Is Microsoft ignoring the desktop again?

[Noir Angel]

The issue with desktop software (that Microsoft has to face) is not lack of desktop software in and of itself, but lack of NEW desktop software - in other words, development of new desktop software is stillborn - and pretty much HAS been since XP.  The hardware requirements for Windows itself have remained unchanged since (egad) Vista.  Where is software development now - in fact, where has it been since Vista's RTM?  The Internet.  Cloud.  Social.  Mobile.  It's certainly NOT Win32/64 (except games).  For all the claims of the desktop not being dead, from an outsider's POV, the lack of new desktop application software (compared to any, let alone all, of the platforms I pointed to) would certainly have it appearing that way.  What is selling in the desktop-application space are upgrades - and you need, at most, a skeleton crew to write upgrades.

 

There is not enough desktop-software in development to justify a desktop-only version of Windows - period.  If anything, there is less desktop-software development (as a percentage of all software development) than there was when Windows NT launched (by that, I mean the original NT 3.1).  Why are you in denial of THAT basic fact?

 

Just off the top of my head...

 

Content production software, productivity software, web browsers, web editing, device management software (iTunes and the like). The argument that the desktop must be dead because there aren't a buttload of new apps coming out in simple terms is complete BS, applications are upgraded to take advantage of new API's and released as updates mostly but it doesn't mean that the desktop is dead, development of desktop class applications is just as active as it ever was. It also depends on what markets you profile, if you only profile the brain dead masses that just want the next tinkertoy of course you'll end up with skewed data but if you look at other markets you'll still see there's more than enough need for desktop applications. There's still plenty of useful stuff to do on a desktop that would be painful on a tablet.

 

It's also worth reminding users that it's not just desktop users that suffer because of Microsoft's half-assed decisions either, Windows 8.x and 10 (even with WIMboot) will occupy a substantially larger installation footprint on a tablet than either iOS or a relatively vanilla Android setup. And whether you get any extra functionality for that space occupation is debatable, you certainly won't on the sub 8 inch devices that have no desktop.

[PGHammer]

Javik - I think that the issue is more of users basically having ignored (or taken for granted) what Windows is and has been that is the bigger issue.  The software space changed massively merely since Vista went RTM - and it was largely created by that five-year XP-driven stall.  What happened to desktop-software development during those five years?  Other than upgrades, it dried up.  And by the time the stall ended, what were the major targets for needing new software?  None of it has anything to do (directly) with the desktop.  Websites, social media, the cloud, and (biggest of all) mobile development.  It is, basically, the post-desktop era.  Users are, at most, purchasing upgrades to existing software - not buying NEW software (not for the desktop) - how ELSE do you think that Windows has gotten away with unchanged basic hardware requirements since Vista?  The desktop is not the primary player it used to be.  Plain and simply, the desktop has to be able to play nice with other options - even in Windows as an OS.  Otherwise, Windows might as well become OS X.

 

Do we WANT Windows becoming OS X?

[PGHammer]

Did I say that there haven't been upgrades to existing software?  I said that upgrades are all there HAS been - and upgrades are NOT priced the same as new software, for the most part - if anything, the trend is toward vastly-reduced price (or free) upgrades.  Other than outlier software (such as the oft-quoted 3DS MAX), name new software for desktop users that required newer hardware?  Office didn't - for the past two upgrades (2007->2013).  For the most part - except gaming - you can take advantage of new APIs with existing hardware - no less than Windows 7 proved that.  However, folks are not spending as much money - as upgrades DO cost less than new software - name ANY company that gets away with charging the same amount for upgrades as new software.  (No - Microsoft has ALWAYS charged less for upgrades - so they aren't one.)

 

As far as storage space issues, that issue isn't unique to tablets - and never has been; how many of you bought a laptop, notebook, or even a DESKTOP because of the cheap price - only to discover that the OEM shortchanged you on the platter-driven boot drive being too small?  (That is STILL a problem in the reconditioned/refurbished PC space - including desktops, notebooks, and laptops, and used to be a problem in the NEW spaces for all the above.)  Basically, the problem you are referring to isn't a new one - and it still comes down to due-diligence by buyers and users alike.  OEMs shortchanging storage space to meet price targets is not new - or news; why are we letting them get away with it?  (In short, that is no more Microsoft's fault than the same issue was/is in the non-tablet spaces.)

 

I STILL didn't say that desktop software is dead - I said that it isn't a major player as it used to be.  Why are you insisting otherwise when ALL the metrics disagree with you?

[ParadiseLost]

Javik - I think that the issue is more of users basically having ignored (or taken for granted) what Windows is and has been that is the bigger issue.  The software space changed massively merely since Vista went RTM - and it was largely created by that five-year XP-driven stall.  What happened to desktop-software development during those five years?  Other than upgrades, it dried up.  And by the time the stall ended, what were the major targets for needing new software?  None of it has anything to do (directly) with the desktop.  Websites, social media, the cloud, and (biggest of all) mobile development.  It is, basically, the post-desktop era.  Users are, at most, purchasing upgrades to existing software - not buying NEW software (not for the desktop) - how ELSE do you think that Windows has gotten away with unchanged basic hardware requirements since Vista?  The desktop is not the primary player it used to be.  Plain and simply, the desktop has to be able to play nice with other options - even in Windows as an OS.  Otherwise, Windows might as well become OS X.

 

Do we WANT Windows becoming OS X?

 

If by that you mean a desktop OS that still knows that it's a desktop OS, yes please.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

 Do we WANT Windows becoming OS X?

Yes please! 

[PGHammer]

If by that you mean a desktop OS that still knows that it's a desktop OS, yes please.

Then what makes you ANY different than all those that claim to want a tablet-specific OS?

 

Answer - it doesn't.

 

You want to live in a niche.

 

That makes it up to you - simply choose hardware that caters TO that niche.

 

Desktop-only (no touch or anything else) hardware is still being built.  You also have the option to assemble the pieces and build it yourself.

 

Nothing in Windows - not even 8.1 or 10 - is blocking you from doing that.

 

I RUN Windows (both 8.1 AND 10 Technical Preview) on such hardware every single day - it's called a desktop PC.

 

It's not my fault that you are (quite literally) unable to adjust to the change in terms of where desktop software sits.  Microsoft is adjusting - even a lot of USERS are adjusting.  Desktop application compatibility is not even the least-bit problematical in Windows 8.1 (despite the lack of Start menu) - you yourselves have admitted that!

 

It's not Microsoft's fault, either.

 

Nobody (and nothing) requires you to use ModernUI-based software.  Not other users, or developers, and especially not Microsoft.

 

It is an option - one that can be ignored.

 

Or are you worried that you will see it tempting you - like the food item you complain you are allergic to (when said "allergy" is psychosomatic in origin), and you will be tempted?

 

Don't go blaming outside forces (whether it be Microsoft or anyone else) for you insisting on hiding.

 

That is YOUR choice.

[HawkMan]

Running multiple apps at the same time is multitasking. Just because they are not displayed at the same time does not mean they are not running. And apps don't auto quit. They only quit when you swipe up on them. Anyways, who cares about multitasking on a Windows tablet when the apps are crap anyways?

 

umm no, iOS will kill background apps after 5-10 minutes. install colloquy or whatever the IRC app is, connect to neowin, switch to safari, 5-10 minutes later you get a popup telling you colloquy will now be shut down.

 

also multitasking on a pad that doesn't do video editing and such like a full power PC is fairly useless when the interface is single app centric. on a single app centric os interface tombstoning actually makes more sense.

Dying - no.  (Nobody is claiming that.)  However, notice what applications are being used to make that claim - that you YOURSELVES are using to make that claim.  Not everyone runs 3DS MAX - in fact, not even half of Windows users have a USE for 3DS MAX.  In fact, what was the last major update for 3DS MAX, and when was it?  The issue with desktop software (that Microsoft has to face) is not lack of desktop software in and of itself, but lack of NEW desktop software - in other words, development of new desktop software is stillborn - and pretty much HAS been since XP.  The hardware requirements for Windows itself have remained unchanged since (egad) Vista.  Where is software development now - in fact, where has it been since Vista's RTM?  The Internet.  Cloud.  Social.  Mobile.  It's certainly NOT Win32/64 (except games).  For all the claims of the desktop not being dead, from an outsider's POV, the lack of new desktop application software (compared to any, let alone all, of the platforms I pointed to) would certainly have it appearing that way.  What is selling in the desktop-application space are upgrades - and you need, at most, a skeleton crew to write upgrades.

 

There is not enough desktop-software in development to justify a desktop-only version of Windows - period.  If anything, there is less desktop-software development (as a percentage of all software development) than there was when Windows NT launched (by that, I mean the original NT 3.1).  Why are you in denial of THAT basic fact?

 

max has mayor updates at least once a year... 2014 or 2015 is the latest version.

[PGHammer]

umm no, iOS will kill background apps after 5-10 minutes. install colloquy or whatever the IRC app is, connect to neowin, switch to safari, 5-10 minutes later you get a popup telling you colloquy will now be shut down.

 

also multitasking on a pad that doesn't do video editing and such like a full power PC is fairly useless when the interface is single app centric. on a single app centric os interface tombstoning actually makes more sense.

 

max has mayor updates at least once a year... 2014 or 2015 is the latest version.

However, it's still a niche/outlier application - less of a user base than Office, actually.  And what are the hardware requirements (compared to even Office)?  And when was the last time they increased?

 

The last is the factor I have been referring to - desktop software, like it or not, is indeed becoming a niche - if looked at strictly in terms of a user-base, it has BECOME a niche.  It's not a fun thing to realize - especially if you live IN that niche.  Being in denial is exactly that - being in denial; it certainly doesn't change the facts on the ground.

 

I live in that niche - like a lot of people still do.  The difference is that I realize that it IS a niche.  Being in denial about the facts on the ground won't do me any good at all.

[ParadiseLost]

Then what makes you ANY different than all those that claim to want a tablet-specific OS?

 

Answer - it doesn't.

 

You want to live in a niche.

 

That makes it up to you - simply choose hardware that caters TO that niche.

 

Desktop-only (no touch or anything else) hardware is still being built.  You also have the option to assemble the pieces and build it yourself.

 

Nothing in Windows - not even 8.1 or 10 - is blocking you from doing that.

 

I RUN Windows (both 8.1 AND 10 Technical Preview) on such hardware every single day - it's called a desktop PC.

 

It's not my fault that you are (quite literally) unable to adjust to the change in terms of where desktop software sits.  Microsoft is adjusting - even a lot of USERS are adjusting.  Desktop application compatibility is not even the least-bit problematical in Windows 8.1 (despite the lack of Start menu) - you yourselves have admitted that!

 

It's not Microsoft's fault, either.

 

Nobody (and nothing) requires you to use ModernUI-based software.  Not other users, or developers, and especially not Microsoft.

 

It is an option - one that can be ignored.

 

Or are you worried that you will see it tempting you - like the food item you complain you are allergic to (when said "allergy" is psychosomatic in origin), and you will be tempted?

 

Don't go blaming outside forces (whether it be Microsoft or anyone else) for you insisting on hiding.

 

That is YOUR choice.

Hey, you asked the question. You're wrong about Microsoft not forcing it though.

[patseguin Global Moderator]

Can somebody explain how the desktop is dying and going away?

I seriously doubt we will see a repacement for classic style apps like Blender or 3DS Max or the Adobe suite THAT HAVE THE EXACT SAME FUNCTIONALITY. How can I possible render a video on a tablet when I have terabytes of high resolution assets? Since when is Visual Studio available on tablets and is NOT a classic app?

We won't see replacements for the content creations software. It would make things way too complex when a software has dozens and dozens of tools and options.

I've kind of felt like the desktop has been dying away slowly. With the arrival of powerful tablets, it seems like people are gradually moving towards replacing their desktops. I personally find I spend abaout 80% of my computing time on my tablet. I really only ever use my PC when I want to play a game.

[ParadiseLost]

I've kind of felt like the desktop has been dying away slowly. With the arrival of powerful tablets, it seems like people are gradually moving towards replacing their desktops. I personally find I spend abaout 80% of my computing time on my tablet. I really only ever use my PC when I want to play a game.

 

Precisely. I don't need to run tablet applications on my desktop. I've got my tablet for that.

[HawkMan]

However, it's still a niche/outlier application - less of a user base than Office, actually.  And what are the hardware requirements (compared to even Office)?  And when was the last time they increased?

 

The last is the factor I have been referring to - desktop software, like it or not, is indeed becoming a niche - if looked at strictly in terms of a user-base, it has BECOME a niche.  It's not a fun thing to realize - especially if you live IN that niche.  Being in denial is exactly that - being in denial; it certainly doesn't change the facts on the ground.

 

I live in that niche - like a lot of people still do.  The difference is that I realize that it IS a niche.  Being in denial about the facts on the ground won't do me any good at all.

 

well... games are per definition a desktop app, and not really niche...

 

also hw reqs for max is ... floaty... you could run it on an old c2d or worse, just depends on what you're doing, and partly how patient you are

[PGHammer]

How is Microsoft forcing hardware choice on you?

 

The option to build your own PC remains - Windows 10 doesn't do ANYTHING to that option.  (Other than my notebook, I've built or upgraded every computer I have ever owned - all have been desktops; if anything, Windows 10 WILL continue the trend.)

If I need a Start-menu bringback (of the several offered by third parties), I can install one.  (However, I don't need one.)

Contrariwise, if I need/want a touch-screen display, I can, in fact, ADD one.  (I don't want one - my current non-touch-capable monitor suits me just fine.)

My desktop applications - with three exceptions (all of which are games, and all with the SAME point of failure - the shared launcher common to all three, and it's NOT Steam) all work with the Windows 10 Technical Preview (9926 and all earlier versions).  This is the case today (on both desktop and notebook).

Every application that got "fired" with an OS changeover got replaced by one that works better for me personally.  How much did touch support have to do with those replacements?  Absolutely nothing - because my hardware doesn't have any.

 

Where ModernUI applications have failed is due to choices made by the developer - I don't have any reason to pin the blame on the API.  (Bad applications are bad applications - regardless of their APIs.)

I got into BYPOC because OEMs either didn't take what I wanted into their design decisions or overcharged compared to buying the parts and doing the work myself - it's why I actually ENCOURAGE folks to build their own.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be upset because the desktop is not the "big cheese" it used to be.

 

All I am saying is that it's largely the fault of the userbase that that is the case.

 

Who is buying all the tablets and smartphones?

 

Who is making decisions based entirely on price - NOT capabilities?

 

All Microsoft (or anyone else can do) is look at what users are doing with their money.

 

By and large, users are purchasing tablets, slates, smartphones, and other portable hardware - not desktops.

 

I have a desktop PC AND a notebook; there is no touch support on either one.

 

It's not what users are buying, however.

[HawkMan]

Precisely. I don't need to run tablet applications on my desktop. I've got my tablet for that.

 

the thing is, for many if not most users today the tablet is or at least could be their main if not only computer.

 

the only people who need a powerful desktop(power laptops included) are PC gamers and those in specialized professions or hobbies who need a workstation. as PG say, niche, though gamers are less so. office workers need a proper desktop mostly for the comfort, but this could just be a keyboard, mouse and big monitor hooked up to a tablet dock.

[HawkMan]

 

 

I have a desktop PC AND a notebook; there is no touch support on either one.

 

It's not what users are buying, however.

 

unfortunately, while MS is now giving the desktop niche some arguably deserved attention, they are regressing on their tablet support, the user group that is growing and actually still buying new hardware...

[Melfster]

I know lot of people who don't even have tablet. Tablets aren't really necessary now a days people have phablets and large phones.  We are moving towards post tablet era. 

[onewarmslime]

PGHammer, I don't know what you're going on about. Just because you assess there's not enough new programs for x86 doesn't mean the platform is dead. It's a 30 year old platform. Also, "if it ain't broken, why fix it".

 

 

QuoteQuoteNobody (and nothing) requires you to use ModernUI-based software.  Not other users, or developers, and especially not Microsoft.
 
It is an option - one that can be ignored.

 

Uhm, it's not really an option in Windows 8 cause you kinda have to use the start screen to search stuff (including programs). You can't ignore the Metro interface completely cause you'd have to use Settings from time to time and since they removed the network center you will have to when connecting to networks.

 

 

 

Quotethe only people who need a powerful desktop(power laptops included) are PC gamers and those in specialized professions or hobbies who need a workstation. as PG say, niche, though gamers are less so. office workers need a proper desktop mostly for the comfort, but this could just be a keyboard, mouse and big monitor hooked up to a tablet dock.

 

the only people who need a *powerful* desktop are gamers (and of course some professionals). However a lot of people prefer a "desktop" to laptops or tablets, but I guess it depends on your definition of "need". I don't "need" a desktop, but I definitely prefer it over other form factors. 

[PGHammer]

As I have pointed out, with three exceptions, my games run just fine on Windows 10 9926 today.

 

They aren't tablet-based, or Web-based - they are either Win32 or Win64.  (In short, not games that require emulation.)

 

I run either the same applications, or their direct upgrades, compared to what I was running under 7.  (In short, despite the OS change, my application mix didn't.)

 

Did I expect to be in that position?  Believe it or not, I didn't! (I made no secret of that - I didn't expect Windows 8 to let me run my desktop-focused software unchanged; however, it did.  And that was despite no Start menu - OR third-party emulation of one.)  So how are you and I different?  (Basically one way - you relied more of the Start menu than I did; you could not do without it - while I've done just fine without it.  That's it.)

 

Same hardware, and mostly the same applications - and absolutely the same application mix - no touch-screen-dependent applications whatever.  (Yes - ModernUI does support touch; however, it doesn't rely on it.)

 

That is the REAL difference - I don't (and refuse to) conflate use with reliance - just because an application can USE a method of interaction, does NOT mean that the application necessarily relies on it.  All mixing the two up does is leave you wearing egg on your face.

[HawkMan]

PGHammer, I don't know what you're going on about. Just because you assess there's not enough new programs for x86 doesn't mean the platform is dead. It's a 30 year old platform. Also, "if it ain't broken, why fix it".

 

 

 

Uhm, it's not really an option in Windows 8 cause you kinda have to use the start screen to search stuff (including programs). You can't ignore the Metro interface completely cause you'd have to use Settings from time to time and since they removed the network center you will have to when connecting to networks.

 

 

 

 

the only people who need a *powerful* desktop are gamers (and of course some professionals). However a lot of people prefer a "desktop" to laptops or tablets, but I guess it depends on your definition of "need". I don't "need" a desktop, but I definitely prefer it over other form factors. 

 

so, then you can use a docked tablet, and when you need want to, you grab it and go, hey desktop and tablet...

 

the thing is a few years ago, the people who "wanted" desktops where old people who wanted big screens, now these same users have realized how easy and convenient tablets are, and want these instead. so the users who "want" desktops" are diminishingly small.  leaving those who need it.

[onewarmslime]

QuoteQuoteQuoteso, then you can use a docked tablet, and when you need want to, you grab it and go, hey desktop and tablet...

 

Well, not everyone needs a computer on the go. Also  tablets have small and dirty screens, docks have small keyboards and at any rate if you're gonna use it with a dock and mouse might as well get a laptop. I'm not saying demand for desktops isn't dropping these days. But that's no reason to turn Windows into a dumbed down version of itself. Microsoft needs to realise it's co mpeting with OSX, not Android....

[PGHammer]

onewarmslime, I have never (as in ever) said that the desktop was dead - point me to a single post where I have said such a thing.  All I have said is that desktop development is flat - and it largely is.  I have a desktop PC - and I'm not a fan of flat desktop development at all.

 

StartScreen vs. Start menu - Searching both IS easier on the Screen compared to the Menu; that is something that I pointed out during the Consumer Preview, and I even pointed out exactly how; it is due to the enhancements given Search with 8 that 7 flat-out lacked.  Starting with All Applications (which both have), I can use WinKey+ FirstLetterOfApplication - this then eliminates everything EXCEPT applications (or their shortcuts) that begins with that letter.  Mini-Start (up to 9901) has such Search designed in; however, the current implementation does not.  That IS a regression, and needs fixing.  Further, note that the StartScreen/mini-Start narrowing is not in 7 or earlier; instead, you must rely entirely on the eyeball-driven Search - which is neither elegant OR fast. StartScreen/mini-Start Search is entirely keyboard-driven and keyboard-leverage-able, and it doesn't matter HOW big either Screen or menu gets.  It's something that a keyboard jockey can easily grasp.

 

In short, my "killer" feature is one aimed pretty darn squarely at keyboard users - touch-screen users require extra steps to even use it!

 

And the Network Center is still there - right-click the Network icon in the TaskTray.  (If it auto-hides - the default since 7 - unhide it, THEN right-click.)

On my notebook, I use it to connect to different wireless networks (where a choice is available); on my desktop, I use it for wireless-adapter testing.

Edited January 28, 2015 by PGHammer

[HawkMan]

Well, not everyone needs a computer on the go. Also  tablets have small and dirty screens, docks have small keyboards and at any rate if you're gonna use it with a dock and mouse might as well get a laptop. I'm not saying demand for desktops isn't dropping these days. But that's no reason to turn Windows into a dumbed down version of itself. Microsoft needs to realise it's co mpeting with OSX, not Android....

 

 

no a tablet is far more practical than a laptop, also the screen actually tends to be cleaner.

 

and they're not dumbing down the desktop, they're dumbing down the tablet functions, unnecessarily. the desktop is being anything but dumbed down.

[onewarmslime]

Quoteno a tablet is far more practical than a laptop, also the screen actually tends to be cleaner.

 

I meant if you ever use it as a tablet it has fingerprints all over the place.

Windows 8 was a step backwards for desktop computing. Full screen apps have no place in the desktop (yes, you can change the defaults but not everyone knows how to do that), and the duality of the OS is kind of a nag (desktop vs start screen, control panel vs PC settings, modern apps vs normal programs). W10 looks better in that area but I still don't think tiles have any use outside of a phone or a tablet.

[TAZMINATOR]

I meant if you ever use it as a tablet it has fingerprints all over the place.

 

So? that's what the cleaning wipes are for!

 

You clean TV, laptop, tablet, phone, etc. 

 

Same thing on touch based POS systems that restaurants use. They clean them everyday.

[onewarmslime]

shozilla, on 28 Jan 2015 - 23:49, said:

So? that's what the cleaning wipes are for!

 

You clean TV, laptop, tablet, phone, etc. 

 

Same thing on touch based POS systems that restaurants use. They clean them everyday.

 

I don't know man. I don't clean my TV or desktop screen every day