formula 1 Formula 1 World Championship 2015 Season Discussion

[Skiver Veteran]

 

Red Bull's bullying attitude isn't healthy for the sport. They shouldn't be able to demand whatever they want because they happen to own two F1 teams - no one should be big enough to do that.

If  all they are going to do is be uncompetitive and very vocal about whinging about it, no one will be sad to see them leave.

And regarding Haas, money doesn't make you successful. See Brawn in 2009 vs McLaren this year. The only way I see them being successful is if they use the unlimited windtunnel testing they are allowed this year to plan ahead for the 2017 regs. If they just jump straight into a 2016 car they will be years behind with aero tech and will be sitting behind Manor.

Given how much money RedBull put into engines (an engine is roughly $15 million these days?) can you really blame them for being annoyed? I think you can forgive Renault one year of poor performance, but to be just as bad if not worse in the second is pretty unforgivable. You have to keep in mind that Red Bull as a team (forgetting their past success) are putting millions upon millions into Renault. Whilst having so many issues and penalties they aren't getting the points they need, they are possibly on the brink of quitting because of finances. 

Red Bull have built a good car, they've done their part but their engine manufacturer is not doing theirs. If you buy anything and it doesn't live up to it's potential you're going to be annoyed. Chances are if it was as bad as a Renault engine, you'd return it and look for something else. Perhaps write a review on Amazon warning others of their crappy quality and never buy it, why is this any different?

On top of all of this, we also have to keep in mind that Renault are the people who supported the switch to V6 Hybrid engines, they wanted this because it was more "relevant" to them and forget the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes who are fine with the V8's. They made their bed and now they are paying the price for not being able to put their money where their mouth is so I have very little sympathy for them.

As for the "we want Engine Parity with Ferrari" ? yeah that's a different case and they do need to learn to shut up. However I do take things with a pinch of salt however, this is the media and they love to stir up crap and take quotes out of context.

Oh I know money isn't everything, but it's a start. I'd argue Brawn is a special case because Honda pretty much spent pretty much all of 2008 developing that 2009 chassis whereas the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren went as long as possible in the title fight. Again, Mclaren this year is slightly different as they are now in a similar place to RBR in that they apppear to have a good chassis under them, the engine is so damn unreliable they can't run it at full power, and when they do it still isn't enough.

[vanx]

What and he's supposed to be announced as a Hass driver wearing his lotus gear, his casual clothes...cmon be sensible, of course he has to wear Hass stuff.  That's not his choice....it's the media and press, of course you have to wear the clothes of the team you've just been announced as the driver for.

Well that's the thing. I do not think that it is good to do such announcements in-season. First he is Lotus, then 2 days later he is Haas and then a week later he is Lotus again (in case you are thinking of pointing at Hulk doing Le Mans, that was not for a future competitor). Look what happened last year with Vettel. He didn't jump into Scuderia's clothes for a bit and then swapped back to Red Bull, did he?

[philcruicks]

Well that's the thing. I do not think that it is good to do such announcements in-season. First he is Lotus, then 2 days later he is Haas and then a week later he is Lotus again (in case you are thinking of pointing at Hulk doing Le Mans, that was not for a future competitor). Look what happened last year with Vettel. He didn't jump into Scuderia's clothes for a bit and then swapped back to Red Bull, did he?

I would have thought so yes, I can't find a pic to prove it, but no company is going to let you advertise a competitor when they announce you as doing something for them.

Be that an F1 driver or anything else.

[+Sledge Subscriber²]

Not classy of Grosjean to parade in another team's colours just days after Lotus crew struggled for food and had to ask other teams to help them. Lost quite a bit of respect for him there. Lotus issues aren't his fault, but don't tell me that him and Pastor couldn't have banged heads together and sorted out catering.

Not classy of Lotus to have an outstanding bill with HMRC. Once the tax man is after you to pay bills he has made the right decision to jump ship and go to Haas where he has a good chance of being paid on time.
 

The team struggling for food means they probably shouldn't be competing. First Kimi not being paid, then interviews where they say big influx of cash confirmed to be coming (Nope, didn't happen) then onto this year with unpaid bills.

He should be running as fast as he can go. Saying they should pay the catering bill? Hah, doubt he's even been paid himself.

[vanx]

I would have thought so yes, I can't find a pic to prove it, but no company is going to let you advertise a competitor when they announce you as doing something for them.

Well, you are free to think what you think, but Ferrari did not announce him as their driver until November 20th, just before the last GP in Abu Dhabi. And he didn't wear Ferrari colours until he put the driving suit on at the post-season test that started the day after. So good luck looking for that photo...

Not classy of Lotus to have an outstanding bill with HMRC. Once the tax man is after you to pay bills he has made the right decision to jump ship and go to Haas where he has a good chance of being paid on time.
The team struggling for food means they probably shouldn't be competing. First Kimi not being paid, then interviews where they say big influx of cash confirmed to be coming (Nope, didn't happen) then onto this year with unpaid bills.

He should be running as fast as he can go. Saying they should pay the catering bill? Hah, doubt he's even been paid himself.

I am not saying that it is wrong of him to go to another team. I am saying that the whole confirmation and unveiling bonanza could have been postponed until either last race or just after.

[what]

 

Given how much money RedBull put into engines (an engine is roughly $15 million these days?) can you really blame them for being annoyed? I think you can forgive Renault one year of poor performance, but to be just as bad if not worse in the second is pretty unforgivable. You have to keep in mind that Red Bull as a team (forgetting their past success) are putting millions upon millions into Renault. Whilst having so many issues and penalties they aren't getting the points they need, they are possibly on the brink of quitting because of finances. 

Red Bull have built a good car, they've done their part but their engine manufacturer is not doing theirs. If you buy anything and it doesn't live up to it's potential you're going to be annoyed. Chances are if it was as bad as a Renault engine, you'd return it and look for something else. Perhaps write a review on Amazon warning others of their crappy quality and never buy it, why is this any different?

On top of all of this, we also have to keep in mind that Renault are the people who supported the switch to V6 Hybrid engines, they wanted this because it was more "relevant" to them and forget the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes who are fine with the V8's. They made their bed and now they are paying the price for not being able to put their money where their mouth is so I have very little sympathy for them.

As for the "we want Engine Parity with Ferrari" ? yeah that's a different case and they do need to learn to shut up. However I do take things with a pinch of salt however, this is the media and they love to stir up crap and take quotes out of context.

Oh I know money isn't everything, but it's a start. I'd argue Brawn is a special case because Honda pretty much spent pretty much all of 2008 developing that 2009 chassis whereas the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren went as long as possible in the title fight. Again, Mclaren this year is slightly different as they are now in a similar place to RBR in that they apppear to have a good chassis under them, the engine is so damn unreliable they can't run it at full power, and when they do it still isn't enough.

If Red Bull want to blame anything, they should be blaming the regulations which limits how much development Renault can do on its engine. Mercedes and Ferrari have been able to develop their 2014 engines just as much as Renault leading into this year, so the chances are the delta in performance isn't going to change that much. If they brought back proper testing (not just sitting on a dyno, Honda will tell you how useless that is) and relaxed development rules, Renault might have stood a fighting chance.

I don't think buying from Amazon is a particularly good analogy. It's bad form for one company to publicly blame another for its failings. What makes it worse is that Red Bull have a history of complaining when things aren't going their way, so it tends to go over my head whenever Horner opens his mouth. If you also consider the bigger picture - it's not good PR for Renault's global business. If Red Bull's moaning ends up costing Renault customers, they will pull out of F1 as it won't be seen as good value, and then you're left with fewer engine suppliers, which I would argue is worse than fewer teams.

Fair enough they supported the change to V6s and didn't hit the ground running. But as I mentioned above the rules don't allow them to dig themselves out of the hole very easily, and it still doesn't excuse Red Bull's attitude.

[MightyJordan]

Any ieda's what this is about....

 

The answer has been revealed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpvzNFIFkVc

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/team/turbo-heroes-the-story-behind/

[philcruicks]

The answer has been revealed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpvzNFIFkVc

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/team/turbo-heroes-the-story-behind/

Haha, awesome, not at all what I was expecting.

[Skiver Veteran]

 

If Red Bull want to blame anything, they should be blaming the regulations which limits how much development Renault can do on its engine. Mercedes and Ferrari have been able to develop their 2014 engines just as much as Renault leading into this year, so the chances are the delta in performance isn't going to change that much. If they brought back proper testing (not just sitting on a dyno, Honda will tell you how useless that is) and relaxed development rules, Renault might have stood a fighting chance.

I don't think buying from Amazon is a particularly good analogy. It's bad form for one company to publicly blame another for its failings. What makes it worse is that Red Bull have a history of complaining when things aren't going their way, so it tends to go over my head whenever Horner opens his mouth. If you also consider the bigger picture - it's not good PR for Renault's global business. If Red Bull's moaning ends up costing Renault customers, they will pull out of F1 as it won't be seen as good value, and then you're left with fewer engine suppliers, which I would argue is worse than fewer teams.

Fair enough they supported the change to V6s and didn't hit the ground running. But as I mentioned above the rules don't allow them to dig themselves out of the hole very easily, and it still doesn't excuse Red Bull's attitude.

Regulations are restrictive sure, however I'd argue Renaults biggest issue isn't performance, its reliability. Renault had the same development time, development tokens as both Merc and Ferrari so blaming regulations is a little silly for their performance. All three manufacturers (not inc Honda here) have had the same opportunities, regulations haven't favoured any one of them.

Analogies are never as good as you hope them to be but I agree and disagree with you. They shouldn't be airing your dirty laundry in public, 100% agreeing with you on that one. However when you put the millions that these teams do into getting said engine, you can't blame a team for eventually loosing their nerve. I do think Horner has done a better job at showing his dissatisfaction towards the situation then mateschitz who throws his toys out the pram at every chance he gets but I like to think of him as more of a Red Bull guy than anything to do with F1.

I'm not sure what would hurt for the sport the most, fewer teams means less entertaining imo however if Renault drops out then the likes of RBR and TR can agree a deal with another manufacturer and keep racing. It's not what I'd like to see, I'd love to see the likes of more manufacturers jumping into the sport and running cars, VW/Audi have seemed to be on the brink of it for years.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

https://twitter.com/McLarenF1/status/649501415514198016

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

 

 

Ok, can someone tell me how to embed tweets in IPB 4?

[Skiver Veteran]

<snip>

 

Ok, can someone tell me how to embed tweets in IPB 4?

Fixed your post.

when you hit the reply button, bottom right of the box is a "insert other media" button, click it and select insert from URL, paste the Tweet URL in and jobs done. BB code isn't supported since the upgrade, not sure if it's planned or not.

[vanx]

Great news that we will hear more of JB's British optimism and snippy comments for an extra year. It will get old quickly if Honda once again are still too busy watching anime.

As for Manor settling for this year's Mercedes engines, that should give a hint to Red Bull that they should bite their tongue in demands of getting the latest unit.

[Skiver Veteran]

Great news that we will hear more of JB's British optimism and snippy comments for an extra year. It will get old quickly if Honda once again are still too busy watching anime.

As for Manor settling for this year's Mercedes engines, that should give a hint to Red Bull that they should bite their tongue in demands of getting the latest unit.

Let's face it, even if RBR stay with Renault for another year, chances are the year old spec Mercs will probably still match a 2017 Renault Power Unit. I believe they are still running a 2014 spec Ferrari engine which wasn't the best so this should hopefully give them a nice boost but unless they can get a good design in the car then I don't think it will mean much.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Great news that we will hear more of JB's British optimism and snippy comments for an extra year. It will get old quickly if Honda once again are still too busy watching anime.

As for Manor settling for this year's Mercedes engines, that should give a hint to Red Bull that they should bite their tongue in demands of getting the latest unit.

Manor will have 2016-spec engines:

 

[vanx]

Manor will have 2016-spec engines:

Ah, I read "current year" and assumed that they mean 2015 rather than when the next season actually starts.

[what]

 

Regulations are restrictive sure, however I'd argue Renaults biggest issue isn't performance, its reliability. Renault had the same development time, development tokens as both Merc and Ferrari so blaming regulations is a little silly for their performance. All three manufacturers (not inc Honda here) have had the same opportunities, regulations haven't favoured any one of them.

Analogies are never as good as you hope them to be but I agree and disagree with you. They shouldn't be airing your dirty laundry in public, 100% agreeing with you on that one. However when you put the millions that these teams do into getting said engine, you can't blame a team for eventually loosing their nerve. I do think Horner has done a better job at showing his dissatisfaction towards the situation then mateschitz who throws his toys out the pram at every chance he gets but I like to think of him as more of a Red Bull guy than anything to do with F1.

I'm not sure what would hurt for the sport the most, fewer teams means less entertaining imo however if Renault drops out then the likes of RBR and TR can agree a deal with another manufacturer and keep racing. It's not what I'd like to see, I'd love to see the likes of more manufacturers jumping into the sport and running cars, VW/Audi have seemed to be on the brink of it for years.

I think we should accept that everybody makes mistakes, but if the system doesn't give the teams the means to fix themselves, then the system is at fault. It's not sportsmanlike to be punishing a team in 2020 for mistakes they made in 2013.

Outside of the middle of the race and directly after, everything the teams say to the media is carefully orchestrated and rehearsed by a team of PR guys. Red Bull's have seen it fit to berate Renault every day for months on end, which comes across as bitching because they aren't dominating any more. I accept that the main man is putting a lot of money into the sport - I know the total figure between their two teams was over £1 billion a year when they were winning championships - however they would be better served using that clout to appeal for a fairer system. Instead, they are having a tantrum and thinking that perhaps somebody high up will feel sorry for them. I think it's done the opposite though and fewer people care whether or not they stay in the sport than six months ago. You can't win everything.

[Skiver Veteran]

Ah, I read "current year" and assumed that they mean 2015 rather than when the next season actually starts.

 

Yep same, thanks for the clarification Frank 

 

I think we should accept that everybody makes mistakes, but if the system doesn't give the teams the means to fix themselves, then the system is at fault. It's not sportsmanlike to be punishing a team in 2020 for mistakes they made in 2013.

Outside of the middle of the race and directly after, everything the teams say to the media is carefully orchestrated and rehearsed by a team of PR guys. Red Bull's have seen it fit to berate Renault every day for months on end, which comes across as bitching because they aren't dominating any more. I accept that the main man is putting a lot of money into the sport - I know the total figure between their two teams was over £1 billion a year when they were winning championships - however they would be better served using that clout to appeal for a fairer system. Instead, they are having a tantrum and thinking that perhaps somebody high up will feel sorry for them. I think it's done the opposite though and fewer people care whether or not they stay in the sport than six months ago. You can't win everything.

 

The problem with allowing more development time means the costs are going to go up. If Renault said to RB we can give you an engine that will do and be as reliable as a Merc engine but it will cost you an extra £5 million, they would probably open their cheque books and pay the man. Problem is the teams below that who are struggling as it is suddenly can't pay the bills and subsequently end up turning up to races and not being able to feed their team. We have to remember that the V8 engines were costing roughly half of the £18M the V6 Hybrid turbo's are costing and in the last few years we've seen BMW, Toyota and Caterham fall away due to costs. Lotus are on the verge of disappearing if Renault don't hurry up and buy a major stake with Sauber and Force India always struggling with costs. I can agree with what your saying to an extent, just remember development time has a cost, that cost will be put on teams and instead of maybe loosing RBR we'll lose half the field.

I get what you're saying but for a system to be "fair" everyone should be open to the same regulations, that means all that would happen is Merc would get some development time, Renault would make gains but not enough to match. 

Let's not forget that Ferrari at the beginning of last year Ferrari were exactly where Red Bull are now, going nowhere fast and down on power. A year later, they are on the edge of challenging Mercedes and winning races. Not to take away Ricciardo's win but some of them were off the back of Mercedes making some big mistakes. They made the gains required and hopefully next year will be even closer to matching Merc more often. They haven't done this outside of the regulations (or at least if they have, they've not been caught) so IMO there is no reason Renault shouldn't make the same gains.

I think if Renault had fixed their reliability issues but were still slow, I'd have a bit more sympathy for them but if anything, they are probably further behind and less reliable. They seem to be going backwards rather than forwards and when you're in a sport worth what it's worth and being paid what you're being paid to develop a product, it's just not good enough and they need to seriously look at what they are doing.

[MightyJordan]

Formula One faces the possibility of an investigation by the European Union after two teams lodged a complaint over anti-competitive practices within the sport.

Force India and Sauber have filed a complaint over how money is distributed within F1 and how its regulations are written.

Force India confirmed in a statement it is “one of two teams to have registered a complaint with the European Union questioning the governance of Formula One and showing that the system of dividing revenues and determining how Formula One’s rules are set is both unfair and unlawful”.

“Due to the ongoing legal discussions, it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time,” it added.

Sauber said it had lodged its complaint “for violation of European Competition Law challenging the rule making powers and privileges, which are harming the sport”, and added it could not comment further.

An EU spokesperson confirmed the teams’ complaint has been received and is being assessed.

According to a report in The Times, the complaint alleges F1 has given favourable payments worth hundreds of millions of pounds to five teams – Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren and Williams – putting their rivals at a disadvantage. Their smaller rivals have been further undermined by being largely shut out of the rule-making Strategy Group.

Last year Labour MEP Anneliese Dodds urged EU Competition Commissioner Margarethe Vestager to consider whether “smaller teams have been treated unfairly” in F1 in the wake of the collapse of Caterham and near-collapse of Marussia, now Manor.

Dodds, who visited Force India’s factory in July this year, welcomed the news a formal complaint had been submitted.

“This will help us get to the bottom of whether or not there are anti-competitive practices at the heart of Formula One – practices which can have a real impact on people’s lives when they lead to teams going into administration and workers losing their jobs,” Dodds told F1 Fanatic.

“I have said before that I think it is appropriate to raise this with the commissioner, and I look forward to hearing what she has to say.”

 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/09/29/two-teams-call-on-eu-to-investigate-f1/

[vanx]

Storm in a tea cup. If Force India and Sauber were any good, they would compete with Williams and Red Bull for higher spots in the standings and therefore get more money. But they get engines from Mercedes and Ferrari for a reason: to be a nuisance to Merc's and Ferrari's competition (and to make those engine companies money). Bob Fernley always complains. Sauber had that mess in Australia with GVG, so they can blame themselves too. If you can't compete on the track, the only option is to complain about stuff off-track. Simples.

[MightyJordan]

[MightyJordan]

[MightyJordan]

[MightyJordan]

[MightyJordan]