Dissapointed in the Windows 10 Tech preview so far

[Active.]

Carpal Tunnel, and sedentary behavior associated with most office PC setups are hostile to our health.

What the hell does sedentary behavior have to do with touch vs. k+m on a Desktop system?! Feels like your grasping at straws there.

[Dot Matrix]

What the hell does sedentary behavior have to do with touch vs. k+m on a Desktop system?! Feels like your grasping at straws there.

Resting hands on the desk = low energy output = sedentary behavior.

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Writing doesn't require a mouse. Holding your arms up for a few seconds isn't going to do you harm.

 

For a few seconds, no. For hours every day? Yes. Try writing a thousand lines of code on a touch screen monitor.

[Dot Matrix]

For a few seconds, no. For hours every day? Yes. Try writing a thousand lines of code on a touch screen monitor.

Who's saying for a few hours?

[spenser.d]

The problem is that most people see it as an either/or.

Some people can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that when you add a touch screen to a laptop/desktop you don't loose the KB and mouse.

 

I'm fully in your camp, I own a Lenovo Yoga and love the touch screen functionality.

Just use the right tool for the job, that's all

I've been using a Yoga for almost two years now. Have to agree - for a laptop form-factor, the added touch input ability is basically a must-have for me going forward. It's an excellent addition to just KB or KB+M. Windows 8 was what made that touch input a viable option and made it work so smoothly - I had an HP touchscreen laptop previously with Windows 7 and rarely used the touchscreen because the experience in Windows 7 is pretty terrible for it even though it's a great OS otherwise.

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Who's saying for a few hours?

 

Well, if you're saying that touch/voice will completely replace keyboards and mice, you have to consider how people use keyboards and mice. I can't imagine writing code or photoshopping images with touch alone. That means you need a keyboard and mouse on standby anyway.

[Stoffel]

I've been using a Yoga for almost two years now. Have to agree - for a laptop form-factor, the added touch input ability is basically a must-have for me going forward. It's an excellent addition to just KB or KB+M. Windows 8 was what made that touch input a viable option and made it work so smoothly - I had an HP touchscreen laptop previously with Windows 7 and rarely used the touchscreen because the experience in Windows 7 is pretty terrible for it even though it's a great OS otherwise.

 

I've been using mine for about a year and a half. Before that I ran Windows 8 on a non-touch laptop. Even then I was fine with it, but like you say, adding the touch capabilities made Windows 8 really shine. I could never go back to a non-touch laptop.

Still I use Windows 8.1 daily on my media pc which only has KB+M.

Well, if you're saying that touch/voice will completely replace keyboards and mice, you have to consider how people use keyboards and mice. I can't imagine writing code or photoshopping images with touch alone. That means you need a keyboard and mouse on standby anyway.

 

I think he only said you don't need a mouse for word processing. Using Touch and KB is equally fine.

Again, nobody here says for touch to be successful KB+M need to go away. They work great together

But I use more Touch+KB then Mouse+KB these days

[Dot Matrix]

Well, if you're saying that touch/voice will completely replace keyboards and mice, you have to consider how people use keyboards and mice. I can't imagine writing code or photoshopping images with touch alone. That means you need a keyboard and mouse on standby anyway.

You're putting words in my mouth. The keyboard isn't the same as a mouse. They're two separate devices. You can have touch and a keyboard.

[Forjo]

How is it hypocritical?  This isn't about using multiple OSs remember, but making one OS that can accommodate them all.  That's the play so you can't compare how goofy Apple or Droid does it.  It has never been about 'not' being able to grapple with app or game interfaces not being standardized.

 

What about Windows is inconsistent again?  Sounds like Mac ###### but I'll reserve judgement.

 

Lets put that old chestnut to bed and move forward, which means removing (in 8) two very different OSs mashed together with questionable connectors.

 

I already stated how it's hypocritical. People are able to use desktop apps (and mobile apps) with widely dissimilar interfaces with no public outcry, yet the same people cannot adapt to Metro.

 

Again, Windows applications are not consistent. Try finding settings in Office, Acrobat, and Quickbooks. All are in different places and called different things.  Menus in browsers are not in the same places, and throw in games and all consistency is gone. Yet the same people using these products cannot adapt to Metro.

 

Let's not put anything to bed. I don't find the connections questionable -- just in need of a bit of polish. I don't see two different operating systems, just two different styles of apps. And as for moving forward, we've already done that. Backing away from Metro, in the opinions of those of us who appreciate it, is moving backward.

 

-Forjo

[Forjo]

Even if you dictate your writing - voice recognition will almost certainly improve - the keyboard would still be the best way to make corrections.

 

For awhile, at least. But advances in AI will allow dictation to evolve into understanding. In that case, correcting will not only be just as easy via voice, but the system you're speaking to will conversationally check your work, verify it understands what you mean, and make suggestions as a writing coach or professor might.  I think it's entirely possible that voice-first entry will arrive before direct neural interfaces.

 

Even if voice recognition was absolutely perfect A LOT of big business is done in "cube farms". Can you imagine the chaos if everyone in every cube was talking their computers. How about on the metro or other public transit? Voice recognition is fine when you're by yourself but it falls apart as you add more and more people. Even if each is perfect and listening only the the relevant person it would be highly annoying to have all that nonstop chatter around you.

 

Yet people are able to communicate with others over the phone in both of those environments. Computers will learn this as well. Already Bluetooth headsets are able to filter out most if not all noise except for the sounds made by the person wearing the headset.  And advances in machine learning (as well as machine hearing) will allow computers to discern speakers just as well if not better than humans do. And don't forget about machine vision -- it won't be long before computers can reliably read lips. Voice dictation with the voice!

 

Think bigger, guys. It may take awhile, but the keyboard (and the mouse) will not be with us forever.

 

-Forjo

[PGHammer]

For a few seconds, no. For hours every day? Yes. Try writing a thousand lines of code on a touch screen monitor.

And who says that you need either touch OR a keyboard to do ANY writing?  Have we forgotten Dragon Dictate (part of every version of Dragon Naturally Speaking that has been ever written for Windows)?  It has been around since Windows 9x - and has supported NT since NT4WS.  It's still around today - in fact, the current version supports Windows 8.1 back to 7.  It doesn't JUST plug in on the application level, either - it is available to Windows on the OS level.  (In short, not just Word, but Write - or even Notepad, or anything else - it can, in fact, be used to voice-control Windows itself - which has been the case as long as DD has existed.)  Whether or not folks would use it - or anything else - has to do with comfort with how to do it - period.  While I'm not all that comfortable doing so, I can't say that it is impossible - because I have seen it done with my own two eyeballs.  (Not on a video, and not in an ad, but in front of me - live.)  It may sound improbable - but impossible it isn't.

 

That is one thing about how OS features - even third-party features - get used - don't DARE confuse improbable with impossible - that way lies getting egg on your face.  (And as I said in another thread, I'd MUCH rather EAT egg than wear it, thank you.)

[PGHammer]

Even if voice recognition was absolutely perfect A LOT of big business is done in "cube farms". Can you imagine the chaos if everyone in every cube was talking their computers. How about on the metro or other public transit? Voice recognition is fine when you're by yourself but it falls apart as you add more and more people. Even if each is perfect and listening only the the relevant person it would be highly annoying to have all that nonstop chatter around you.

Then the "cubists" wear headsets that plug into their PCs (which, in point of fact, more and more call centers are, in fact, doing - the "phone" is their PC; it's been capable of exactly that going back to Windows 2000).  Ever heard of 3CX?  It's PBX software that runs atop Windows Server - in fact, ANY version of Windows Server from 2003 forward.  3CX supports both "soft phones" and traditional PBX handsets.  Two of the biggest names in PC headsets are Sennheiser and Plantronics - both started in the call-center headset business.  (That is, in fact, STILL Plantronics' biggest business.)  So even "cube farms" are no obstacle - in fact, if anything, such "cube farms" are the likeliest candidates to deploy such a system.  (http://www.3cx.com)

[PGHammer]

I think the biggest hope, particularly for a preview environment, is to allow us to mix and match as many of the Metro elements as possible.  I'd love to be able to customize the hotcorners, Start customization is still pretty anemic etc.  Metro has lots of good concepts when viewed individually.

 

How is it hypocritical?  This isn't about using multiple OSs remember, but making one OS that can accommodate them all.  That's the play so you can't compare how goofy Apple or Droid does it.  It has never been about 'not' being able to grapple with app or game interfaces not being standardized.

 

What about Windows is inconsistent again?  Sounds like Mac ###### but I'll reserve judgement.

 

Lets put that old chestnut to bed and move forward, which means removing (in 8) two very different OSs mashed together with questionable connectors.

Oh stop.  No one but the yahoos users are 'balking' at adding support.  Its disagreement, as shown above about what 'efficient' means to good mousers vs poor ones.  Given your nonsensical ramblings of your love of the keyboard in a GUI, you are in the latter group.

 

Three years later and you still can't see the forest for the trees.

Dashel - you are preaching to the choir - I'm on YOUR side of the argument.

 

I really DON'T get why the argument against ModernUI even exists - except that these are the UI equivalents of ideological extremists; which strike me, at least, as being akin to extremists outside of IT (including religious extremists - regardless of religion).  Touch support - or lack of it - doesn't bother me in the slightest; remember, my hardware doesn't support it.  If anything, the larger targets that touch calls for make mousing easier - not harder.  That is, in fact, a rather obvious example of how touch support benefits mouse users.  Yet the extremists are saying it's a "bad thing" - how, may I ask?

 

The bigger targets for my mouse is something that benefits me day-in and day-out, every single day.  Why should I - or any mouse user - want to go back to where the targets were smaller?

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

And who says that you need either touch OR a keyboard to do ANY writing?  Have we forgotten Dragon Dictate (part of every version of Dragon Naturally Speaking that has been ever written for Windows)?  It has been around since Windows 9x - and has supported NT since NT4WS.  It's still around today 

 

I've never found it versatile or sufficient enough for use in a lot of areas; I'm not saying it isn't a worthwhile tool, it is just one of many... which is why the Dragon suite isn't commonly used. Not everything lends itself to dictation.

 

Though I am looking forward to Cortana integration on desktops, which would make efficient controls.

 

It is just that keyboard + mouse aren't likely to disappear. A lot of users go out of their way to use mechanical keyboards and ultra high DPI mice. I can see things like the Surface where you have hybrid controls.

[hairbawl87]

Is Windows Media Player still version 12? lol...

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

Is Windows Media Player still version 12? lol...

 

I'm actually quite happy with the feature set of WMP... there are other options available, but I would rather have it stay how it is rather than change into some iTunes-like monster.

[+kpo6969 Subscriber¹]

Yes

Windows Media Player 12.0.9841.0

[DConnell Member]

For a few seconds, no. For hours every day? Yes. Try writing a thousand lines of code on a touch screen monitor.

 

What kind of idiot would try to do thousands of lines of code on a touchscreen keyboard? Touch has its benefits, but long-term typing isn't one of them.

[PGHammer]

I've never found it versatile or sufficient enough for use in a lot of areas; I'm not saying it isn't a worthwhile tool, it is just one of many... which is why the Dragon suite isn't commonly used. Not everything lends itself to dictation.

 

Though I am looking forward to Cortana integration on desktops, which would make efficient controls.

 

It is just that keyboard + mouse aren't likely to disappear. A lot of users go out of their way to use mechanical keyboards and ultra high DPI mice. I can see things like the Surface where you have hybrid controls.

I'm not saying that it does, or has to.  For me (at least), it isn't about either/or.

 

However, because I know something is both possible and (for some users, even Windows users), not only plausible, but necessary, why would I (or Microsoft, or anyone else, for that matter) get rid of extensibility - which is supposed to be one of Windows' greatest features, after all?

 

I'm not saying even that some users going out of their way to use mechanical keyboards or high-DPI pointing devices is a "bad thing" - I have one of the few mechanical wireless keyboards that has ever existed, and the fact that it is both is why I bought it.  However, claiming that it is anything other than a user preference would be "blowing smoke" on MY part - and I refuse to do that.  While I have user-interaction preferences, they need not be exclusive.  All that I have ever asked is that the option be there.

What kind of idiot would try to do thousands of lines of code on a touchscreen keyboard? Touch has its benefits, but long-term typing isn't one of them.

DConnell - some folks will try to use the most extreme of arguments to try and justify their own just-as-extreme position.

[+Zagadka Subscriber²]

What kind of idiot would try to do thousands of lines of code on a touchscreen keyboard? Touch has its benefits, but long-term typing isn't one of them.

 

That was kinda my point, thanks

 

There is no need to take a black and white view of touch versus keyboard, they both have their places and uses... but desktop computing isn't exactly touches' strong point.

[+Asmodai MVC]

Then the "cubists" wear headsets that plug into their PCs (which, in point of fact, more and more call centers are, in fact, doing - the "phone" is their PC; it's been capable of exactly that going back to Windows 2000).  Ever heard of 3CX?  It's PBX software that runs atop Windows Server - in fact, ANY version of Windows Server from 2003 forward.  3CX supports both "soft phones" and traditional PBX handsets.  Two of the biggest names in PC headsets are Sennheiser and Plantronics - both started in the call-center headset business.  (That is, in fact, STILL Plantronics' biggest business.)  So even "cube farms" are no obstacle - in fact, if anything, such "cube farms" are the likeliest candidates to deploy such a system.  (http://www.3cx.com)

 

I work as a defense contractor doing programming and my office is arranged into cubes (my particular room has 6 cubes in it but there are much larger rooms with more cubes as well) as is most of the offices on the base.  It is NOT a call center however and no one wears headsets of any kind.  Heck phones are hardly even used with most work communication being done via email.  Having everyone talking to their computers, even if the computer understands everything absolutely perfectly and only listens to the correct person would be a huge problem in most of the offices here because of the annoyance of the constant chatter for the other workers, again even if the computers had no problem breaking it down.  I'm not saying voice recognition isn't going to advance or doesn't have a place but anyone who thinks it's going to ENTIRELY REPLACE the keyboard and mouse is mistaken.  I can't even imagine how annoying it would be on the metro if everyone on a packed train was talking to their devices at the same time.  Now most people have their heads down texting and are at least quiet even if you do have the odd unnecessarily loud speaking person having a phone conversation (then getting annoyed people are listening to their conversation as they yell it through the public metro)

Is Windows Media Player still version 12? lol...

Even if they are going to update it that is a consumer application and wouldn't be shown until the consumer preview early next year, not this current tech preview.

[Mugwump00]

Then the "cubists" wear headsets that plug into their PCs (which, in point of fact, more and more call centers are, in fact, doing - the "phone" is their PC; it's been capable of exactly that going back to Windows 2000).  Ever heard of 3CX?  It's PBX software that runs atop Windows Server - in fact, ANY version of Windows Server from 2003 forward.  3CX supports both "soft phones" and traditional PBX handsets.  Two of the biggest names in PC headsets are Sennheiser and Plantronics - both started in the call-center headset business.  (That is, in fact, STILL Plantronics' biggest business.)  So even "cube farms" are no obstacle - in fact, if anything, such "cube farms" are the likeliest candidates to deploy such a system.  (http://www.3cx.com)

 

Such visions are limited to environment where there are no issues regarding eavesdropping, discretionary conversations, private communications etc.  I've never had a huge number of at-work conversations of a really sensitive nature, yet every environment I've every worked in has plentiful meeting rooms, privacy booths, break-out areas etc. for inter-personnel chat, and I'll be damned if I've ever wanted much of what I am doing with my PC to be common knowledge with my immediate colleagues, or vice-versa.   Do many people's workflow benefit from being audible? 

[Dashel]

Well, nothing much else to see here if the fringe is going to just circle back to inability to adapt nonsense.  You guys only continue to hurt that which you say you love though such rigidity and amateurism.

 

How do you know you are a n00b?  You think there is no downside to large hit areas.

[Dot Matrix]

How do you know you are a n00b?  You think there is no downside to large hit areas.

 

What about large hit areas? There's nothing wrong with them. Using a mouse doesn't mean you need tiny hit areas that are easily over shot.

[redvamp128]

The notebook in the testing pool dates back to Vista (that is, in fact, what shipped on it before it went to the "sandbox" - the original owner is a veteran of Afghanistan AND Iraq) - the second owner upgraded it to 7 (which is what was shipping on the same notebook when HP EOL'd it).  When I got it, I replaced 7 with 8.1 (the Technical Preview had not even been announced yet) and then replaced it with the Technical Preview (it was my first bare-metal install of said OS, in fact). 

 

It was this SAME notebook (which goes back to Vista) which REALLY caused me to bounce off the ceiling - rather hard.  And it had nothing to do with compatibility issues.

 

It had to do with LACK of compatibility issues.

 

In all my hardware and software (applications and games) compatibility testing so far, just two games (both from the same publisher) and exactly zero applications have failed.  Also, exactly zero HARDWARE doesn't work.

 

Meanwhile, we still have some folks that are saying DO NOT ADVANCE - the new OS is too different.

 

And this after discovering a pretty good-sized hill of hard empirical data that our hardware has basically been up on jackstands at the very minimum back to 7.  (Notice I did not say "mountain" - I DID however, say that it's at least a good-sized hill; I don't have ANY modern hardware in my testing pool.)

 

And if this is the case with older hardware, how much less is more modern hardware underutilized?

What did and does your response have anything to do with my statements  ( unless you were responding to  the part of the upgrade of an upgrade that was upgraded and are relating your own experiences.)? I was just responding to the point of the question --  Why would people want to install an upgrade and was providing some answers.  That and also telling the person that those machines are out there where people might change a part here and there but then upgrade and then upgrade that upgrade.  

I

have ran into issues where for example some programs fail to run after an upgrade.  And it is because of this testing that "patches" or compatibly modes are created.  

 

The statement was that one would want developers to also test their product on upgrades to see if there are potential problems. I have also ran into the issue that some programs will fail to uninstall after an upgrade and then will not install again.  Some of these programs do not run after an upgrade, and do not even allow a re-install either.

Most of those problems can trace back to the installer latching onto the previous other OS configuration instead of creating a new one.

 Which developer testing of these on upgrade platforms shows and then they change the installer to rectify this problem.