poll Windows 10 Preview (How do you like it?)

[Jim K Global Moderator]

I didn't say that the feedback was invalid - it's when the feedback is complaints that it's not a previous OS (as opposed to a bug report about either compatibility OR usability) that such feedback is, in fact, less than useless.

 

Further I am not one of those insisting that a new OS act exactly like an older OS - that would be rather pointless.

 

If I am evaluating an OS - any OS - as a possible alternative or replacement for the OS I normally run, why would I insist on it acting exactly like what I'm looking to replace?  If I am going to do that, I'm not really looking to move, am I?

 

This thread is "Windows 10 Preview (How do you like it?)".  Don't you think it should be a safe haven for people to state their feelings and how they like Windows 10?  If you don't...then tell me what the difference is between this and the "Windows 10 Technical Preview" thread?

 

This is a thread where I should be able to state that Windows 10's implementation of various Modern UI elements throughout the OS is unsightly, revolting, grotesque, horrid, foul, hideous...etc...and not have to justify my feelings to you because you believe it to be beautiful, pleasing, agreeable, lovely, etc.  Know what I mean?

[PGHammer]

This thread is "Windows 10 Preview (How do you like it?)".  Don't you think it should be a safe haven for people to state their feelings and how they like Windows 10?  If you don't...then tell me what the difference is between this and the "Windows 10 Technical Preview" thread?

 

This is a thread where I should be able to state that Windows 10's implementation of various Modern UI elements throughout the OS is unsightly, revolting, grotesque, horrid, foul, hideous...etc...and not have to justify my feelings to you because you believe it to be beautiful, pleasing, agreeable, lovely, etc.  Know what I mean?

I'm not asking that you justify them - to me or anyone else. However, why insist on blowing smoke up my butt by outright lying?

Objective objections are one thing - subjective ones are quite another.

Further, objective objections CAN be dealt with - subjective objections, all too often, cannot - especially by Microsoft (who is the company under the gun here)

[Jim K Global Moderator]

I'm not asking that you justify them - to me or anyone else. However, why insist on blowing smoke up my butt by outright lying?

Objective objections are one thing - subjective ones are quite another.

Further, objective objections CAN be dealt with - subjective objections, all too often, cannot - especially by Microsoft (who is the company under the gun here)

 

Come again?  Who is lying?

 

Who are you?  Why would anyone have to justify their subjective feelings to you?  So you think objective feelings are blowing smoke your butt...sensitive much?

[+Fahim S. MVC]

If you look at the Desktop other than just a black (or wallpapered) background where programs run, I think you'd agree that many Modern UI elements have taken over the Windows Environment.  Thus, Modern UI has supplanted the typical "Desktop" by taking over many facets of said Environment.  This is how I interpreted Rickkins remarks.

 

Honestly speaking, I don't understand why this is regarded as a bad thing beyond a subjective view that is a bit Marmite* like with very polar views as to whether it looks good or not.  I personally feel the the same of the previous style of user interface elements (I have hated them for quite some time, I have felt the control panel has needed a fundamental rebuild and the start menu up to and including Windows 7 had a very poor user experience etc, etc.) to the point that any change is a refreshing one, just they had been around so long that those that didn't like them had given up on them fundamentally changing (I am very much in this camp).

 

People are very much entitled to their opinion but it is clear that Microsoft has decided to go all in on this UI style - if you don't like it, then you will either eventually put up and shut up, or move to an alternative OS.  I guess in the mean-time opinions will be expressed and cause a lot of friction in the community as people 'pick sides' - with neither being able to understand why the other holds the opinion they do (very much like Marmite).

 

This polar view has existed to some extent every time any OS changes fundamental look and feel.  This is not too different from the changes between WIndows 3.11 and 95 (there was nothing wrong with my Program Manager), 95 and XP (there was nothing wrong with WIndows Classic), XP and 7 (there was nothing wrong with my taskbar), or Mac OS 9 and OS X (too many changes to mention).  In every case, the new style has endured (maturing over time), and the debate has subsided, until the next fundamental change happens and the cycle starts again.

 

In certain cases, the previous way has been available as a fallback, in others the changes are so fundamental that the previous way has had to go through wholesale replacement (and clearly these are the cases which cause the most uproar).  The modern UI changes in Windows 8 and now Windows 10 do fall into the latter bracket.

 

Technically speaking the Modern method of application development brings lots of very necessary improvements, which I am happy to go through if challenged but won't bore everyone unless I am asked.

 

Sinofsky himself has written a couple of interesting blog posts on the subject (endurance of legacy functionality).

 

In summary - yes, the changes are going to create polar views, it's normal with such fundamental changes.

 

* a food spread sold in the UK, which people either love or hate. I've never met anyone who thinks it is just ok.

[MikeM97]

Come again?  Who is lying?

 

Who are you?  Why would anyone have to justify their subjective feelings to you?  So you think objective feelings are blowing smoke your butt...sensitive much?

 

I asked myself those too ... Still no answer here .

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Honestly speaking, I don't understand why this is regarded as a bad thing beyond a subjective view that is a bit Marmite* like with very polar views as to whether it looks good or not.  I personally feel the the same of the previous style of user interface elements (I have hated them for quite some time, I have felt the control panel has needed a fundamental rebuild and the start menu up to and including Windows 7 had a very poor user experience etc, etc.) to the point that any change is a refreshing one, just they had been around so long that those that didn't like them had given up on them fundamentally changing (I am very much in this camp).

 

People are very much entitled to their opinion but it is clear that Microsoft has decided to go all in on this UI style - if you don't like it, then you will either eventually put up and shut up, or move to an alternative OS.  I guess in the mean-time opinions will be expressed and cause a lot of friction in the community as people 'pick sides' - with neither being able to understand why the other holds the opinion they do (very much like Marmite).

 

This polar view has existed to some extent every time any OS changes fundamental look and feel.  This is not too different from the changes between WIndows 3.11 and 95 (there was nothing wrong with my Program Manager), 95 and XP (there was nothing wrong with WIndows Classic), XP and 7 (there was nothing wrong with my taskbar), or Mac OS 9 and OS X (too many changes to mention).  In every case, the new style has endured (maturing over time), and the debate has subsided, until the next fundamental change happens and the cycle starts again.

 

In certain cases, the previous way has been available as a fallback, in others the changes are so fundamental that the previous way has had to go through wholesale replacement (and clearly these are the cases which cause the most uproar).  The modern UI changes in Windows 8 and now Windows 10 do fall into the latter bracket.

 

Technically speaking the Modern method of application development brings lots of very necessary improvements, which I am happy to go through if challenged but won't bore everyone unless I am asked.

 

Sinofsky himself has written a couple of interesting blog posts on the subject (endurance of legacy functionality).

 

In summary - yes, the changes are going to create polar views, it's normal with such fundamental changes.

 

* a food spread sold in the UK, which people either love or hate. I've never met anyone who thinks it is just ok.

 

I do not disagree with this, however, as I mentioned in another post this particular forum should be one where you can moan and groan if you wish without necessarily having to explain.

 

I personally think that the infiltrated Modern UI elements are very ugly, so far I mixed reactions of Windows 10..  That is how I feel about 10 at this moment.  I've explain my reasons in various other threads and shouldn't have to in this one.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

I do not disagree with this, however, as I mentioned in another post this particular forum should be one where you can moan and groan if you wish without necessarily having to explain.

 

I personally think that the infiltrated Modern UI elements are very ugly, so far I mixed reactions of Windows 10..  That is how I feel about 10 at this moment.  I've explain my reasons in various other threads and shouldn't have to in this one.

 

I wasn't trying to suggest to don't have the right to grumble about the direction of Windows 10.  You have every right to.  You don't have to justify yourself to me or anyone (neither do those with a contrary opinion, who think that it is better than before, have any obligation to justify themselves to you).

 

My point was more that the user interface that you so staunchly hold up as an example of 'what good looks like' includes innovations which caused just as much, if not more, contention through the evolution of Windows.  The fact that Microsoft has got it right through the evolution of the product, sometimes through massively fundamental change, suggests that they are actually still on track.  I'm glad to see Microsoft not suffering from 'innovators dilemma' and being bold.  But that is just my opinion.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Mind you, my comments were not necessarily directed at you but more or less the context of what you wrote in relation to how others have responded to other members.

[PGHammer]

I wasn't trying to suggest to don't have the right to grumble about the direction of Windows 10.  You have every right to.  You don't have to justify yourself to me or anyone (neither do those with a contrary opinion, who think that it is better than before, have any obligation to justify themselves to you).

 

My point was more that the user interface that you so staunchly hold up as an example of 'what good looks like' includes innovations which caused just as much, if not more, contention through the evolution of Windows.  The fact that Microsoft has got it right through the evolution of the product, sometimes through massively fundamental change, suggests that they are actually still on track.  I'm glad to see Microsoft not suffering from 'innovators dilemma' and being bold.  But that is just my opinion.

What I meant by "lying" is presenting subjective as objective - I doubt anyone on Neowin is unaware of the difference between the two.

[JakeB]

Installed on VM VMPlayer and it took about a hour. Installed on a physical machine and it was 21% after 4 hours when I went to bed. Woke up 6 hours later and it was installed.

[Ian W]

i tried its beyond horrible, this new bastardized start menu is even worse than before, bring back the real start menu.

I could say the same thing about the new Start screen.

[chrisj1968]

chrisj - I ALSO tend to shy away from (and have never recommended) "brand X" hardware; in fact, I build my own desktops. It's not easy to BYO portable, and you have to jump through quite a few more hoops (and pay a far larger price) to do so - which is why I stick to known-brand laptops - such as HP, Dell, and Toshiba. However, even Toshiba has been known to make a few lemons - despite laptops being their only business (at least in North America) - though they HAVE been in their Satellite (value) end of things. Then there very much IS the issue of cost/price - how much MORE do you pay for a Qosimo compared to a similar-spec Satellite?

Is the Qosimo driven by a DX12-ready (though mobile) GPU? That seems to be a particularly tetchy issue right now for both AMD and NVidia alike - said issue has, in fact, forced me to stall on upgrading my GTX550Ti (which works fine in all flavors of Windows I'm running, using the same drivers across the board). However, I'm putting this out as a general question - didn't both companies have issues with their early Windows 8-specific drivers during the days of the Developer Preview? (The issues DID in fact get solved - with the Consumer Preview.) Driver issues with pre-production OSes aren't surprising - it's happened before, and with Windows. That is also why I was surprised that the Technical Previews have had stellar support for my trackpad - which is where Windows has traditionally had issues.

 

Sorry I didn't see this post sooner. But only recently did Nvidia release the 960 was it? I think it is the or was the only DX12 card for the desktop. I don't expect DX12 cards in Qosmio until AFTER 10 ships.

[DConnell Member]

I could say the same thing about the new Start screen.

 

I DO say the same thing about the new Start Screen!

[Ian W]

I DO say the same thing about the new Start Screen!

I still don't understand how anyone could prefer a cramped column without application sorting, semantic zoom, et cetera . . . Perhaps I've harped on this enough? I've thought about creating a topic about the issues with the new Start menu / Start screen but I am not sure if that would do anything. It has become apparent that Microsoft really doesn't care

[nosense]

I still don't understand how anyone could prefer a cramped column without application sorting, semantic zoom, et cetera . . . Perhaps I've harped on this enough? I've thought about creating a topic about the issues with the new Start menu / Start screen but I am not sure if that would do anything. It has become apparent that Microsoft really doesn't care

[Ian W]

Is the surface team the same team  developing windows?  

No. The Surface team is part of Microsoft, though, so I would assume that their comments reflect the opinions of other individuals or teams within the company as well.

[MikeM97]

Is the surface team the same team developing windows?  

 

I hope not .

[PGHammer]

Sorry I didn't see this post sooner. But only recently did Nvidia release the 960 was it? I think it is the or was the only DX12 card for the desktop. I don't expect DX12 cards in Qosmio until AFTER 10 ships.

Mobile Maxwell released with the GTX8xxm (which predates the GTX9xx) - further, even GTX9xx is merely "big Maxwell" - ahead of it was GTX750 and GTX750Ti ("baby Maxwell") - all the above (but only those GPUs) are DX12.

[Dot Matrix]

The next Insiders build really needs an updated Continuum UX, or that's it. I'm afraid Windows 10 will be a lost cause on Surface and other tabs. I find it hard to believe anyone inside Microsoft finds a Windows 7 workflow more "efficient" than the Immersive UX of Windows 8.1 on anything other than a desktop. I was really excited for Continuum, but now I see that Microsoft is running in fear for reasons unknown. C'mon guys, Windows 7 failed on tablets for a reason, let's not repeat history!

 

* The always on taskbar adds no functionality, takes up space, and gets in the way.

* Spartan doesn't offer a chromeless UX, and again the controls just get in the way, and waste space for those that want a full screen UX.  

* The vertical layout of everything reduces readability on *horizontal* tabs (and desktop monitors!), and reduces the amount of tiles that can be viewed at once.

* All Apps is again left to a sliver of real estate, and again gives me the cramped feeling which made me hate the old Start Menu in Windows XP and Windows 7. I have a whole screen full of pixels that are going to waste here!

* OneNote preview is a complete step backwards since the loss of the fullscreen UX, and the radial menu.

 

I believe that Windows 10 could be a great OS, it's taking the best of Windows 7, but needlessly threw away the best of Windows 8.1! Don't make that mistake!

[Stoffel]

The next Insiders build really needs an updated Continuum UX, or that's it. I'm afraid Windows 10 will be a lost cause on Surface and other tabs. I find it hard to believe anyone inside Microsoft finds a Windows 7 workflow more "efficient" than the Immersive UX of Windows 8.1 on anything other than a desktop. I was really excited for Continuum, but now I see that Microsoft is running in fear for reasons unknown. C'mon guys, Windows 7 failed on tablets for a reason, let's not repeat history!

 

* The always on taskbar adds no functionality, takes up space, and gets in the way.

* Spartan doesn't offer a chromeless UX, and again the controls just get in the way, and waste space for those that want a full screen UX.  

* The vertical layout of everything reduces readability on *horizontal* tabs (and desktop monitors!), and reduces the amount of tiles that can be viewed at once.

* All Apps is again left to a sliver of real estate, and again gives me the cramped feeling which made me hate the old Start Menu in Windows XP and Windows 7. I have a whole screen full of pixels that are going to waste here!

* OneNote preview is a complete step backwards since the loss of the fullscreen UX, and the radial menu.

 

I believe that Windows 10 could be a great OS, it's taking the best of Windows 7, but needlessly threw away the best of Windows 8.1! Don't make that mistake!

 

All Apps should really take over the real estate of the pinned tiles on the start menu/screen

I hope they still change this.

[Dot Matrix]

All Apps should really take over the real estate of the pinned tiles on the start menu/screen

I hope they still change this.

Agreed. Either expand to the edge of the menu, or fill the screen (a la 8.1) in Continuum.

[+Warwagon MVC]

The next Insiders build really needs an updated Continuum UX, or that's it. I'm afraid Windows 10 will be a lost cause on Surface and other tabs. I find it hard to believe anyone inside Microsoft finds a Windows 7 workflow more "efficient" than the Immersive UX of Windows 8.1 on anything other than a desktop. I was really excited for Continuum, but now I see that Microsoft is running in fear for reasons unknown. C'mon guys, Windows 7 failed on tablets for a reason, let's not repeat history!

 

* The always on taskbar adds no functionality, takes up space, and gets in the way.

* Spartan doesn't offer a chromeless UX, and again the controls just get in the way, and waste space for those that want a full screen UX.  

* The vertical layout of everything reduces readability on *horizontal* tabs (and desktop monitors!), and reduces the amount of tiles that can be viewed at once.

* All Apps is again left to a sliver of real estate, and again gives me the cramped feeling which made me hate the old Start Menu in Windows XP and Windows 7. I have a whole screen full of pixels that are going to waste here!

* OneNote preview is a complete step backwards since the loss of the fullscreen UX, and the radial menu.

 

I believe that Windows 10 could be a great OS, it's taking the best of Windows 7, but needlessly threw away the best of Windows 8.1! Don't make that mistake!

 

Yes lets take a 30 inch monitor and have the entire screen taken up. That is a waste of pixels. I agree, on tablets it should be full screen as that's more touch friendly. But on a desktop, leave it in a little box on the left where it belongs. I don't need it taking up my entire screen.

[Dot Matrix]

* The always on taskbar adds no functionality, takes up space, and gets in the way.

* Spartan doesn't offer a chromeless UX, and again the controls just get in the way, and waste space for those that want a full screen UX.  

* The vertical layout of everything reduces readability on *horizontal* tabs (and desktop monitors!), and reduces the amount of tiles that can be viewed at once.

* All Apps is again left to a sliver of real estate, and again gives me the cramped feeling which made me hate the old Start Menu in Windows XP and Windows 7. I have a whole screen full of pixels that are going to waste here!

* OneNote preview is a complete step backwards since the loss of the fullscreen UX, and the radial menu.

To add to this:

 

* Tablet Mode should load into Start by default. Loading into the desktop is pointless, and counter productive!

* Vertical layout reduces tablet "thumbability". IE: Not being able to objects within thumb's range by sliding left or right.

* FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY STOP WITH THE NUMEROUS AND LARGLEY USELESS IN APP HAMBURGER MENUS.

[Dashel]

Hamburger is staying, we're just waiting for the flyouts to move to the left.  Until that happens, they really can't enable the new edge gestures. 

 

Speaking of, if Start is 'cramped', then what is your solution for the size of the flyout, as its the same?

[DConnell Member]

Yes lets take a 30 inch monitor and have the entire screen taken up. That is a waste of pixels. I agree, on tablets it should be full screen as that's more touch friendly. But on a desktop, leave it in a little box on the left where it belongs. I don't need it taking up my entire screen.

 

I still don't see how actually using the whole screen for program presentation is wasteful. To me putting it in a small strip, leaving most of the screen idle seems wasteful. After all, you can't interact with anything not in the Menu, at least not without deactivating the Menu, so all that visible desktop is to me just wasted space. Leave the inline list for All Apps on Windows Phone where it actually makes sense to me.

 

Or better yet, let us choose which presentation suits us.