Is Microsoft ignoring the desktop again?

By Defcon
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Grand Master

HawkMan

Posted
Posted

I meant if you ever use it as a tablet it has fingerprints all over the place.

Windows 8 was a step backwards for desktop computing. Full screen apps have no place in the desktop (yes, you can change the defaults but not everyone knows how to do that), and the duality of the OS is kind of a nag (desktop vs start screen, control panel vs PC settings, modern apps vs normal programs). W10 looks better in that area but I still don't think tiles have any use outside of a phone or a tablet.

 

And as I said, you don't see fingerprints since any decent tablet has a glass surface with anti fingeprint coating, as such, my Miix2 11 has a much better picture than my laptop (tablets incidentaly tend to have better screens as well) and is generally cleaner. 

 

you should try one. I use my tablet, hours a day, my laptop hours a day, and my big desktop with a 27inch high quality monitor as well as a 24 inch extra monitor daily.  The tablet easily replaces the laptop, at least now that something is wrong with the cooling(I think the service people fubared it when it was in) so it can't play games, but it can't replace the desktop yet, though, the desktop is also the one I by far use the least. 

Rising Star

onewarmslime

Posted
Posted
HawkMan, on 29 Jan 2015 - 00:01, said:

And as I said, you don't see fingerprints since any decent tablet has a glass surface with anti fingeprint coating, as such, my Miix2 11 has a much better picture than my laptop (tablets incidentaly tend to have better screens as well) and is generally cleaner. 

 

you should try one. I use my tablet, hours a day, my laptop hours a day, and my big desktop with a 27inch high quality monitor as well as a 24 inch extra monitor daily.  The tablet easily replaces the laptop, at least now that something is wrong with the cooling(I think the service people fubared it when it was in) so it can't play games, but it can't replace the desktop yet, though, the desktop is also the one I by far use the least. 

I did try using my parents' ipad and I just can't get over the lack of keyboard and the fact that I either have to hold it all the time or place it in some awkward position on a table. each to his own I guess

Grand Master

TAZMINATOR

Posted
Posted

I did try using my parents' ipad and I just can't get over the lack of keyboard and the fact that I either have to hold it all the time or place it in some awkward position on a table. each to his own I guess

 

You can get external keyboard for tablet...

 

such as bluetooth or wireless keyboard so you don't have to use on-screen keyboard..   you can use it as laptop...  it's easy.  Even some of them included with kickstand which hold the tablet in any angle position.

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

And now since iOS 8 is out, you can type with one hand because you can select the word from the suggestions bar as you type.

Grand Master

HawkMan

Posted
Posted

I did try using my parents' ipad and I just can't get over the lack of keyboard and the fact that I either have to hold it all the time or place it in some awkward position on a table. each to his own I guess

 

Well the ipad isn't a great example anyway, it's advantage is that the air models are very light and easy to hold.

 

personally I prefer the bigger 11 inch models, you can hold them, or you can leave them in your lap in all kinds of positions when you're sitting comfortably, they also have bigger and better keyboards, especially on the windows tablets where you can actually switch to a full keyboard and not just the regular touch keboards which are good enough on smaller devices. 

 

Also the miix2 11 comes with a keyboard dock that can dock the pad with the keyboard in front so it works like a laptop with a usable keyboard, or in revers so you just use it as a pad and use the keyboard just as a support. 

 

the Surface pro/surface 3 of course has the kickstand and type covers which is probably preferable. 

Experienced

Rickkins

Posted
Posted

I know lot of people who don't even have tablet. Tablets aren't really necessary now a days people have phablets and large phones.  We are moving towards post tablet era. 

Quite right. IMHO, tabs were really never more than a passing fad. That fad has now passed, and while some will continue to buy them, and in some cases they really will be useful, their day in the sun has now passed. The so-called two-in-ones will most likely see a surge picking up where tabs left off.

Personally, I always found them(tabs) to be toys. I will not be replacing the one I had.

 

IMHO, of course...

Grand Master

HawkMan

Posted
Posted

Quite right. IMHO, tabs were really never more than a passing fad. That fad has now passed, and while some will continue to buy them, and in some cases they really will be useful, their day in the sun has now passed. The so-called two-in-ones will most likely see a surge picking up where tabs left off.

Personally, I always found them(tabs) to be toys. I will not be replacing the one I had.

 

IMHO, of course...

 

 

Not really, I don't see phones and phablets ever replacing tablets, in fact I suspect we'll rather see a shift towards bigger tablets in the 11-12 inch area as users switch to 5-5,5 inch phones, but realize they're WAY to small to sofasurf on. eventually they'll also realize they're to big to carry with them all over unless you're a woman, but for them they're just to big to use comfortably, so people will start to go back to 4-5 inch phones.

Rising Star

onewarmslime

Posted
Posted
shozilla, on 29 Jan 2015 - 00:09, said:shozilla, on 29 Jan 2015 - 00:09, said:shozilla, on 29 Jan 2015 - 00:09, said:shozilla, on 29 Jan 2015 - 00:09, said:

You can get external keyboard for tablet...

 

such as bluetooth or wireless keyboard so you don't have to use on-screen keyboard..   you can use it as laptop...  it's easy.  Even some of them included with kickstand which hold the tablet in any angle position.

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

And now since iOS 8 is out, you can type with one hand because you can select the word from the suggestions bar as you type.

 

 

point is, if you're gonna use a keyboard, might as well get a real laptop (with a full-fledged OS, ie windows or mac) instead of using a tablet as one.

Anyone can use any device they like. Fine by me. But the reality is, touch-enabled devices =/= mouse and keyboard devices, and in my opinion they should have different operating systems. Maybe they'll get it right with continuum, but color me dubious.

Grand Master

TAZMINATOR

Posted
Posted

point is, if you're gonna use a keyboard, might as well get a real laptop (with a full-fledged OS, ie windows or mac) instead of using a tablet as one.

 

Duh... I know that!!  I am not THAT stupid... 

 

I was talking about anyone who have tablet only... no laptops...  so I was saying that they can get external keyboard if they are not happy with on-screen keyboard.....  then if you are on the road, then take the tablet out... leave keyboard home..   you can watch movies or play games on it..  simple!  You can even take the keyboard with you if you want to..  I do the same.

 

Think about that!  There are many ways to use on tablet, including the accessories available for the specific tablet.

 

Tablets are great for taking them with you to the bar, restaurant, etc... so you can look up on news, sports, etc.. 

 

They use desktops, tablets, laptops, etc.. whatever they use for personal or business....  no matter if they are touch enabled or not. 

 

I don't care if the screen has fingerprints on them... I have cleaning wipes for that. 

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

point is, if you're gonna use a keyboard, might as well get a real laptop (with a full-fledged OS, ie windows or mac) instead of using a tablet as one.

Anyone can use any device they like. Fine by me. But the reality is, touch-enabled devices =/= mouse and keyboard devices, and in my opinion they should have different operating systems. Maybe they'll get it right with continuum, but color me dubious.

Except for two things, I would normally agree (remember, I have a notebook).

 

One problem is that too many notebooks have problematical touchpad/trackpad support (that is a major issue with Windows 8+ and earlier - the 10 Technical Previews, for me, are problem-free there).  Unless you have touch-screen support (where tablets tend to have it as normal due to smaller screen sizes), you have to allow space (and pay additional) for an external mouse.  (Doing one is bad enough - doing both is worse.)

 

Also, even if your touchpad/trackpad works fine, there IS that space issue - larger portables have larger screens (and therefore chew up more space) - what do you do if computing space is a premium?  (And it actually IS on the move, and all too often.)

 

I may actually wind up adding a tablet to the notebook - for those use cases where even the NOTEBOOK is too big.

 

And for those of you thinking that it can't happen - do you ever ride mass transit?  Or even take a cab?

Grand Master

HawkMan

Posted
Posted

point is, if you're gonna use a keyboard, might as well get a real laptop (with a full-fledged OS, ie windows or mac) instead of using a tablet as one.

 

again, not really and windows 8, 8.1 an 10 are all FULL FLEDGED OS'. and a tablet with a detachable keyboard, keyboard dock or r any such thing, is a million times more flexible than a laptop. it is a laptop AND a tablet, a laptop will always be just a laptop.

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Grand Master

HawkMan

Posted
Posted

Except for two things, I would normally agree (remember, I have a notebook).

 

One problem is that too many notebooks have problematical touchpad/trackpad support (that is a major issue with Windows 8+ and earlier - the 10 Technical Previews, for me, are problem-free there).  Unless you have touch-screen support (where tablets tend to have it as normal due to smaller screen sizes), you have to allow space (and pay additional) for an external mouse.  (Doing one is bad enough - doing both is worse.)

 

Also, even if your touchpad/trackpad works fine, there IS that space issue - larger portables have larger screens (and therefore chew up more space) - what do you do if computing space is a premium?  (And it actually IS on the move, and all too often.)

 

I may actually wind up adding a tablet to the notebook - for those use cases where even the NOTEBOOK is too big.

 

And for those of you thinking that it can't happen - do you ever ride mass transit?  Or even take a cab?

 

Honestly, No matter how good the trackpad support is, even the supposed holy grail of the apple pad(that apple users think is so good it's better than any other control method for anything), a trackpad will never be anything but a emergency input when I can't use a mouse. even the best of trackpads aren't half as good as a bad mouse. 

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Defcon

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Honestly, No matter how good the trackpad support is, even the supposed holy grail of the apple pad(that apple users think is so good it's better than any other control method for anything), a trackpad will never be anything but a emergency input when I can't use a mouse. even the best of trackpads aren't half as good as a bad mouse. 

Why is it so many people find it hard to accept this basic truth?

 

UI's on ALL GUIs are designed for pointer input. Adapting it to touch just means a fat finger instead of pointer. Doesn't change the basic dynamics of the interface. Anyone claiming that touch is a different paradigm than mice doesn't get basic interaction.

Rising Star

onewarmslime

Posted
Posted
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOne problem is that too many notebooks have problematical touchpad/trackpad support (that is a major issue with Windows 8+ and earlier - the 10 Technical Previews, for me, are problem-free there).  Unless you have touch-screen support (where tablets tend to have it as normal due to smaller screen sizes), you have to allow space (and pay additional) for an external mouse.  (Doing one is bad enough - doing both is worse.)

 

A mouse costs like 10 bucks, probably less than your average bluetooth keyboard. But I'm not disagreeing. I only said I wouldn't do it is all...

 

 

QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote

 

And for those of you thinking that it can't happen - do you ever ride mass transit?  Or even take a cab?

 

I used to take the subway +bus every day to get to uni. I didn't really feel the need to use either a laptop or a tablet but I'm not saying you shouldn't use one. People can do what they want, all I said is that one interface can't do the job for all form factors. A "fat finger" is VERY different than a precision mouse with two buttons and a scrolling wheel. So different it's not even a proper analogy..

 

 

 

 

QuoteQuoteQuoteagain, not really and windows 8, 8.1 an 10 are all FULL FLEDGED OS'. and a tablet with a detachable keyboard, keyboard dock or r any such thing, is a million times more flexible than a laptop. it is a laptop AND a tablet, a laptop will always be just a laptop.

 

I wasn't really referring to windows tablets. As far as I'm concerned windows tablets are, like you said, small laptops with a detachable keyboard.  peace

Grand Master

HawkMan

Posted
Posted

Why is it so many people find it hard to accept this basic truth?

 

UI's on ALL GUIs are designed for pointer input. Adapting it to touch just means a fat finger instead of pointer. Doesn't change the basic dynamics of the interface. Anyone claiming that touch is a different paradigm than mice doesn't get basic interaction.

 

You may need reading comprehension, or know the difference between a trackpad and touch. 

 

And no, you're wrong UI's on all GUI's areabsolutely not designed for pointer input. 

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

You may need reading comprehension, or know the difference between a trackpad and touch. 

 

And no, you're wrong UI's on all GUI's areabsolutely not designed for pointer input. 

If what he was saying were, in fact, true, than even supposedly touch-biased UIs (such as Android, iOS, or even Windows' own ModernUI) were designed for pointing devices - and specifically mice.

 

In other words, he has just implied the opposite of his original opinion - that ModernUI is a touch-biased UI.

 

Geeze - hypocrisy much?

 

HE may be biased in favor of mice - however, why would a UI necessarily be, and especially a UI that is common to hardware where pointing devices in general (and mice in particular) are not?

 

Oooops.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

Did you NOT read that I typed that trackpads (and touchpads) are built in?  In short, they take up no extra space - on purpose.  If you have a trackpad/touchpad on your portable, you aren't supposed to need an external pointing device of any sort.

Further, I stated that Windows 10 Technical Preview has better support for trackpads and touchpads than previous versions of Windows.  Given that trackpads and touchpads date back - merely on NT - to NT4, that makes it a software/driver issue; that the notebook in question dates back to Vista (in other words, it's a "legacy notebook" - AMD CPU, nForce 2 mobile chipset) confirms it.  If trackpads and touchpads are basically a lie, why include them?

 

However, that is the problem - trackpads and touchpads aren't a lie - they are plain and simply poorly supported in Windows 8+ and earlier.  And we, as users, have made excuse after excuse for it.  That's not on Microsoft, or on OEMs; that's on US.  (Kudos to Microsoft for actually fixing the problem, though.)

Veteran

xWhiplash

Posted
Posted

Until tablets get 32GB of RAM, can use 3DS Max, Adobe After Effects, Visual Studio, and more, they will not replace my desktop.  I fail to see how the desktop is dead.  I also fail to see how "classic apps have been basically the same for years".

 

Right.  Visual Studio 2005 is the EXACT SAME as Visual Studio 2013....right?

 

There were never any new features from Photoshop 5 to Photoshop CC?

Grand Master

HawkMan

Posted
Posted

Until tablets get 32GB of RAM, can use 3DS Max, Adobe After Effects, Visual Studio, and more, they will not replace my desktop.  I fail to see how the desktop is dead.  I also fail to see how "classic apps have been basically the same for years".

 

Right.  Visual Studio 2005 is the EXACT SAME as Visual Studio 2013....right?

 

There were never any new features from Photoshop 5 to Photoshop CC?

 

 

OMG... Tablets aren't mean tot replace workstations... however a very small percentage of people need workstations. I do, or at least I like having it because I like toying with Max and Photoshop and other stuff, but I'm a minority. 99.9% of users don't need this, they need to log into facebook and their web bank read some news and order some new toys and clothes online. 

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

Until tablets get 32GB of RAM, can use 3DS Max, Adobe After Effects, Visual Studio, and more, they will not replace my desktop.  I fail to see how the desktop is dead.  I also fail to see how "classic apps have been basically the same for years".

 

Right.  Visual Studio 2005 is the EXACT SAME as Visual Studio 2013....right?

 

There were never any new features from Photoshop 5 to Photoshop CC?

Desktop apps have remained the same, but not in features. Take a look at the Windows 7 desktop, and compare it to Windows 95. They're the same thing. They both have a taskbar, a Start Menu, and launch the same applications. They're both desktops through and through. They were both built solely for mouse input, and continue to run the same resources - and that's where the issue lies. Underneath, very little has changed, and that's what's causing the issues with Microsoft. Underneath, Windows doesn't scale. All of that is changing, and as such the desktop as we knew it, is dead.

Mentor

ParadiseLost

Posted
Posted

OMG... Tablets aren't mean tot replace workstations... however a very small percentage of people need workstations. I do, or at least I like having it because I like toying with Max and Photoshop and other stuff, but I'm a minority. 99.9% of users don't need this, they need to log into facebook and their web bank read some news and order some new toys and clothes online. 

 

And they never needed a PC. They don't even need a powerful tablet.

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