Is Microsoft ignoring the desktop again?

[TAZMINATOR]

the touch version IS the desktop version...

 

Duh. I know that. I said I don't care about touch version. I am not touching the screen to use the Photoshop.

 

and it works fine with tons of layers on 4gb. sure a workstation is better, hence "workstation" for some thing a tablet is better though, had I had a SP3binstead of the miix2 I would be mostly using PS on it since it would effectively be a Quinton with touch that you can take everywhere. on screen digitizer is awesome.

 

I said "heavy"...  I was not talking about small stuff each layer...     

 

and seeing as I subscribe to the photographer CC sub, I have the full PS CC version.

 

Good for you... I got a license version before Creative Cloud was born .  

 

Psst, you have Photoshop CC...  Mine has "CS6"  

 

And I got that sub as well for my other laptop.

[HawkMan]

 

I said "heavy"...  I was not talking about small stuff each layer...     

 

 

 

 

Ah assumed elitism, seems a bit pretentious.  Maybe you should assume less before you act all mightier than thou. 

[PGHammer]

Ah assumed elitism, seems a bit pretentious.  Maybe you should assume less before you act all mightier than thou. 

HawkMan - that is the "high-end trap"; they assume that everyone thinks the same way.  (Related traps are the "PC Master Race" trap and the "consolista" trap.)

 

Also, not even those that run high-end hardware ALWAYS run high-end applications.  I certainly don't.

[Ian W]

I doubt VERY seriously that the PC userbase is as shallow as you are making them out to be - they aren't THAT dense.

Where did I even suggest such a thing? I merely asked a question.

Power users are a very small proportion of computer users these days. Microsoft realises this (their consumer software is for the masses, remember) and Windows is evolving to cater for the masses.

What if the inexperienced users eventually reach a point where the software is not powerful enough for them? And what about those who are already adept. Why should they have to compromise?

My point is that there needs to be a balance between the simple and advanced. Aside from the occasional more details option, Microsoft is not doing this.

[xWhiplash]

the touch version IS the desktop version...

 

and it works fine with tons of layers on 4gb. sure a workstation is better, hence "workstation" for some thing a tablet is better though, had I had a SP3binstead of the miix2 I would be mostly using PS on it since it would effectively be a Quinton with touch that you can take everywhere. on screen digitizer is awesome.

 

and seeing as I subscribe to the photographer CC sub, I have the full PS CC version.

 

It is not a modern app.  It is just a classic desktop style application with an option to support touch input.  Like I said.  the desktop environment is not stalled or dying.  This just proves it.  There is no limitation with programming on the desktop that a modern app suddenly removes.

[SionicIon]

Isn't the problem Win32 and Win64 apps is that they don't scale particularly well. Metro Apps do. That is if you view them on a 4K monitor Win32/Win64 apps appear as postage stamps or have visual artifacts when they get bigger. Metro Apps won't have this problem.

But as of right now WinRT apps don't scale well to the desktop! They are too big. Even the new redesigned apps like the Settings app or Xbox app or OneNote preview app.

When you use them and then turn tablet mode on, the app doesn't scale up at all. It just fullscreens itself. There isn't any optimization so the apps look scaled down on the desktop and scaled up in tablet mode.

That just bothers me. If the apps used Segoe UI size 9 font like File Explorer does, I wouldn't have a problem. And if the spacing between UI elements wasn't the size of my fingers already..

Getting the apps windowed is just a first step. I really..REALLY hope they improve how the apps scale on the desktop form factor because I'd rather use apps that aren't huge.

[HawkMan]

But as of right now WinRT apps don't scale well to the desktop! They are too big. Even the new redesigned apps like the Settings app or Xbox app or OneNote preview app.

When you use them and then turn tablet mode on, the app doesn't scale up at all. It just fullscreens itself. There isn't any optimization so the apps look scaled down on the desktop and scaled up in tablet mode.

That just bothers me. If the apps used Segoe UI size 9 font like File Explorer does, I wouldn't have a problem. And if the spacing between UI elements wasn't the size of my fingers already..

Getting the apps windowed is just a first step. I really..REALLY hope they improve how the apps scale on the desktop form factor because I'd rather use apps that aren't huge.

 

So you first complain that they don't scale, to then completely jump to complaining that they do scale and that it's it's stupid for apps to be "smaller" when using a mouse a and full screen with bigger controls on touch... wtf ? 

[SionicIon]

Never once did I say they scale. I said they are scaled for touch screens already. Tablet mode doesn't scale them, it just full screens them. So there is no difference between the size they are on a tablet versus on the desktop with mouse/kb.

That's the problem. The font should be at segoe ui size 9 for example. Looks like size 11 now.. And when you enter tablet mode, it should then scale up. But it doesn't. Because its already big.

[TAZMINATOR]

Never once did I say they scale. I said they are scaled for touch screens already. Tablet mode doesn't scale them, it just full screens them. So there is no difference between the size they are on a tablet versus on the desktop with mouse/kb.

That's the problem. The font should be at segoe ui size 9 for example. Looks like size 11 now.. And when you enter tablet mode, it should then scale up. But it doesn't. Because its already big.

 

I don't have that problem.. the font size is 9 on my end and stay the same between the modes.   I guess depends on resolution on each PC/tablet.

 

Maybe you had corrupted installation.. You might want to reset or wipe/re-install Windows 10 and see.

[SionicIon]

No I'm talking about the modern apps. Only the modern apps look like this and you can't say it doesn't because it looks exactly the same in the screenshots. Oversized UI elements.

[TAZMINATOR]

No I'm talking about the modern apps. Only the modern apps look like this and you can't say it doesn't because it looks exactly the same in the screenshots. Oversized UI elements.

 

Tell me what apps so I could look up and see how they appear.

 

Remember, this is early stage. They plan to add more stuff and  adjust stuff before final release.

 

If you want changeable font size, send suggestions to MS via feedback app. So they will consider to add.

 

If not, too bad for you and you might want to go back to 8.1 or older... or whatever.

[siah1214]

Duh. I know that. I said I don't care about touch version. I am not touching the screen to use the Photoshop.

 

 

I said "heavy"...  I was not talking about small stuff each layer...     

 

 

Good for you... I got a license version before Creative Cloud was born .  

 

Psst, you have Photoshop CC...  Mine has "CS6"  

 

And I got that sub as well for my other laptop.

You realize that the only difference between creative cloud and CS6 is that CS6 isn't going to get any updates? And that there will never be a CS7? You seem to think that CC is a paired down version of photoshop and that couldn't be any further from the truth. 

[PGHammer]

Where did I even suggest such a thing? I merely asked a question.

What if the inexperienced users eventually reach a point where the software is not powerful enough for them? And what about those who are already adept. Why should they have to compromise?

My point is that there needs to be a balance between the simple and advanced. Aside from the occasional more details option, Microsoft is not doing this.

That is NOT the job of the desktop environment.  That is the job of what RUNS on that environment.

 

Making the desktop environment ITSELF more complex is what scares average users away from it; the problem is that all too many of the experts don't care.

The experts are all too willing - in fact, all too happy - if average users avoid the desktop like the plague; they see the desktop environment as their personal playground/preserve - and especially now that tablets are on the upswing.

 

The desktop environment - if it will have ANY meaning for future desktop users - needs to remain usable (and approachable) BY those users - making it overly complicated goes against that grain.  (Windows did NOT get to where it is by throwing the masses out into the cold, and especially not desktop users.)

 

The "more details" section is indeed FOR the advanced/expert user - if that is where ANY complexity is, that is where it SHOULD be.  However, the desktop environment itself needs to remain approachable by average users.

 

Instead, what I have been seeing (and especially in terms of Feedback) is in terms of making the controls for the desktop environment more complex from the beginning - how is that a service to average users?

[SionicIon]

All of them. But specifically what bothered me is the redesigned apps that take in consideration they are in windows not full screen.

The settings app for example, the options, the highlight for them shows how big that box really is. Its as big as an index finger. All very touchable.

But if you look at File Explorer, the sidebar menu items, the highlight around them shows the boxes for them are only the size of your typical mouse pointer.

The reason it bothers me is because it makes a list of menu items very long. Exceeding what can usually be shown in a window making you maximize the window. Text wraps when you make the windows smaller. It destroys the point of windowed modern apps.

The universal apps on Windows Phone display much differently than Windows 8.1 or RT does. That's an example of universal apps fitting the right form factor. But the universal apps on the desktop are just put in windows, there is no scaling down. Drop down menus are large. Context menus are large. They began working on context menus in 8.1 update but it doesn't reflect that in the newly redesigned universal apps.

Nobody wants large UI elements and larger font, that's compensating for tablets. And the whole point of this release is to bring back the focus on desktop and bring universal apps to the desktop. But if they are oversized than your typical win32 apps people will distinguish what are regular apps and what are the new dumbed down apps in windows. And I'm not trying to be rude or too critical but I support WPF and silverlight and using new technologies to build new software. And winrt is that next iteration but right now we haven't really seen modern apps designed for the desktop, everything still is a compromise in UI design.

[TAZMINATOR]

You realize that the only difference between creative cloud and CS6 is that CS6 isn't going to get any updates? And that there will never be a CS7? You seem to think that CC is a paired down version of photoshop and that couldn't be any further from the truth. 

 

I said it's license version.. That's why I got CS6 before CC came out.  Meaning I don't have to pay monthly...  What's wrong with you?

 

READ CAREFULLY:  I have 2 apps;  One is CS6 which is licensed. other is CC that I pay monthly on my other laptop.

 

I get updates on CC..  I don't need updates on CS6 as long as it works. 

[Ian W]

That is NOT the job of the desktop environment.  That is the job of what RUNS on that environment.

I didn't write that it was, and in my mind, the notion of simple v. advanced applies to all operating environments. A phone or tablet UI, for example, should present both simple and advanced options for users where applicable.

 

Making the desktop environment ITSELF more complex is what scares average users away from it; the problem is that all too many of the experts don't care.

The experts are all too willing - in fact, all too happy - if average users avoid the desktop like the plague; they see the desktop environment as their personal playground/preserve - and especially now that tablets are on the upswing.

I am certainly not advocating that Windows should be more like Linux, in the sense that it is mostly too complex for the average user. I am advocating balance.

 

The desktop environment - if it will have ANY meaning for future desktop users - needs to remain usable (and approachable) BY those users - making it overly complicated goes against that grain.  (Windows did NOT get to where it is by throwing the masses out into the cold, and especially not desktop users.)

The "more details" section is indeed FOR the advanced/expert user - if that is where ANY complexity is, that is where it SHOULD be.  However, the desktop environment itself needs to remain approachable by average users.

I agree with you. Windows should, by default, remain approachable by average users. However, this should be done without doing the more experienced users a disservice. The "more details" option in my previous post is a perfect example of balance. Simple by default, more advanced if necessary.

 

Instead, what I have been seeing (and especially in terms of Feedback) is in terms of making the controls for the desktop environment more complex from the beginning - how is that a service to average users?

Don't you think there is a reason users are making that feedback?

[nekrosoft13]

yes they are.

 

they started to castrate control panel, hiding it, removing (windows update is gone) icons, making a replacement that is all metro design with 10% functionality.

 

Everyone wanted start menu back, and they added that horrible bastard child of classic start menu and start screen.

 

More and more dialogs keep defaulting to metro dialogs instead of normal simple dialogs.

 

Explorer is still screwed.... hard drives and removable devices all lumped together... details pane still on right side...

 

new icons are ######, cortana is useless.

 

needs a proper high DPI support, 4K monitors still not every useful.

 

there are so many things that can be done, but it seems they only thing they are concerned about is turning into a idiot proof metro interface.

 

everything I mentioned is being asked about in feedback, and MS simply ignores it, all that BS about them listening is just that BS.

[Dot Matrix]

they started to castrate control panel, hiding it, removing (windows update is gone) icons, making a replacement that is all metro design with 10% functionality.

 

Everyone wanted start menu back, and they added that horrible bastard child of classic start menu and start screen.

 

More and more dialogs keep defaulting to metro dialogs instead of normal simple dialogs.

 

 

 

everything I mentioned is being asked about in feedback, and MS simply ignores it, all that BS about them listening is just that BS.

I'm looking at the feedback right now, and I see nothing of the sort. People are loving the new Start UX, and most are asking for pre-9926 functionality back. Users are also asking for one Settings panel. SInce the Metro one is the most scalable, and the most up to date with post Windows 7 settings, it was the one that was kept.

 

And, please, what defines a "normal" dialog?

 

At this point Microsoft isn't bringing back any deprecated functionality. And why should they? It's time to move on.

[onewarmslime]

Dot Matrix, on 31 Jan 2015 - 01:04, said:

 

 

And, please, what defines a "normal" dialog?

I think we all know what he means...

[siah1214]

I said it's license version.. That's why I got CS6 before CC came out.  Meaning I don't have to pay monthly...  What's wrong with you?

 

READ CAREFULLY:  I have 2 apps;  One is CS6 which is licensed. other is CC that I pay monthly on my other laptop.

 

I get updates on CC..  I don't need updates on CS6 as long as it works. 

You're an angry elf, sheesh. Chill out. 

 

I guess I don't see what licensed version of Photoshop you have has anything to do with the conversation. It's a complete non-sequitor. 

[HawkMan]

You realize that the only difference between creative cloud and CS6 is that CS6 isn't going to get any updates? And that there will never be a CS7? You seem to think that CC is a paired down version of photoshop and that couldn't be any further from the truth. 

 

CC also has a few new advanced features that CS6 don't have, improved GUI and some other neat stuff like performance increases. 

[Ian W]

yes they are.

I'd say that the topic title should be "Is Microsoft ignoring tablet users?"

The desktop seems to be getting most of the attention with the Start menu, windowed Metro applications, multiple desktops, Cortana, the notification center, "Spartan," DirectX 12, et cetera, et cetera.

 

they started to castrate control panel, ...

How inappropriate of you.

 

Everyone wanted start menu back, and they added that horrible bastard child of classic start menu and start screen.

No they did not. I am very disappointed that the Start screen is not in build 9926. Even if it didn't offer all of the previous features when compared with the Start menu, I feel that it offered many improvements and I absolutely loved its options for categorization and customization.

 

More and more dialogs keep defaulting to metro dialogs instead of normal simple dialogs.

Which are, more or less, the same as the "normal simple dialogs"?

 

new icons are ######

Subjective.

 

cortana is useless.

Cortana is a work in progress.

 

needs a proper high DPI support, 4K monitors still not every useful.

Metro is designed to scale well.

[TAZMINATOR]

You're an angry elf, sheesh. Chill out. 

 

I guess I don't see what licensed version of Photoshop you have has anything to do with the conversation. It's a complete non-sequitor. 

 

Telling me to chill out on the internet? You are crazy.

 

I was making a conversation...  I don't care what YOU think or see.

[DConnell Member]

The start menu, really, isn't that hard to maintain.  I do love how you and Dot Matrix use the term "deep into..." and "convoluted mess"... kinda of like you two are on a long and arduous quest to find the missing sacred calculator program.

 

The all apps is a mess...way too much mouse travel...looking forward to being able to create folders and pop programs into them...like I'm able to with 7.

 

It's still much harder to maintain than the Screen, and far harder than it needs to be. Pinning items on the Menu was one of only 3 actual usable features it ever had (the others being Jump lists and Search), but it was crippled by the limited number of slots. The Screen lets you pin as much as you want (and more than just programs). and organize those pinned items into groups.

 

Really, the best feature the Menu ever had was search, because it let me effectively avoid using the Menu itself!

 

And why do you assume that if someone doesn't like the Menu, they only use their computer for the most basic functions? There's no need to be insulting.

[Skiver Veteran]

It's still much harder to maintain than the Screen, and far harder than it needs to be. Pinning items on the Menu was one of only 3 actual usable features it ever had (the others being Jump lists and Search), but it was crippled by the limited number of slots. The Screen lets you pin as much as you want (and more than just programs). and organize those pinned items into groups.

 

Really, the best feature the Menu ever had was search, because it let me effectively avoid using the Menu itself!

 

And why do you assume that if someone doesn't like the Menu, they only use their computer for the most basic functions? There's no need to be insulting.

 

I'm with you, I really don't like the new Start Menu (full screen or not) compared to the Win 8.1 Start Screen. I'm sure I'll get used to it but the preview I played around with just did not feel too fluid for me. Especially when I wanted to find an application that wasn't on my list.

 

Maybe I missed an option, but being able to sort by date installed and dropping down into all apps on win 8.1 was much easier than what the vertically scrolling list at the side seemed to offer.