Using server 2003 as a workstation?

[ForkliftDude]

This document describes the improvements that have been made to the following areas:

? Scheduling

? Memory management

? Kernel spinlocks

? Heap

? Processes, threads, handles, objects, and named pipes

In addition, several other Windows Server 2003 features and components, such as Internet Information Services (IIS), Active Directory, and various networking components have been improved significantly. Although these improvements are not specifically outlined in this document, the improvement of the overall efficiency of the Windows kernel benefits a large number of services and applications.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/5...2fb/scaling.doc

and regarding the bigger quoted paragraph, no, this doesn't mean IIS is a kernel component.

[+BudMan MVC]

uhm, iis6 is NOT the reason the win2k3 kernel is versioned 5.2. it's the improvements in the memory manager and the different multiprocessor scheduler. whoever told you that iis thing has a nut missing. seriously.

--edit

need to add that to keep confusion low, because i expect it to turn up:

the iis http handler has been moved from the USER MODE into the KERNEL MODE, not into the KERNEL itself.

kernel mode == priviledged, user mode == non-priviledged.

Um where did he say that it was MOVED into the kernel??

"IIS is now integrated more with the kernel and has improved performance because of this"

That does NOT say it was moved into the kernel - you statement just supports that - "5.2. it's the improvements in the memory manager and the different multiprocessor scheduler"

---

IIS 6.0 enables you to configure application pools to establish affinity between worker processes and specific processors in a multiprocessor computer. Processor affinity, when set, enables IIS to efficiently use the caches on multiprocessor servers.

The HTTP listener is implemented as a kernel-mode device driver called the HTTP protocol stack (HTTP.sys). IIS 6.0 uses HTTP.sys, which is part of the networking subsystem of the Windows operating system, as a core component.

Using HTTP.sys and the new WWW service architecture provides the following benefits:

When a worker process fails, service is not interrupted; the failure is undetectable by the user because the kernel queues the requests while the WWW service starts a new worker process for that application pool.

Requests are processed faster because they are routed directly from the kernel to the appropriate user-mode worker process instead of being routed between two user-mode processes.

HTTP.sys provides the following services in IIS 6.0:

Routing HTTP requests to the correct request queue.

Caching of responses in kernel mode.

Performing all text-based logging for the WWW service.

Implementing Quality of Service (QoS) functionality, which includes connection limits, connection timeouts, queue-length limits, and bandwidth throttling.

---

This type of info can all be found here http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/...iis/default.asp

edit:

kernel-mode device driver called the HTTP protocol stack (HTTP.sys) / Requests are processed faster because they are routed directly from the kernel to the appropriate user-mode worker process instead of being routed between two user-mode processes. <--- Sure seems like "More" integration with the Kernel if you ask me ;)

Edited February 8, 2004 by BudMan

[ForkliftDude]

maybe i took it wrong, but still, gameguy says that the reason for the update/version change would be IIS. that's plain stupid.

do you want to know the exact reason the kernel was updated in server 2003? i bet everyone wants to know. i'm going to tell everyone why the kernel was modified in a (hopefully successful, yet surely hopeless) attempt at ending this god-forsaken madness. the reason? it's an acronym: IIS. internet information services. the ONLY reason the kernel version changed from 5.1 to 5.2 is because of IIS 6.

IIS is not the reason, it just takes profit of the changes. it's a frickin' server OS, do you think the improvements went in there just because of IIS? no, they didn't. assuming that is stupid.

Sure seems like "More" integration with the Kernel if you ask me

...

running in kernel mode isn't anything near "more integration". if that were the case, then MY version of windows integrates PGP in the kernel, because it's also a kernel mode driver.

Edited February 8, 2004 by ForkliftDude

[cpu killer]

0,o...

I cant believe this is still alive :p....

ah well, keep stomping yourselves :p.

[+BudMan MVC]

Why would changes to the kernel to improve perfomance of one the MAIN reasons for a server - ie to SERVE up webpages, to THOUSANDS of users at the same time be stupid?

I am sure that all of the reasons for the changes were not 100% because of IIS, but it would NOT be stupid to assume that atleast some of the reasoning behind specific changes were in support of one of their TOP selling points, which is IIS.

And again - I believe his points were more to the reasoning that changes were made to the kernel to support SERVER related stuff - NOT so your machine would work better as a workstation. Will some/all of the improvements be implemented in the workstation version - ie SP2 for XP, most likely yes!

But I believe his points were more to running a $4000 OS because there is a change in the Kernel - which most likely will have NO effect on workstation type performance is STUPID!!! Just because the version number changed - does NOT mean that there was any improvement in how the kernel will perform as a WORKSTATION.

[ForkliftDude]

sweet jesus, don't tempt me!

gameguy said, let me quote again:

the ONLY reason the kernel version changed from 5.1 to 5.2 is because of IIS 6.

i call bull all over that line! which you dont seem to get! we're talking about an improved kernel, not that stupid http.sys, which is just another driver, like your gfxcard driver, sndcard driver, nic driver and so on. the kernel changes are to improve ANY server application running on win2k3, not solely IIS.

and oh, these kernel improvements also affect client related stuff. any changes that speed up scheduling, improve memory management and so on will also affect the client.

but yeah, using a multi-thousand dollar os, for a mere 1-2% improvement (if at all), is stupid.

[+BudMan MVC]

but yeah, using a multi-thousand dollar os, for a mere 1-2% improvement (if at all), is stupid.

So we agree - so why exactly are we arguing?

Maybe all of the changes to the kernel were all for IIS to function better. I highly doubt that - and really do not believe that GameGuy knows this either - but taken in context with his WHOLE post, I do not believe his intent was to make such a claim.

Could he have worded it slightly better - maybe, we will need GameGuy to comment on your take on his post to know for sure.

But I am curious how you feel that moving something to work closer with the kernel - ie a kernel mode driver vs usermode can not be considered better integration with the kernel?

--

"IIS can isolate an individual Web application or multiple sites into a self-contained process (called an application pool) that communicates directly with the operating system kernel."

"communicates directly with the operating system kernel." <--- According to MS, it now directly communicates with the OS kernel, how can you NOT consider that better integration??

--

BTW - did you read the DOC you posted about the kernel changes?

--

Summary

Kernel improvements in Windows Server 2003 provide scalability gains for large x86-based and 64-bit systems with eight or more processors. Specifically, improved scheduling, memory management, kernel spinlocks, and heap functionality coupled with enhancements to process creation, threads, handles, objects, and named pipes give Windows Server 2003 significantly enhanced scalability on large enterprise class multiprocessor systems.

--

Where exactly in that Summary does it point out that any of the changes will have any effect on how fast WORD opens, or how many frames second your going to be able to get with UNreal? Or that neowin will open faster? The way I read that is on LARGE x86 based or 64bit systems with 8 or more cpu's they have significantly enhanced the scalability.

But overall I think we are in agreement ;)

[ForkliftDude]

Where exactly in that Summary does it point out that any of the changes will have any effect on how fast WORD opens, or how many frames second your going to be able to get with UNreal?

goddamnit!

- the scheduler requires cpu time! the faster it is, the more net cpu time is available for applications.

- the memory manager requires cpu time! the faster it can allocate and deallocate memory, the more net cpu time is available for applications.

- [insertoptimizedsubsystemhere] requires cpu time! the faster it [insertsystemspecificjobhere], the more net cpu time is available.

and an item that affects my configuration. A LOT:

- kernel spinlocks cause cpu time to be wasted, the less spinlocks, the more net cpu time.

while it wont be much, it is an improvement. especially when it's about scheduling and memory allocation!

now kthxbye

[idbuythatforadollar]

DIE THREAD, DIE

[TranceSphere]

:sleep:

[+BudMan MVC]

I completely and UTTERLY agree - And these changes could make a HUGE difference in performance when your talking about hundreds of proccesses, or our thousands of requests for a webpage, etc.. etc..

But to a normal user, going to neowin, and or running unreal, launching word, ppt, etc.. I HIGHLY doubt these changes would even be noticed! PERIOD!!

There is NO reason to believe that any of the changes to the kernel could in the LEAST speed up a normal/properly configured workstation type piece of hardware running XP.

Spinlock has been around since 2k - 2003 just has a new one, "in-stack queued spinlock" - which I can not really see have much impact on a single user workstation - now would it.

And again I agree there are many scalability improvements in the Memory Management - take AWE for example, it is now possible for my copy of SQL server to access physical memory up to 64 GB - SWEET!!! Sure this is being used alot on a 13 year old's desktop!!

And I am sure that the replacement of global wait lists and ready queues with per-processor wait lists and ready queues makes one hell of a difference on SINGLE cpu machines ;) And with NUMA - which the new kernel now supports, I am guessing there will be VAST increases in - oh wait again billy is running this on his $800 dell that Mommy bought him for his 14th B-day, highly doubt have much use for NUMA on that piece of hardware.

Could you please point out how these kernel changes have any bearing on a single cpu machine with say 512 or say 1gig of ram, running at best maybe a raid 0 IDE array. With let say maybe 3 or 4 apps open, and winamp playing in the background. How exactly will these changes have an improvement on my overall desktop performance??

And since we both agree that it makes no sense to run a multi-thousand dollar version of the os as for workstation use. No need to agree again that NONE Of these changes - which even if they had a bearing on the desktop machine usage would be worth the COST.

[darkmark327]

No, don't die, this is actually interesting for once, since the arguments go beyond "Don't use it just because it's a server and higher version numbers make you l33t" vs. "I can't be bothered to spend 10 minutes tweaking XP so let me use Server instead and turn it back into XP"

I don't think the cost argument really matters, since most people who would pirate server probably have pirated XP anyway, and many colleges (mine included) have site licenses and/or MSDNAA (MSDN Academic Alliance), either of which let you get lots of MS software for free or S&H.

[John Veteran]

gameguy said, let me quote again:

the ONLY reason the kernel version changed from 5.1 to 5.2 is because of IIS 6.

i call bull all over that line! which you dont seem to get! we're talking about an improved kernel, not that stupid http.sys, which is just another driver, like your gfxcard driver, sndcard driver, nic driver and so on. the kernel changes are to improve ANY server application running on win2k3, not solely IIS.

i shouldn't have said IIS was the ONLY reason the kernel was changed, but it was undoubtedly the biggest benefactor and the number 1 reason it was changed at all... also, how many server applications use some part of IIS? IIS is more than a web/ftp server, and a lot of the server apps in windows run on or through IIS. so while technically you're correct, it doesn't really matter because MOST (not all, i can't prove that) subsystems that would need a modified kernel would be using some part of IIS anyway.

darkmark: how many of these people on here who use server 2003 as a workstation do you think are in college? how many of those do you think are in a college that has an MSDNAA agreement? piracy is wrong either way, so anyone who pirates either piece of software just doesn't know what they're doing.

[freakyfriday]

okay... lets say this one last time...

IT'S A SERVER OS!!!

It doesn't manage memory any differently, tho it does handle drivers and multimedia differently. It was meant to be installed on a box that does NOT have games, apps, etc running on it ever beyond those involved in a client/server environment. there is a reason it's called 2003 -*SERVER*-

http://joshandbrandi.com/v3/pics/Funny%20P...ore/q3cdkey.jpg

go spam another thread you loser...

[dougkinzinger]

Easy there, FF...

[freakyfriday]

Easy there, FF...

sorry... he just ****ed me off so much

[John Veteran]

what happened to this thread? :huh: 240 posts and suddenly it stops? i'm somewhat disappointed only one person argued my post...

[redvamp128]

From what I read- Seems as if most peoples definition of a workstation - is making it just like XP- Why even bother-...Problems with software installing (though with certain tools it is possible ) Application Compatablitiy Toolkit 3.0 .... Even with tools that it has some things cannot run. Yes it does handle memory a little different. Though you can set xp to run things as sutch. Right click My Computer choose properties..Then Advanced Tab- then Performance settings button then advanced tab again. and set both to Background Services (though most people undo this difference when changing/using it as a workstaion). Also by default alot of the services are turned off which by using blackvipers guide- Unsure if I can direct link to you but you can do a search for blackviper xp services in any search engine and it should come up.

Now Installing things like games/movie maker 2 is possible- though the only reason to do the games- is sheer boredom..and movie maker 2 - only would benefit a Multimedia Server- (which major changes using Compatability Administrator Tool with custom Shims- is the only way to get that to install and run properly.)

Pretty mutch all the guides to changing it to a workstation seem to make it act/look/feel like Xp. Which there are more guides availible to tweak the performance in XP. The limits to the server OS you will soon find is that common devices will offer little to no support.

Yes it does support DX9 but not OpenGl withouth major changes... It also handles DX different than the way it would in XP.(not any better or worse just different and in a more indirect access from hardware)

Now before I get too long winded...I ran it both as a server and as a workstation.. and find it to be a good Server OS. But lacking as far as a workstation for common functionality without encountering issues involving either drivers and software installation.

[raid517]

Who gives a f*ck? Use it for what you want. Who cares if some nut who hasn't had a girl for 5 years (or ever) sits alone in their bedroom stressing out over what other people do on their PCs? The whole damn lot of them belong in a loony bin.

GJ

[redvamp128]

They just asked for the advantages and I could find none really other than more hassles than just running XP.

I have ran it as both.

Plus without having kindly features built into Xp as a System Restore- (though it can be installed but only after major changes or using tweaking applictions)

That would also show a disadvantage.

[John Veteran]

Who gives a f*ck? Use it for what you want. Who cares if some nut who hasn't had a girl for 5 years (or ever) sits alone in their bedroom stressing out over what other people do on their PCs? The whole damn lot of them belong in a loony bin.

GJ

please, tell me i'm somehow wrong, instead of being immature...

[semaja2.net]

dont use it as a workstation it is slow an dnot worth it trust me i did it and i crashed my comp

[redvamp128]

Actually he asked any advantages and disadvantages but really should have included a poll to go along with it.

Yes advantages to running as a workstation.

No too many disadvantages running as a workstation.

Does it really matter (WHO CARES).

I have no opinion.

That should have been the choices

[Got3n]

I have never had a problem with 2k3 as a workstation, i wish that everyone would use it.

(Goten)

[raid517]

please, tell me i'm somehow wrong, instead of being immature...

No but I will tell that you are a total nut - to get a life and to butt out of other people's business. What gives you the right tp proclaim over what other people do, or do not do in the privacy of their own homes? Or in the deepest parts of your delusional fantasy, do you believe that you are a member of some kind of thought police, that can determine what other people should be allowed to think and do?

Like I said mate, you're a loon - lets face it. And no one here gives a damn what you think.

Clear enough now?

GJ