Germanwings/Lufthansa A320 down in France

[The Evil Overlord]

I say, go back to old school 747 piloting, 3 in the cockpit, least then if the co pilot is suicidal, there's someone in the cockpit that would have to be subdued if the pilot stepped out for a bathroom break

[Roger H. Veteran]

Doesn't the A380 have 4 up there?

[bonalste]

Does that work sufficiently well and quickly enough so that a determined pilot can't place the plane in an unrecoverable condition before ATC can respond? Would it work, for example, if a pilot decided to destroy the plane during takeoff or landing? It just seems like there's no remote control solution that covers this type of malice.

There are two pilots. Thats the failsafe. At the end of the day any pilot would know what to press to stop any outside influence such as, as I mentioned, simply turning off the engines mid-flight.

[+Red King Subscriber²]

So... motivation... religion / mental illness / life problems?

[FloatingFatMan]

There are two pilots. Thats the failsafe. At the end of the day any pilot would know what to press to stop any outside influence such as, as I mentioned, simply turning off the engines mid-flight.

 

At the end of the day, you just can't stop deliberate intent on the part of the actual pilots.  At some point, a human has to be in a position of trust, and you just have to.. trust them...

[xrobwx71]

No.

Not yet.

[Joni_78]

So... motivation... religion / mental illness / life problems?

 

He had suffered from depression but that was six years ago.

[bonalste]

At the end of the day, you just can't stop deliberate intent on the part of the actual pilots. At some point, a human has to be in a position of trust, and you just have to.. trust them...

Exactly. We trust taxi drivers not to deliberately crash, more relevant to bus drivers. We trust surgeons not to kill us, pharmacists not to tamper with, or give the wrong, medicine, we trust armed police not to shoot us, and yes, pilots not to deliberately crash.

I think we have to remember how rate an event like this is. There are many, many thousands of pilots in our skies. There have only been a couple of psychos.

I actually feel humbled that people put such trust in me. I find it horrific that someone would abuse that trust. In sure that most of us feel the same.

[FloatingFatMan]

I think we have to remember how rate an event like this is. There are many, many thousands of pilots in our skies. There have only been a couple of psychos.

 

I imagine though, that as a fellow pilot, this sort of thing leaves a pretty sour taste in your mouth... It's bound to affect trust, at least in the short term, and would tend to tar all pilots with suspicion.

[bonalste]

I imagine though, that as a fellow pilot, this sort of thing leaves a pretty sour taste in your mouth... It's bound to affect trust, at least in the short term, and would tend to tar all pilots with suspicion.

Can't afford to think like that, unfortunately. Good crew cooperation is more valuable to safe flying than suspicion.

Edit:

Actually, upon further thought, I will feel an increased level of nerousness the next time I leave the flight deck to h to the toilet. The sorry would be that this might cause pilots to hold it, which in itsel can lead to incapacitation.

[Skiver Veteran]

I say, go back to old school 747 piloting, 3 in the cockpit, least then if the co pilot is suicidal, there's someone in the cockpit that would have to be subdued if the pilot stepped out for a bathroom break

I don't see a reason why on the smaller Airbus planes, there couldn't be a policy of if one of the pilots needs to leave, an air steward/stewardess has to join the co-pilot in the cockpit until they return?

 

Sure they would be as much use as a chocolate tea pot in an emergency, but at the very least they are there to ensure nothing goes wrong. It seems like a very potentially easy solution to this problem. I'm sure there will be flaws but its a step closer to solving it.

[DocM]

Time to return to having "FE's"?

[bonalste]

I don't see a reason why on the smaller Airbus planes, there couldn't be a policy of if one of the pilots needs to leave, an air steward/stewardess has to join the co-pilot in the cockpit until they return?

Sure they would be as much use as a chocolate tea pot in an emergency, but at the very least they are there to ensure nothing goes wrong. It seems like a very potentially easy solution to this problem. I'm sure there will be flaws but its a step closer to solving it.

3 reasons.

1. The cabin crew wouldn't be able to stop you from, as per my previous example, shutting off the engines. I doubt they would even know what happened.

2. Cabin crew are generally small females. Easy to overpower if necessary, especially when you have an axe

3. Money. Time spent in the cockpit is time the crew could be out selling perfume.

[FloatingFatMan]

Can't afford to think like that, unfortunately. Good crew cooperation is more valuable to safe flying than suspicion.

Edit:

Actually, upon further thought, I will feel an increased level of nerousness the next time I leave the flight deck to h to the toilet. The sorry would be that this might cause pilots to hold it, which in itsel can lead to incapacitation.

 

I was thinking more from the point of view of a passenger, but you're right, there's going to be at least short term trust issues with crew, too.

[theyarecomingforyou]

3 reasons.

1. The cabin crew wouldn't be able to stop you from, as per my previous example, shutting off the engines. I doubt they would even know what happened.

2. Cabin crew are generally small females. Easy to overpower if necessary, especially when you have an axe

3. Money. Time spent in the cockpit is time the crew could be out selling perfume.

Exactly. Any pilot dedicated enough to crash a plane can do so. Remote piloting introduces other potential safety issues (i.e. hacking) and people don't trust autopilots to fly a plane without a backup human pilot. There isn't much that can be done, other than to improve the monitoring of pilots for signs of mental health issues.

[Joni_78]

Exactly. Any pilot dedicated enough to crash a plane can do so. Remote piloting introduces other potential safety issues (i.e. hacking) and people don't trust autopilots to fly a plane without a backup human pilot. There isn't much that can be done, other than to improve the monitoring of pilots for signs of mental health issues.

 Monitoring their mental health would not have any positive effects.

[Skiver Veteran]

3 reasons.

1. The cabin crew wouldn't be able to stop you from, as per my previous example, shutting off the engines. I doubt they would even know what happened.

2. Cabin crew are generally small females. Easy to overpower if necessary, especially when you have an axe

3. Money. Time spent in the cockpit is time the crew could be out selling perfume.

 

1: They may however be able to let the second pilot back in and I'd imagine if Engines can be turned off easily, they can go back on.

2: an Axe, Care to enlighten me on this one? I think making the generalisation that A: most are female and B this immediately means easy to overpower is a little stereotypical. Unless you can show me a study that says majority of cabin crew are female and under 5 ft? I've been on a fair few flights and I can't think of many where there wasn't at least 1 male crew member, not to mention the crew being just as tall, if not taller.

3: To my knowledge, this happens once and is generally not long after take off. Again, maybe this depends on the airline (I've mostly flown BA) but I can't recall many times where at most its been a single walk down the plane holding up one of the in-flight magazines. They tend to walk past so quickly I'd be surprised if you could catch them in time.

 

Like I said, its not a perfect solution, but its a start?  You seem to be dismissing it because it can't possibly work based on 3 IMO small and exaggerated reasons. I'm sure there are plenty people much clever then me that can come up with simple things to take care of some of the above too.

 

first one for instance... maybe you need some sort of dual authorisation to take a plane out of auto Pilot/turn engines off. If one pilot is out of the room then AP must be enabled. Again I know there will be flaws, but with enough thinking I am willing to bet there would be a way to make something like that work safely.

 

I also don't understand how with modern day technology, like my car being able to break suddenly all by itself if it detects a car stopping in front of me and I still have my foot on the accelerator they can't programme something in that would auto avoid a collision if it was detected.

[bonalste]

1: They may however be able to let the second pilot back in and I'd imagine if Engines can be turned off easily, they can go back on.

2: an Axe, Care to enlighten me on this one? I think making the generalisation that A: most are female and B this immediately means easy to overpower is a little stereotypical. Unless you can show me a study that says majority of cabin crew are female and under 5 ft? I've been on a fair few flights and I can't think of many where there wasn't at least 1 male crew member, not to mention the crew being just as tall, if not taller.

3: To my knowledge, this happens once and is generally not long after take off. Again, maybe this depends on the airline (I've mostly flown BA) but I can't recall many times where at most its been a single walk down the plane holding up one of the in-flight magazines. They tend to walk past so quickly I'd be surprised if you could catch them in time.

Like I said, its not a perfect solution, but its a start? You seem to be dismissing it because it can't possibly work based on 3 IMO small and exaggerated reasons. I'm sure there are plenty people much clever then me that can come up with simple things to take care of some of the above too.

first one for instance... maybe you need some sort of dual authorisation to take a plane out of auto Pilot/turn engines off. If one pilot is out of the room then AP must be enabled. Again I know there will be flaws, but with enough thinking I am willing to bet there would be a way to make something like that work safely.

I also don't understand how with modern day technology, like my car being able to break suddenly all by itself if it detects a car stopping in front of me and I still have my foot on the accelerator they can't programme something in that would auto avoid a collision if it was detected.

Most cabin crew are female. You can dispute this if you like. We have an axe in the cockpit. You are now enlightened. There is a method of shutting off the engines that makes them unrecoverable. In my airline at least, the cabin crew are constantly busy selling things. If one pilot gets incapacitated, e.g. heart attack, you need the other pilot to have the ability to take control.

[siah1214]

I think the biggest problem here is the complete lack of mental help for pilots.  In the US, if the FAA (or your employer) gets even a hint of you being depressed/anxious/unstable/ADHD they'll pull your medical and make you go through an expensive / time consuming process to get it back.  So pilots will do everything in their capacity to hide their mental health issues, never seek help or treatment, because if they do, their career is gone.  It's ridiculous.

[ThisSiteHasLostItsCharm]

don't they have some sort of keypad so people in the cockpit can go in and out?

 

maybe they should have a loo in the cockpit.

 

 

sounds like they need to do more complete mental health tests on pilots.

 

maybe someone who suffered from depression shouldn't be allowed to do certain jobs like flying.

[The Evil Overlord]

1: They may however be able to let the second pilot back in and I'd imagine if Engines can be turned off easily, they can go back on.

2: an Axe, Care to enlighten me on this one? I think making the generalisation that A: most are female and B this immediately means easy to overpower is a little stereotypical. Unless you can show me a study that says majority of cabin crew are female and under 5 ft? I've been on a fair few flights and I can't think of many where there wasn't at least 1 male crew member, not to mention the crew being just as tall, if not taller.

3: To my knowledge, this happens once and is generally not long after take off. Again, maybe this depends on the airline (I've mostly flown BA) but I can't recall many times where at most its been a single walk down the plane holding up one of the in-flight magazines. They tend to walk past so quickly I'd be surprised if you could catch them in time.

Like I said, its not a perfect solution, but its a start? You seem to be dismissing it because it can't possibly work based on 3 IMO small and exaggerated reasons. I'm sure there are plenty people much clever then me that can come up with simple things to take care of some of the above too.

first one for instance... maybe you need some sort of dual authorisation to take a plane out of auto Pilot/turn engines off. If one pilot is out of the room then AP must be enabled. Again I know there will be flaws, but with enough thinking I am willing to bet there would be a way to make something like that work safely.

I also don't understand how with modern day technology, like my car being able to break suddenly all by itself if it detects a car stopping in front of me and I still have my foot on the accelerator they can't programme something in that would auto avoid a collision if it was detected.

It's probably more just to be dismissive of me, as we have had arguements over a commercial pilot not making enough money to buy a watch, even though a truck driver (me) can

[Skiver Veteran]

It's probably more just to be dismissive of me, as we have had arguements over a commercial pilot not making enough money to buy a watch, even though a truck driver (me) can

 

I've been wrong on these forums more often than not, but I thought Commercial pilots earned a fortune?!

[siah1214]

Haha no.  Regional airline pilots make $15-20k a year, starting. Once you've been in the industry for 20+ years you might start making $80-100k but there's a long road to get there and if you're making $30-40k after school you're doing really well. 

[FloatingFatMan]

Most cabin crew are female. You can dispute this if you like. We have an axe in the cockpit. You are now enlightened. There is a method of shutting off the engines that makes them unrecoverable. In my airline at least, the cabin crew are constantly busy selling things. If one pilot gets incapacitated, e.g. heart attack, you need the other pilot to have the ability to take control.

 

Why would there be a means to disable the engines during flight?  I can understand the need to shut them down if there's a fire, but a permanent shutdown?

[Skiver Veteran]

Haha no.  Regional airline pilots make $15-20k a year, starting. Once you've been in the industry for 20+ years you might start making $80-100k but there's a long road to get there and if you're making $30-40k after school you're doing really well. 

 

I'm genuinely quite shocked by that, I would have expected more around the $80-100K.

 

Like I said, I'm generally pretty wrong in most of my assumptions