something about them. The Senators I don't know as much about, but I do know that they're a good team. That does not mean that they would blow out the Thrashers, however. As I said, in my opinion that's a ludacris statement, to say that the Senators would "blow them out".

Fedorov left because he wanted a leadership role. I've been following the Red Wings my entire life and you don't even trust me when I tell you this? It's simple fact. He left because he wanted to be the go-to guy. Ever notice how he plays better when Yzerman is sick or injured? That's because he was the go-to guy and had more playing time. He was the leader of the team when Yzerman was gone, which is what he wanted all the time. Zetterberg had nothing to do with it.

Yes, Osgood is having a good year. Osgood is not, however, one of the best goalies in the league. That has to be one of the most blatantly ignorant statements I've ever read. Osgood has never, and most likely will never, be one of the best goalies in the game. He's having a good year. He's a good goalie. Is he one of the best goalies? Absolutely not.

I will continue to debate both you and Lroling because it's an opinion. "Good" is an opinion word. They have a "good" draft, but they're not known for it, in my opinion. To say that I am wrong because of my opinion is an asinine statement and I can't help but laugh at it.

@Both:

I'll search for the links where Fedorov himself specifically stated that it was because he wanted a leadership role. He got along great with the younger players like Datsyuk (also Russian) and Zetterbeg. I would say that you're "wrong" and to "stop arguing me" simply because you are not educated on the subject, but that'd be ignorant. ;) It's funny how I am automatically wrong about the Avalanche, yet you are automatically correct about the Red Wings. How's that work again? :p

[Ayepecks]

Fedorov wanting a leadership role:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/...7-fedorov_x.htm

http://www.nhl.com/columns/wigge/fedorov102103.html

http://i.tsn.com/nhl/articles/20030820/488754.html

"I wanted more responsibility, more ice time, which I think will come with being the No. 1 center here," Fedorov said Wednesday at a news conference.

http://msnbc.com/news/955293.asp

I'll get you more later :D

EDIT:

A couple more:

http://www.detroitsportsrag.com/articles/twatg072303.asp

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0FCM/8_3...ml?term=fedorov

Oddly enough, none of those articles even mention Zetterberg or Datsyuk involved in Fedorov's decision...

Edited January 4, 2004 by Scorpio

[BMac]

@BMac:

I've been following the Thrashers for three years. I do know something about them. The Senators I don't know as much about, but I do know that they're a good team. That does not mean that they would blow out the Thrashers, however. As I said, in my opinion that's a ludacris statement, to say that the Senators would "blow them out".

Fedorov left because he wanted a leadership role. I've been following the Red Wings my entire life and you don't even trust me when I tell you this? It's simple fact. He left because he wanted to be the go-to guy. Ever notice how he plays better when Yzerman is sick or injured? That's because he was the go-to guy and had more playing time. He was the leader of the team when Yzerman was gone, which is what he wanted all the time. Zetterberg had nothing to do with it.

Yes, Osgood is having a good year. Osgood is not, however, one of the best goalies in the league. That has to be one of the most blatantly ignorant statements I've ever read. Osgood has never, and most likely will never, be one of the best goalies in the game. He's having a good year. He's a good goalie. Is he one of the best goalies? Absolutely not.

I will continue to debate both you and Lroling because it's an opinion. "Good" is an opinion word. They have a "good" draft, but they're not known for it, in my opinion. To say that I am wrong because of my opinion is an asinine statement and I can't help but laugh at it.

Ok the Thrashers is an opinion thing but based on history I'd say Ottawa would wipe the floor with them. Watch an Ottawa game one day and you'll see a fast, highly offensive team that would destroy Nurminen. Anyways this is opinionated so lets just shut up about it.

Fedorov. Yzerman was always there. That wasn't the problem. The thing is that new players kept emerging but never with a style like Fedorov's. Datsyuk was similar but Fedorov was more highly touted than him. Then Zetterberg comes along, with a very similar style and is being dubbed the next Red Wing leader. Of course Fedorov would feel put out. Where was his damn respect. Stop throwing money out there. You and I both know it wasn't the reason he left or would have stayed. It was far more complicated. So stop sounding silly and using figures that we agree has no relevance.

As for Osgood your bias for Detroit shines through. You're bitter cause you let him go and it was a huge mistake. It's not just the stats this year. Did you not see the facts I posted about him leading the wings to 60 some odd wins. He's always been great but it's ignorant critics like yourself that keep holding him down. Sorry dude but watch some old highlights he's always been strong.

Colorado is a strong drafter. Your bias is blinding me here. I'll never get you to say otherwise because of your sheer hated for the Avs. Just shut up about it. Your ignorance will go nowhere.

I am loving these heated debates. They are very intriging. Keep it up guys!