win10 Microsoft to block Classic Shell in Windows 10: here is why

[Max Norris]

Microsoft is not listening and the only direction they have been going with windows 10 is backwards by replacing useful things with metro garbage.

In the windows 10 start menu where are the cascading menus? where is the 'switch user/lock/sleep/hibernate' ?

The truly modern windows 7 start menu had all of this and much more.

Gah going to keep with the not listening bit and ignoring the parts where they are huh?  

 

Submenus are there, just in a different presentation.  The cascading bit that 7 had was actually a bit detrimental as stuff tended to scroll left and right, looked bad and sometimes made it hard to read, especially if you go several menus deep.  A "pager" type setup actually makes more sense and would be a cleaner presentation.. one of the reasons I prefer ClassicShell on 7 as when you've got a lot of submenus, the "fixed size cascading" thing is a pain in the ass to navigate.  This isn't even unique to Windows, other OS's have pulled this off and it works great.  It's pretty obvious where switch/lock/etc are.   And 7's start menu is hardly "modern", considering it really hasn't changed for almost a decade, and is still based on a design thats much older than that.  

[Luc2k]

Not testing it isn't feedback.  It's a cop-out.  They already know some people aren't going to use it, it's painfully obvious that you can't make something that 100% of users are going to like, seriously old news.. do you honestly think otherwise?  Would really love to hear about that OS that nailed it 100% across the board, I've yet to see it.  They don't care about a third party replacement that some people are going to use.. it's a given,  not their concern and not the point of the test.    Also like I originally replied.  Sorry if I type too fast, I still breathe though.

I doubt there are many, if any, who test every single aspect of an OS and offer feedback, and that includes employees. Sure, the Start Menu is a low hanging fruit, but I let others, who care for it in its current form, offer feedback. MS should care about 3rd party replacements because they're very popular, and implement similar features as an alternative. If I recall correctly, didn't XP have two versions of Start Menu? Anyway, we both know that is not very likely to happen since it's hard to peddle live tiles in a (to quote Dot) legacy Start Menu.

[The Evil Overlord]

Microsoft is listening. However, they're not interested in moving backwards. Windows XP Start Menu was released over 14 years ago, and was left to rot. It's done with and not coming back, and nor should it. Don't like Live Tiles? Shrink them down to small, or just unpin them, and carry on. That's all you have to do. 

 

The Windows 10 TP already has more features enabled in Start alone than the previous Start Menus has had previously combined. Heck, the Windows 10 Start has more features coming in the form of Continuum, (features which Classic Shell looks to break), and they're not going to remove those. Live Tiles are too much of an important feature. Continuum is too much of an important feature. Dynamic functionality is key, and that's something the classic menu (nor Classic Shell) doesn't have.

 

That being said, they're still looking for your feedback, usage, and crash reports. They can't collect that data with these third party additions running.

This is one of the reasons I was trying to stay out of the thread, not you personally dot, but the post, I get it, you hate classic start menu, but that same classic start menu controls everything on my pc excluding my monitors and speaker system. I find it hard to believe there can be more control in the new start menu, but I can concede that there may he a more streamlined way to get to a certain feature, but as I said, I like the classic start and control panel, and so long as 7 is supported, I see no reason to switch.

[Dot Matrix]

If I recall correctly, didn't XP have two versions of Start Menu? Anyway, we both know that is not very likely to happen since it's hard to peddle live tiles in a (to quote Dot) legacy Start Menu.

XP had the classic Start Menu, if that's what you mean. None of that exists anymore. The code that supported the classic aspects of Windows have all been removed in versions since, and there's no reason to bring those back, wasting resources to create and support.

This is one of the reasons I was trying to stay out of the thread, not you personally dot, but the post, I get it, you hate classic start menu, but that same classic start menu controls everything on my pc excluding my monitors and speaker system. I find it hard to believe there can be more control in the new start menu, but I can concede that there may he a more streamlined way to get to a certain feature, but as I said, I like the classic start and control panel, and so long as 7 is supported, I see no reason to switch.

Start still controls every aspect of the PC. In Windows 10, it's a lot more customizable, functional, and as you said, streamlined.

[Luc2k]

XP had the classic Start Menu, if that's what you mean. None of that exists anymore. The code that supported the classic aspects of Windows have all been removed in versions since, and there's no reason to bring those back, wasting resources to create and support.

I didn't say I want that back, although it's funny because the W10 Start Menu looks like it with live tiles removed. Anyway, they can implement whatever they like and I'm sure they'll have even more resources to spare and fewer support calls when adoption will be lower than expected.

[Max Norris]

Sure, the Start Menu is a low hanging fruit, but I let others, who care for it in its current form, offer feedback. MS should care about 3rd party replacements because they're very popular, and implement similar features as an alternative.

So you want to use an alternative.. that's great.  They're not going to stop you with the final release, and it's not up to Microsoft to worry about third party software, sounds like you'd probably be better off waiting for next year's preview. Do you actually know how many start menu alternatives are out there? You expect Microsoft to pull features from each and every one, "just in case?" Some of them are quite different from the "I want XP back" knockoffs too. And that's just the bloody start menu, are they going to have to babysit every possible option from other file managers, shells etc etc too? Going to have an options dialog a mile wide, never mind a UX consistency nightmare.. unrealistic doesn't begin to describe it. Let them focus on one and get it right, if you want something else, go nuts and change it up.

 

If I recall correctly, didn't XP have two versions of Start Menu?

And so does 10.. start menu, start screen. You want something else, install it.

[BajiRav]

Microsoft is not listening and the only direction they have been going with windows 10 is backwards by replacing useful things with metro garbage.

 

In the windows 10 start menu where are the cascading menus? where is the 'switch user/lock/sleep/hibernate' ?

 

The truly modern windows 7 start menu had all of this and much more.

Put your idea(s) here and they will listen if enough people like what you want.

https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestions

Let's see how many people vote for remove live tiles completely from Windows 10.

[The Evil Overlord]

On a side note, it's amazing how much windows 8 and onwards has torn the community apart. Cmon guys, it's just an OS, like it, it'll be available really soon, hate it, 7's not going anywhere (posted within the confines of windows, other operating systems also available )

[Dot Matrix]

On a side note, it's amazing how much windows 8 and onwards has torn the community apart. Cmon guys, it's just an OS, like it, it'll be available really soon, hate it, 7's not going anywhere (posted within the confines of windows, other operating systems also available )

No more than any other previous release. The Internet just gives the vocal minority a way to create noise.

[Luc2k]

So you want to use an alternative.. that's great.  They're not going to stop you with the final release, and it's not up to Microsoft to worry about third party software, sounds like you'd probably be better off waiting for next year's preview. Do you actually know how many start menu alternatives are out there? You expect Microsoft to pull features from each and every one, "just in case?" Some of them are quite different from the "I want XP back" knockoffs too. And that's just the bloody start menu, are they going to have to babysit every possible option from other file managers, shells etc etc too? Going to have an options dialog a mile wide, never mind a UX consistency nightmare.. unrealistic doesn't begin to describe it. Let them focus on one and get it right, if you want something else, go nuts and change it up.

Just the most popular ones, say with over 25% usage out of all of them. The other things you mention don't draw as much ire, so no, I wouldn't expect them to implement alternatives.

 

As for UX, I wouldn't worry. Consistency was never MS's forte and, in my opinion, the current flat design is the ugliest UI since W2000 anyway.

And so does 10.. start menu, start screen. You want something else, install it.

I have and will continue to do so until MS offers a satisfactory alternative.

No more than any other previous release. The Internet just gives the vocal minority a way to create noise.

Yeah, those Modern lovers just can't take a hint.

[DJGM]

This is all about MS blocking Classic Shell from being installed in the Windows 10 Technical Preview ... but what about the other 3rd party Start Menus

like Start8 and StartIsBack, among others? It isn't fair if Classic Shell is the only one being blocked. All the others should be equally blocked as well.

 

One thing worth pointing out here, Classic Shell puts a links back to modern Start on its Start menu, so you've still got access to the Live Tiles.

I can't really comment about the other 3rd party Start Menus, but I do know Classic Shell doesn't disable the modern Start by default.

[B.Jay]

Then don't use it. You are not "everyone", some people will find it useful. What's the point of updating an OS if there's no actual growth? If new features were never added we'd still be back with Program Manager, oh boy. And congrats on missing the point of the "block" too, another one who apparently scrolls to the end without actually reading a thread.

 

I'm sure you're not going to like it, but compared to "Modern" the good old progman.exe would actually be a major upgrade in terms of UI usability.

 

And I'm aware about the reason of the block. Thank you very much.

 

Microsoft is listening. However, they're not interested in moving backwards. Windows XP Start Menu was released over 14 years ago, and was left to rot. It's done with and not coming back, and nor should it. Don't like Live Tiles? Shrink them down to small, or just unpin them, and carry on. That's all you have to do. 

 

The Windows 10 TP already has more features enabled in Start alone than the previous Start Menus has had previously combined. Heck, the Windows 10 Start has more features coming in the form of Continuum, (features which Classic Shell looks to break), and they're not going to remove those. Live Tiles are too much of an important feature. Continuum is too much of an important feature. Dynamic functionality is key, and that's something the classic menu (nor Classic Shell) doesn't have.

 

That being said, they're still looking for your feedback, usage, and crash reports. They can't collect that data with these third party additions running.

 

You consider the Tiles an "important feature"? In that case you surely don't do any serious work with your computer, other than tossing the mouse cursor around on the screen and sitting there beholding said live tiles in plain awe 24/7.

 

The tiles are about as useful as their related apps - not at all.

 

Nice the Email tile tells me when I get mail, but the related app is as worse (if not worse) as the actual outlook.com website. You know .... even Thunderbird does better in each and every regard.

 

Nice the Skype tile launches the related Modern Skype app, but that one is even worse than "Skype for Windows Desktop".

 

Nice the Weather tile tells me about the weather, seems Microsoft just wants to raise a Army of mindless Zombies too dumb to look out of the window to figure it out.

 

Nice there are tons of other "Tiles" that do nothing but being launcher entries for yet another awful modern app.

 

Yeah, I can totally see how the live tiles are a "important feature"...

 

And thank you for pointing out that I can shrink or remove them. That's actually the first thing I did after I installed Windows 8.1... uninstalling all of that LOLware (and I did the same with W10TP).

[Max Norris]

I'm sure you're not going to like it, but compared to "Modern" the good old progman.exe would actually be a major upgrade in terms of UI usability.

Choked up some coffee laughing at that, thanks for that. You honestly think that ProgMan is a step up from what's more or less functionally identical to the previous start menus with additional stuff added? You're either trolling or high. It's probably the most brain dead launcher ever conceived.. but hey, you have it built in now. Pin your start menu folder to the desktop and presto, enjoy your "launcher", because that's all it was, a super-simple file-manager like collection of icons with zero functionality. Huge step up there.

 

And I'm aware about the reason of the block. Thank you very much.

Don't think you do, sorry. Not even going to bother with the rest of the post.. "too stupid to look out a window?" Ugh. May as well toss your smartphone into the trash, bring back pagers while you're at it too.

[Kazama Levi]

The version number change is because of bad coding matching "Windows 9" with "Windows 95" and "Windows 98" instead of using the version numbers. It has absolutely nothing to do with the UI.

That's really hilariously far-fetched

"Oh noes, people who code for Windows can't find their arse with both hands, so we need to nanny them and jump over a Windows version right to Windows 10! Else, if their always poorly coded programs make a badly formed version number request, it would explode our Windows!"

 

It definitely is to distance themselves from the Metro/tiles disaster, which is why there isn't any Windows 8-like start screen anymore in Windows 10, they don't want to scare away any more poeple than they already did with Windows 8.

[nosense]

Continuum isn't even in lastest build, In January we will see a consumer build.

That's really hilariously far-fetched
"Oh noes, people who code for Windows can't find their arse with both hands, so we need to nanny them and jump over a Windows version right to Windows 10! Else, if their always poorly coded programs make a badly formed version number request, it would explode our Windows!"

 

It definitely is to distance themselves from the Metro/tiles disaster, which is why there isn't any Windows 8-like start screen anymore in Windows 10, they don't want to scare away any more poeple than they already did with Windows 8.

[Dot Matrix]

The start screen is still in Windows 10. It was never removed. Not sure how you're under the impression that it's gone.

[Ian W]

It definitely is to distance themselves from the Metro/tiles disaster, which is why there isn't any Windows 8-like start screen anymore in Windows 10, they don't want to scare away any more poeple than they already did with Windows 8.

As already mentioned by Dot, the Start screen is still present in Windows 10.

Moreover, the commonly held notion that the number 10 was chosen to distance the product from Windows 8 is not logical. If that was truly Microsoft's intention with the brand, then why stop at the number 10? It's not very far from the number 8. Why not distance the product even further by using the letter X, or the number 11, or the number 12, and so on? To truly distance the product from Windows 8 (and by extension, previous versions of Windows that used a numbering scheme), the company could have used an 'aspirational' moniker such as "Threshold," yet that was not the case.

[PGHammer]

No.  They are distracting and I do not need them.  Would you like to tell me other ways to use my system.

 

I'd rather Microsoft focus on stability, core features, speed, etc. ... tiles are vile.

Then ignore/don't use them - tiles (and their usage) has been optional from the beginning.  The same applies to ModernUI applications and games - haven't I been pointing out that, other than evaluation, I hardly use any (and where I DO use them, it tends to be either games or on my notebook)?

 

The reason why I personally use live tiles is for the same reasoning behind the original gadgets (or ActiveDesktop, for that matter) - so I don't have to open the whole big (and relatively porky) Win32 (or even ModernUI) application needlessly.  If there is something that came in that a tile is alerting me to (which is, after all, the purpose behind the tile), I can THEN open the associated application.  There are overlaps between live tiles (the Mail and Notification Center tiles overlap, for example - both can get alerts from Outlook) - however, I'm aware of that, and only pay attention to Outlook-based alerts in the Mail tile.  Still, it's MY choice to use the tiles - I'm perfectly free to ignore them (just as lots of folks were free to ignore gadgets in Vista forward - and did).

And if I am going to see the StartScreen (and the tiles that are normally there) less, then I need a space on mini-Start (which will be the default) where I can tile-watch.  Nobody - least of all Microsoft - is DEMANDING that you use tiles.  I use them because they are useful - if they weren't useful, I would NOT use them - I'd ignore them instead.

 

Quite honestly, I think a lot of you (if not most of you) are quite aware that you are free to NOT use a new feature - what you really want is less choice - a Windows pruned down to the absolute minimum and only for desktops (not tablets, not slates - in most cases, not even for notebooks or laptops).  Windows (as an operating SYSTEM - not an operating environment atop MS-DOS) hasn't been that light ever. (I've pointed out - in this very forum - that it was NT, not 9x, that embraced the first luggables - a rather odd tactic for a workstation and server-based OS.)  Oddly enough, such a niche-ified OS exists - it's called WindowsRT; why is it an even larger failure than Windows 8.x?

[Order_66]

Cascading menus are a UX nightmare. Microsoft has said as much. Those are done with, just as you'll never see drop downs in Windows again.

 

And the switch user/lock options are available by clicking on your user tile.  

 

A UX nightmare? they work fine in windows 7, classic shell makes it work just fine (for free even) in windows 8.x, must not be too bad of a nightmare, that excuse sounds more like a cop out or simply arrogance trying to force consumers into their metro garbage scheme, just as clicking a metro "tile" to access something that took 1 click, now click a tile then click again.

 

Backwards thinking right there folks!

[Order_66]

Put your idea(s) here and they will listen if enough people like what you want.

https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestions

Let's see how many people vote for remove live tiles completely from Windows 10.

 

You mean just like when they removed metro from windows 8?

 

/s

[Order_66]

Continuum isn't even in lastest build, In January we will see a consumer build.

 

 

From the looks of it continuum needs to be shelved altogether.

[Max Norris]

You mean just like when they removed metro from windows 8?

Probably more like when they started adding the classic-style menu back, added other features that some were wanting and such. They're never going to completely remove the Modern stuff, can stop crying over it as it's an OS designed to run on desktops and mobile devices. Not a fan of it on my desktop and I don't use it, thank God I can get around that arrogance and contempt and install something else.. On my tablet though ye olde desktop paradigm is stupidly clunky at best to use.. "good old XP" and even 7 to a slightly lesser extent on a tablet sucks balls. This sort of thing is long overdue.

[nosense]

From the looks of it continuum needs to be shelved altogether.

Ya because you have first experiance on something that not even out yet...

[Order_66]

Ya because you have first experiance on something that not even out yet...

 

That's why I said "from the looks of it", the screenshots I seen show the usual typical metro ugliness.

[nosense]

That's why I said "from the looks of it", the screenshots I seen show the usual typical metro ugliness.

Very narrow minded of you, I rather use\test before i judge. Continuum woulden't even be a factor if you're mainly on desktop.