Is Microsoft ignoring the desktop again?

[PGHammer]

xWhiplash - I was referring to desktop applications - not games.  Games on Steam is an entirely different metric; Steam basically replaced XP as the Lowest Target Platform.  (Further, Steam works on even Windows 10's Technical Preview just fine - I have no problems with games on Steam at all.)  Desktop application support, however, is not the same issue; there, the issue is very much LACK of application software for average users.  Lots of choice there for experts and professionals - for average folks, not so much.

[xWhiplash]

I am referring to software for average people that is not really there on the desktop.  Also, how much IS CS2?  How easy is CS2 for average folks to use?  There IS less average-folks software for the desktop these days - and it's not even Windows desktops alone feeling the lack; it's also on the Apple side of things as well.  That is the bigger problem.

 

What are you talking about?  You CAN use a browser to use Facebook, or twitter, or email, or anything the average people needs.  Why does there HAVE to be dedicated programs for everything?  Their browser will allow them to use social media without having to have several apps.

 

So what does the average person need that they CANNOT do on a desktop through a browser or something else?  What "average programs" are NEEDED on the desktop?

 

The average user uses Office - there is Office 2013 on the desktop.

 

Facebook, twitter, ...?  You have your browser for that.

 

Angry Birds?  It is on Steam.

 

What is SOOOOOO NEEDED for average users that they cannot use on the desktop?  Anything I can do on my iPad I can do on my desktop.  I can use Facebook much more easily.

 

What "apps" is the desktop lacking that make it obsolete/dying?

 

The desktop has MORE choices.  

[Dot Matrix]

I could never use a tablet at work for my order entry system or embroidery digitizing software. However, at home, virtually anything I do on the PC i can do on my tablet. Still though, there are things that I undeniably need a desktop for. Using Lightroom, Photoshop, Logic Pro, iTunes, and so on. I don't see any tablets coming close to that kind of productivity in the near future. However, for common use at home like email, web surfing, you tubing, gaming, etc. the tablet is more than sufficient.

Surface disagrees

[PGHammer]

I never said otherwise.  I'm referring to OTHER uses in terms of software for average folks (photo editing, audio or video editing, etc.).  There used to be desktop-application software for all of it that wasn't overly cumbersome for average folks to use - where is such software today?  If we want more professional photo-editors, audio and video editors, etc., comfortable with the desktop, wouldn't it make a great deal of sense for there to be software FOR the desktop that they can learn and use?  (It's the same issue that software-development faced two decades ago.)

[Dot Matrix]

What are you talking about? You CAN use a browser to use Facebook, or twitter, or email, or anything the average people needs. Why does there HAVE to be dedicated programs for everything? Their browser will allow them to use social media without having to have several apps.

So what does the average person need that they CANNOT do on a desktop through a browser or something else? What "average programs" are NEEDED on the desktop?

The average user uses Office - there is Office 2013 on the desktop.

Facebook, twitter, ...? You have your browser for that.

Angry Birds? It is on Steam.

What is SOOOOOO NEEDED for average users that they cannot use on the desktop? Anything I can do on my iPad I can do on my desktop. I can use Facebook much more easily.

What "apps" is the desktop lacking that make it obsolete/dying?

The desktop has MORE choices.

Desktops are limited by mouse input. You really want to play angry birds with a mouse?! Are you kidding?

[xWhiplash]

I never said otherwise.  I'm referring to OTHER uses in terms of software for average folks (photo editing, audio or video editing, etc.).  There used to be desktop-application software for all of it that wasn't overly cumbersome for average folks to use - where is such software today?  If we want more professional photo-editors, audio and video editors, etc., comfortable with the desktop, wouldn't it make a great deal of sense for there to be software FOR the desktop that they can learn and use?  (It's the same issue that software-development faced two decades ago.)

 

Premiere Elements and Photoshop elements are still available.  Pixelmator is available on OS X and it is far cheaper than Photoshop Elements and has much more features.  Audio editing there is Audacity which is free.

 

Desktops are limited by mouse input. You really want to play angry birds with a mouse?! Are you kidding?

 

It is just as easy to play it with a mouse.  Just Click, Drag, and Let Go.  Same if you use your finger.

[onewarmslime]

Desktops are limited by mouse input. You really want to play angry birds ?! Are you kidding?          

fixed

[DConnell Member]

I was considering making this a thread, since it includes feedback a bit different, but meh

 

I want to defend the Start Menu a little. It is like a bush; it can look and work great, but if you don't maintain it, it just goes wild and sprawls. 95% of the time I fix someone's computer, at work or outside, their start menu is a hideous list of every application having its own cascading menu with stupid shortcuts like "manual" and "uninstall" or "visit our website lulz"... and all of that is justifiably horrible and completely unworkable.

 

HOWEVER, if you do maintain it, it works. In a way, this mirrors the library (Documents etc) concept. In theory, it works, but every program handles it differently, so you end up with 5 subfolders in Documents for game settings. I keep my start menu clean, move every program into its group (Office, Coding, Games, Hardware, etc) and delete the junk links, and it quickly becomes a fast and compact way to access any application. The problem is that this uptake is significant. That said, given that you can quickly pull up an Uninstall list, I don't know why you can't similarly quickly access a list of installed programs, grouped. Many Linux interface designs utilize this concept much better than the Start Menu.

 

At its root, the same problem occurs with the Start Screen; junk links and maintenance to keep things ordered. It just feels like Windows lacks a way to accurately list installed applications.

 

This is a very good point, and ties into why I prefer the Screen so much. Yes, you had to maintain the Menu, right from the beginning, to prevent it from becoming a convoluted mess. But the tools are very inadequate for Menu maintenance - you either have to dig into the menu settings, or deep into the folder structure of your hard drive. It may work, but you have to put far too much work into it IMO to get it work.

 

The Screen is much easier to maintain - everything is alphabetized from the get-go in All Apps with other sort options available. Furthermore after 8,1 nothing is pinned to the Screen by default on installation. Organization is done within the screen itself, pinning/unpinning items and drag & drop. Much easier to play with layouts to find the best one for your needs.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Desktops are limited by mouse input. You really want to play angry birds with a mouse?! Are you kidding?

 

I played all the way through Angry Birds Starwars on my couch computer with a mouse. It was just fine.

[xWhiplash]

I played all the way through Angry Birds Starwars on my couch computer with a mouse. It was just fine.

 

Agree.  My entire argument was anything that can be done on tablets, can be done on Desktops even for the average user.

 

And like you guys said, the average user does not need all the features from Photoshop CC.  Paint.NET and Photoshop Elements have basically stayed pretty much the same in years.  That does mean desktop programs have "stalled".  It is just they have no need for the professional features.  

[Jim K Global Moderator]

This is a very good point, and ties into why I prefer the Screen so much. Yes, you had to maintain the Menu, right from the beginning, to prevent it from becoming a convoluted mess. But the tools are very inadequate for Menu maintenance - you either have to dig into the menu settings, or deep into the folder structure of your hard drive. It may work, but you have to put far too much work into it IMO to get it work.

 

The Screen is much easier to maintain - everything is alphabetized from the get-go in All Apps with other sort options available. Furthermore after 8,1 nothing is pinned to the Screen by default on installation. Organization is done within the screen itself, pinning/unpinning items and drag & drop. Much easier to play with layouts to find the best one for your needs.

 

The start menu, really, isn't that hard to maintain.  I do love how you and Dot Matrix use the term "deep into..." and "convoluted mess"... kinda of like you two are on a long and arduous quest to find the missing sacred calculator program.

 

The all apps is a mess...way too much mouse travel...looking forward to being able to create folders and pop programs into them...like I'm able to with 7.

[TAZMINATOR]

Excuse me but you should read the whole thing before replying. I bet you've been wanting to use that GIF for months.

 

Nope.. you try to run Photoshop on 2gb RAM....  

 

Seems that you have NOT tried it... 

 

Not believe me, install Photoshop (Not Photoshop Express) on PC/tablet with 2gb RAM and see for yourself.

 

It loads up slow as hell. That's why this app requires more RAM to load quick enough for you.

 

Plus AutoCAD is same as Photoshop.  It takes forever to load up unless you have massive RAM in it.

 

 

That's why these apps won't run well on tablets unless you have enough RAM in the tablets...

 

 

I used AutoCAD at work... their desktop computers has lot of RAM because of this app which help you work smoothly and quickly instead of getting the app freeze or slowdowns.

[xWhiplash]

Nope.. you try to run Photoshop on 2gb RAM....  

 

Seems that you have NOT tried it... 

 

Not believe me, install Photoshop (Not Photoshop Express) on PC/tablet with 2gb RAM and see for yourself.

 

It loads up slow as hell. That's why this app requires more RAM to load quick enough for you.

 

Plus AutoCAD is same as Photoshop.  It takes forever to load up unless you have massive RAM in it.

 

 

That's why these apps won't run well on tablets unless you have enough RAM in the tablets...

 

 

I used AutoCAD at work... their desktop computers has lot of RAM because of this app which help you work smoothly and quickly instead of getting the app freeze or slowdowns.

 

Agreed.  The desktop can do pretty much whatever the general user can do.  Tablets can not do what professionals do, especially when you have 32GB of RAM and use it for these kinds of programs.

[PGHammer]

I have never said otherwise.  (The same argument applies to even laptops and notebooks - they don't have the screen size, or sheer computing power, of desktops, yet they run the same OS and the same software for the most part.)

So, what separates tablets and slates from laptops and notebooks, then?  Basically, the same thing that separates notebooks from desktops - capabilities.

That is, in fact, Microsoft's point - it is ALL about capabilities.  The line is NOT as wide as all too many of us think, and with time, the line gets narrower, and, depending on the hardware, can go away altogether - it certainly is starting to merely between desktops and larger notebooks, and between tablets, slates and smaller notebooks.

[xWhiplash]

I have never said otherwise.  (The same argument applies to even laptops and notebooks - they don't have the screen size, or sheer computing power, of desktops, yet they run the same OS and the same software for the most part.)

So, what separates tablets and slates from laptops and notebooks, then?  Basically, the same thing that separates notebooks from desktops - capabilities.

That is, in fact, Microsoft's point - it is ALL about capabilities.  The line is NOT as wide as all too many of us think, and with time, the line gets narrower, and, depending on the hardware, can go away altogether - it certainly is starting to merely between desktops and larger notebooks, and between tablets, slates and smaller notebooks.

 

You did say desktop development has stalled, which is not true and I explained why in my posts.  Most of the modern / iOS apps can be done in some way on the desktop.  Either through a browser (Facebook, twitter), or with more powerful software (Paint.NET, Pixelmator).

 

In fact, OS X is much better for the general user.  There is iMovie, iPhoto, Pixelmator, Garageband, ...  These are all very easy to use compared to the Windows alternatives.

 

But in no way are these programs "stalled".  Like you said, the general user does not need dozens of advanced features and tools.  Not including them to fit your user base does NOT equal stalled development.

 

Stalled development would mean that they are UNABLE to program new features.  Photoshop CC has some pretty cool features that I like to use on a daily basis.

 

After Effects CC included Cinema 4D Lite which was pretty cool.  Doesn't seem to be stalled to me.

 

Visual Studio is always getting better and better.  It doesn't seem to be stalled to me.

[PGHammer]

The StartScreen mostly maintains itself - mini-Start (from 9901 and earlier) does the same thing (understandable, since it's based on it).

 

That is something the current (992x) version does not do yet - and something the original Start menu flat-out lacked.

 

Did I or didn't I refer to Start menu maintenance as "scutwork" and "busywork" all too often?  It's basically something you do during slow periods to avoid goofing off - fun it definitely isn't.

 

And do you ever think that those same OS X applications you named will ever appear on iOS, and if not, WHY not?

 

And the very point you made about all of them certainly applies to Windows - there ARE no Windows desktop equivalents on the desktop.  (There used to be, but all are gone.)

 

Instead, the average user is "making do" with browser-based (or tablet-based) equivalents - how much loyalty is such a user going to have to the desktop, then?

 

The line is indeed blurring between tablets and notebooks - it's all about capabilities.  I'm not implying that it will catch up to the high end - there simply isn't enough physical space to allow that.  However, it CAN catch up to the middle end of even the desktop space (except for display capabilities) - and with docks and other accessories, it can catch up even there.

[xWhiplash]

The StartScreen mostly maintains itself - mini-Start (from 9901 and earlier) does the same thing (understandable, since it's based on it).

 

That is something the current (992x) version does not do yet - and something the original Start menu flat-out lacked.

 

Did I or didn't I refer to Start menu maintenance as "scutwork" and "busywork" all too often?  It's basically something you do during slow periods to avoid goofing off - fun it definitely isn't.

 

And do you ever think that those same OS X applications you named will ever appear on iOS, and if not, WHY not?

 

And the very point you made about all of them certainly applies to Windows - there ARE no Windows desktop equivalents on the desktop.  (There used to be, but all are gone.)

 

Instead, the average user is "making do" with browser-based (or tablet-based) equivalents - how much loyalty is such a user going to have to the desktop, then?

 

The line is indeed blurring between tablets and notebooks - it's all about capabilities.  I'm not implying that it will catch up to the high end - there simply isn't enough physical space to allow that.  However, it CAN catch up to the middle end of even the desktop space (except for display capabilities) - and with docks and other accessories, it can catch up even there.

 

That does not mean that the classic desktop environment is broken or stalled.  Any developer can make a very very very very easy to use photo or video editor on Windows.  It does not HAVE to be a modern app for development to work.  

 

So you are saying the desktop CANNOT have these kinds of programs?  But they can have BETTER programs?  That makes no sense.  Complain to company X for not making program Y more general user friendly.  

 

Paint.NET and Photoshop Elements still exist on Windows.  Photoshop Elements is very general user friendly.

 

No, I don't think iOS will ever get desktop apps that have the EXACT SAME features.  I doubt we will ever see After Effects, or 3DS Max, or Blender, or Premiere Pro on iOS that offer the exact same features.  I do not even think they could offer plug in support due to the nature of the mobile platform and having apps separate.  They would have to open it up like a desktop environment to allow these things.

 

There are no tablets out there that have 32GB of RAM, which my desktop has.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

That does not mean that the classic desktop environment is broken or stalled. Any developer can make a very very very very easy to use photo or video editor on Windows. It does not HAVE to be a modern app for development to work.

So you are saying the desktop CANNOT have these kinds of programs? But they can have BETTER programs? That makes no sense. Complain to company X for not making program Y more general user friendly.

Paint.NET and Photoshop Elements still exist on Windows. Photoshop Elements is very general user friendly.

No, I don't think iOS will ever get desktop apps that have the EXACT SAME features. I doubt we will ever see After Effects, or 3DS Max, or Blender, or Premiere Pro on iOS that offer the exact same features. I do not even think they could offer plug in support due to the nature of the mobile platform and having apps separate. They would have to open it up like a desktop environment to allow these things.

There are no tablets out there that have 32GB of RAM, which my desktop has.

The thing we lose sight of as power users is that managing a desktop is too complex for normal users. Normal users ruin a single application at a time, often full screen. The 'modern' environment, or tablet environment works very well for these users.

Case in point, my father has no problem with his iPhone or iPad, but his desktop on his computer is a complete mess because it requires a concerted effort to keep it tidy. The idea of finding stuff in his start menu is not an intuitive experience for him. He is closer to the norm than I am.

Power users are a very small proportion of computer users these days. Microsoft realises this (their consumer software is for the masses, remember) and Windows is evolving to cater for the masses.

[PGHammer]

Exactly.  While I am (by definition) a power user, the folks I support are not.  (And I assume that the "ruin" is a Freudian slip, Fahim?)

 

And I don't want the folks I support to lose sight of what the desktop application is capable of - which is all too likely TO happen if they don't use desktop applications.

 

Besides, experts and professionals retire - who will replace them?

[PGHammer]

I didn't say that it had to be a Modern app - but it doesn't have to be browser-based, either.

The point I am making is that despite it being so *easy*, by and large is ISN'T being done in terms of desktop software - the question I am asking, naturally, is "why not"?

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

everyday-user applications are leaving OS X - for iOS.  OS X is becoming an even more "niche" OS than it had been 

Do you have any examples? If anything, I see more and more apps that had been iOS-only also being 'ported' to OS X (and clearly vice versa). But what apps are leaving OS X for iOS? 

[HawkMan]

I could never use a tablet at work for my order entry system or embroidery digitizing software. However, at home, virtually anything I do on the PC i can do on my tablet. Still though, there are things that I undeniably need a desktop for. Using Lightroom, Photoshop, Logic Pro, iTunes, and so on. I don't see any tablets coming close to that kind of productivity in the near future. However, for common use at home like email, web surfing, you tubing, gaming, etc. the tablet is more than sufficient.

 

PhotoShop has been upgraded to support touch in one of the major upgrades last fall/early winter, along with several of their other CC apps, Lr has not been upgraded with the new touch support, but is expected in the next update, so yes, for the majority of you PhotoShop stuff you can in fact use a tablet today, and that's with the the full PhotoShop CC version. Lr is even more suited for tablets and once they add the touch support to it you can so all the Lr work on a tablet just fine.

 

as for iTunes, I see no reason why you can't use it or alternatives fully on a tablet, I also don't see why you would use it instead of better alternatives, on windows. but even so you can use it fully on a tablet.

[HawkMan]

Nope.. you try to run Photoshop on 2gb RAM....  

 

Seems that you have NOT tried it... 

 

Not believe me, install Photoshop (Not Photoshop Express) on PC/tablet with 2gb RAM and see for yourself.

 

It loads up slow as hell. That's why this app requires more RAM to load quick enough for you.

 

Plus AutoCAD is same as Photoshop.  It takes forever to load up unless you have massive RAM in it.

 

 

That's why these apps won't run well on tablets unless you have enough RAM in the tablets...

 

 

I used AutoCAD at work... their desktop computers has lot of RAM because of this app which help you work smoothly and quickly instead of getting the app freeze or slowdowns.

 

well my tablet has 4gb and runs PS CC just fine. hoping the touch update is released for Lr soon as well since i'd love to do my Lr'ing on the tablet at least partly, but the GUI has some quirks currently that don't work with touch.

[TAZMINATOR]

well my tablet has 4gb and runs PS CC just fine. hoping the touch update is released for Lr soon as well since i'd love to do my Lr'ing on the tablet at least partly, but the GUI has some quirks currently that don't work with touch.

 

Try it with 20+ layers..  not smoothly for 4gb

 

You can not do that heavy work with 20 plus layers... that's the reason you need massive RAM for that.

 

4gb RAM or less is okay for simple users who do the quick work such as crop, add text, etc. That's no problem for a few layers.

 

You have CC version...  I have license version and CC but not on same system though.

 

I don't care about the touch version. I prefer desktop version with a keyboard and mouse.

[HawkMan]

the touch version IS the desktop version...

 

and it works fine with tons of layers on 4gb. sure a workstation is better, hence "workstation" for some thing a tablet is better though, had I had a SP3binstead of the miix2 I would be mostly using PS on it since it would effectively be a Quinton with touch that you can take everywhere. on screen digitizer is awesome.

 

and seeing as I subscribe to the photographer CC sub, I have the full PS CC version.