At least 17 dead in Florida school shooting, law enforcement says

[DocM]

8 minutes ago, Nogib said:

And yet they said and did NOTHING.  From what I've seen, the warning signs were all over the place plain as day.  FFS, there needed to be some sort of intervention with unhinged individuals like this, not complacent nonchalance!

 

This is usually the case, and unfortunately it's very difficult to break the "don't rat..." or "none of my business" mindsets. 

[FloatingFatMan]

2 hours ago, DocM said:

 

This is usually the case, and unfortunately it's very difficult to break the "don't rat..." or "none of my business" mindsets. 

Until this mindset is fixed, and until your already good enough gun laws are actually enforced, mass shootings will continue to happen.

[DocM]

2 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Until this mindset is fixed, and until your already good enough gun laws are actually enforced, mass shootings will continue to happen.

One of the big problems from 2009-2016 was lax enforcement of federal gun laws, with prosecutions taking a big nosedive. 

 

Worse, the govt did stupid programs where they'd actually arranged gun sales to criminals & drug cartels hoping to track them to higher ups. Think about it; the govt actually arranging straw sales! Problem: only about 10% of the weapons were equipped with trackers.

 

Etc.

[ATLien_0]

As I've said in previous threads , what has changed in the last 15-20 years in regards to students going unhinged and resorting to this kind of violence (this kind of stuff didn't happen to this extent as far as I'm aware pre mid 90s). Is it social and digital pressure? Gunlaws didn't cause the kid or any previous shooter like this to go unhinged. As far as I'm concerned we have two maybe three issues that this country needs to address. 

One being the ability to see the signs and do something to help fix it.

Second being the gun laws , preventing a kid like this that is unhinged from getting one. (Bandaid affect if the student is really intent on doing harm he will find another way)

Third being and I hate saying this , but more drills at schools and protection. 

[shockz]

28 minutes ago, wv@gt said:

As I've said in previous threads , what has changed in the last 15-20 years in regards to students going unhinged and resorting to this kind of violence (this kind of stuff didn't happen to this extent as far as I'm aware pre mid 90s). Is it social and digital pressure? Gunlaws didn't cause the kid or any previous shooter like this to go unhinged. As far as I'm concerned we have two maybe three issues that this country needs to address. 

One being the ability to see the signs and do something to help fix it.

Second being the gun laws , preventing a kid like this that is unhinged from getting one. (Bandaid affect if the student is really intent on doing harm he will find another way)

Third being and I hate saying this , but more drills at schools and protection. 

Bullying is an entirely different world now. You can't escape it after leaving school... there's social media (pic/comment shaming on facebook, instagra, snapchat, etc...) texting, etc etc etc. Teachers can only go so far outside of school, parents probably don't know the extent of the bullying on social media, and if they do, other kids parents probably think they're an angel and kid can cover tracks well, either due to skill or parents ineptitude toward technology. These kids can be constantly barraged by their peers 24/7 now, adding into the fact that outside their peers, any one has a megaphone now and can harp on attributes these kids may have.

[ncoday]

6 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Until this mindset is fixed, and until your already good enough gun laws are actually enforced, mass shootings will continue to happen.

I agree! It is truly sad

 

The item I find interesting is the rumor that the FBI had been warned about this guy back in Sept '17, yet nothing happened.

[Skiver Veteran]

59 minutes ago, ncoday said:

I agree! It is truly sad

 

The item I find interesting is the rumor that the FBI had been warned about this guy back in Sept '17, yet nothing happened.

I would imagine, regrettably, various law enforcement is warned about these types of thing on a daily basis. I'm not suggesting for one second they don't take them seriously but the volume of them must be overwhelming. If the kid had an untreated mental illness or no previous records he may have been looked at and dismissed. If this was just a sudden and horrific snap then there's little many could have done to predict it. 

 

Anyone claiming that they aren't surprised by this are saying this with the knowledge of hindsight, it's much easier after the event to see the signs may have been there.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Skiver

[Jazmac]

10 hours ago, BritBronco said:

As long as we have spineless cowards in all three branches, nothing is going to get better.

 

They are quick to use the phrase, "thoughts and prayers",  like some bumper sticker. My question is What are those "thoughts?" I bet big money, you didn't have any thoughts worth a crap.  There is no reason for civilians to own assault weapons in America, and the only reason they exist is to eliminate personnel. You can't even go hunting with 'em but for some reason, mass killing of children is acceptable use. smdh.  Nut case Laura Ingram said, the AR-15 is safe. One hour later, parents are planning to bury their children. Lets not even talk about those in critical condition in area hospitals.

[+Eternal Tempest MVC]

12 hours ago, warwagon said:

I want to know is, what has changed in the last 20 years that has created such evil demented individuals who wish to carry out such horrible shootings, Bad Parenting?

A good question that I think only sociologists may be able to come up with a good answer. 

Could be a complex combination that evolves parenting, social media, lack of available of mental health care (that no one wants to pay for). 

Could also be a physical condition such as chemical imbalance, brain issue. 

Where they on prescription drugs that contributed to it?

 

Some times, there is just bad apples.

 

 

[shockz]

46 minutes ago, Jazmac said:

They are quick to use the phrase, "thoughts and prayers",  like some bumper sticker. My question is What are those "thoughts?" I bet big money, you didn't have any thoughts worth a crap.  There is no reason for civilians to own assault weapons in America, and the only reason they exist is to eliminate personnel. You can't even go hunting with 'em but for some reason, mass killing of children is acceptable use. smdh.  Nut case Laura Ingram said, the AR-15 is safe. One hour later, parents are planning to bury their children. Lets not even talk about those in critical condition in area hospitals.

Don't forget that talking about it right now is "too soon".

 

If nothing changed after Sandy Hook, then this won't do anything all. I mean, the crazies think Sandy Hook was a false flag. There's no hope for any meaningful discussion.  

[shockz]

6 hours ago, DocM said:

One of the big problems from 2009-2016 was lax enforcement of federal gun laws, with prosecutions taking a big nosedive. 

 

Worse, the govt did stupid programs where they'd actually arranged gun sales to criminals & drug cartels hoping to track them to higher ups. Think about it; the govt actually arranging straw sales! Problem: only about 10% of the weapons were equipped with trackers.

 

Etc.

Explain how anything of what you said would of negated the sale of guns to this current shooter? Standard loaded political post, how convenient you specified basically Obama's tenure as the time frame when these problems have existed before (and after)

10 hours ago, DocM said:

 

This is usually the case, and unfortunately it's very difficult to break the "don't rat..." or "none of my business" mindsets. 

Except that people warned authorities this time, to where FBI was made aware.

[Mockingbird]

Superintendent: 'Now is the time to have real conversation on gun control.' 

[Mockingbird]

Jaime Guttenberg

 

Student Jaime Guttenberg is the first confirmed fatality. Local outlet ABC News 10 reported that Guttenberg’s parents were notified that she died in the shooting after they had shared pictures of her on social media in hopes of locating her amid the panic. Guttenberg’s Facebook page has since been turned into a memorial. Her brother Jesse Guttenberg is reported to be alive.

 

 

Early Thursday her father, Fred Guttenberg, confirmed his daughter's death in a "violent shooting at her school" on Facebook and called on people to "hold your children tight."

 

 

Gina Montalto

 

Montalto was friends with Guttenberg and the two took part in the The Friendship Initiative—an outreach group for children and young people with special needs—said the group’s Founder and President Jeb Niewood said in a Facebook post Thursday. Niewood confirmed Montalto’s death. “Our hearts are shattered because both Jaime and Gina were killed yesterday in the attack at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School,” Niewood wrote. “Both these young girls gave their hearts and love as volunteers.”

 

 

Alyssa Alhadeff

 

The soccer club that Alhadeff played with confirmed her death on Thursday in a Facebook post. “Alyssa will be greatly missed. Our thoughts and prayers go out to her family and all the other victims of this tragic event,” said the South Florida United Youth Soccer Association in the post which included a message from Alhadeff’s parents. “To Alyssa’s Friends honor Alyssa by doing something fabulous in your life. Don’t ever give up and inspire for greatness. Live for Alyssa! Be her voice and breathe for her,” they said.

 

 

Martin Duque

 

The 14-year-old freshman who was reported missing on Wednesday was confirmed to have died by Miguel Duque in a post on Instagram. “Words can not describe my pain. I love brother Martin you’ll be missed buddy. I know you’re in a better place. Duques forever man I love you junior!!!,” he wrote. Martin Duque is pictured in the right of the photo on Instagram.

 

 

Chris Hixon

 

The Sun Sentinel reported the school's athletic director, Chris Hixon, was shot during the attack. Other outlets, including the Daily Mail, are reporting that Hixon has died. The school’s athletic staff confirmed he was among those with gunshot wounds.

 

Aaron Feis

 

Football coach Aaron Feis was among the first victims identified. The school's football team confirmed his death on Twitter early Thursday. Students told the Miami Herald that he was shot shielding them from gunfire. “We lost a football coach today,” Sheriff Israel told reporters Wednesday, but did not name Feis. He was later reported to be alive but in critical condition by CBS12. His death was confirmed early Thursday.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/who-are-victims-florida-high-school-mass-shooting-what-we-know-so-far-807977

Edited February 15, 2018 by Mockingbird

[+Warwagon MVC]

2 hours ago, Eternal Tempest said:

A good question that I think only sociologists may be able to come up with a good answer. 

Could be a complex combination that evolves parenting, social media, lack of available of mental health care (that no one wants to pay for). 

Could also be a physical condition such as chemical imbalance, brain issue. 

Where they on prescription drugs that contributed to it?

 

Some times, there is just bad apples.

 

3

Exactly!! A good majority of the kids are diagnosed as ADHD and thrown on drugs which turns them into zombies. When I was in high school in 1995-1998 I had never even heard of ADHD now everyone has it. My friend has a kid who has "ADHD", the kid also pounds on the sweet and sugar too. This same friend has horrible parenting skills and because of that, the child is a little monster.

 

One day I was sitting on their couch in the living room and the kid was misbehaving on the floor

 

The Mother: "You do that one more time and you are going up to your room for the rest of the night"

The Child: Keeps misbehaving

The Mother: What did I tell you, you keep doing that and I'll send you up to your room

 

Now repeat about 3 more times

 

Finally, she snaps screams at the child and sends him to his room. While in his room the child is going psychotic, you would have had to of heard it in person to get the full effect, but he was screaming at the top of his lungs as if possessed. He throws that tantrum for about 10 mins. Then he comes out of his room a kneels down to the vent. (It's an old house and you can look straight down into the living room.

 

Child (He was 9 at the time): Mommy can I come back down?

Mother: NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT DID I TELL YOU!!

 

Now repeat that about 5 mins

 

Then all of the sudden the child appears next to his mothers chair despite being told what would happen to him if he did.

 

Child "Can I come back down?"

The Mother "Only if you sit on the floor and behave"

 

My mouth almost dropped to the floor, I couldn't believe what I had just witnessed

[Mockingbird]

Meadow Pollack

 

10:30 a.m. Thursday UPDATE: Meadow Pollack, a student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School who went missing after Wednesday’s shooting, has died, her father , Andrew Pollack, said Thursday morning.

 

 

Original post: Andrew Pollack went to Broward North Hospital on Wednesday afternoon, looking for his daughter.

 

 

Meadow Pollack goes to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School where a gunman is said to have killed multiple people during the school day. As of 6:30 p.m., it was still unclear how many people are dead.

 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime--law/broward-school-shooting-family-searching-for-student-high-school/d1AdI2YsRpUMGX4JzKuN8J/

[Xenon]

 

[DocM]

2 hours ago, shockz said:

Explain how anything of what you said would of negated the sale of guns to this current shooter? Standard loaded political post, how convenient you specified basically Obama's tenure as the time frame when these problems have existed before (and after)

 

Decreased federal enforcement begets more  sales to those ineligible.  Under Obama these prosecutions dropped by over 40%. That said, neither side has clean hands here as out of 40-50,000 cases of banned persons lying on the firearm purchase forms only about 200 are prosecuted (just 44 under  Obama in 2010.)

 

Lotsof excuses, like it distracted them from other things like gangs or other priorities. 

 

You  don't see a disconnect here?

 

Quote

Except that people warned authorities this time, to where FBI was made aware.

 

Yup, and largely because of the progressive-pushed changes made to mental health and privacy laws in the 70's and 80's he couldn't be put on a psychiatric hold. Without that hold he couldn't be denied the right to a gun sales or possession. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by DocM

[Rohdekill]

15 hours ago, warwagon said:

Not getting into a gun argument here, but it's not that. That's just a tool to carry it out. What is the motivation behind it.

It's not all "gun culture".  Although, there would be no fringe to the 2nd amendment if only single shot guns (requiring re-load each time) were legalized.  No where does it say you have the right to own a gun that can disperse x number of rounds per minute.

 

Instant media access and fame are the biggest culprits in twisting and escalating people's mentality from killing just their intended target to that of a mass number.

[Mockingbird]

The victims of the Douglas High mass shooting

 

The identities of some of the 17 people killed in the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School are starting to emerge.

 

Jaime Guttenberg

 

 

Guttenberg was a student at the school, was killed during the rampage. Her father, Fred, shared the tragic news in a Facebook post.

 

“My heart is broken. Yesterday, Jennifer Bloom Guttenberg and I lost our baby girl to a violent shooting at her school. We lost our daughter and my son Jesse Guttenberg lost his sister. I am broken as I write this trying to figure out how my family get's through this. We appreciate all of the calls and messages and we apologize for not reacting to everyone individually. Jen and I will be figuring things out today and so we ask that you respect out privacy. We will be getting messages out later regarding visitation. Hugs to all and hold your children tight.”

 

Martin Duque, 14

 

 

 

Duque was a 14-year-old freshman, was at school Wednesday and died in the shooting. His older brother Miguel, who graduated from Douglas High last year, shared the news via an Instagram post early Thursday morning. “Words can not describe my pain,” he wrote. “I love brother Martin you’ll be missed buddy.”

 

Alyssa Alhadeff, 15

 

 

Alhadeff was a 15-year-old freshman, had been reported missing by her grandmother on Wednesday after the shooting. Her cousin Ariella Del Quaglio confirmed the student's death via Facebook on Thursday.

 

 

Aaron Feis

 

Feis was an assistant football coach who was critically injured after jumping in front of the shooter to protect students, died from his wounds early Thursday morning. The school’s football team announced the news on its Twitter account.

 

 

Gina Montalto, 14

 

 

Montalto was a 14-year-old freshman, served on the school’s winter guard team. She died late Wednesday night, friends and family confirmed on social media. Montalto had been missing after the shooting and was not answering her phone.

 

One of her color guard instructors from middle school, Manuel Miranda, posted about her death Wednesday night.

 

“My heart is broken into pieces. I will forever remember you my sweet angel,” Miranda told the Miami Herald. Miranda taught Montalto last year at Westglades Middle School in Broward. “She was the sweetest soul ever. She was kind, caring always smiling and wanting to help.”

 

The Stoneman Douglas winter guard group was scheduled to perform at a regional event in Tampa this weekend.

 

Nicholas Dworet

 

 

Dworet a senior who had just received a swimming scholarship to the University of Indianapolis, was killed. Glenn Greenwald, a journalist with The Intercept, shared the news on Twitter.

 

 

Luke Hoyer

 

Hoyer was confirmed to have died on the third floor of the school by family members.

“This has devastated our family and we’re all in shock and disbelief. Our hearts are broken. Luke was a beautiful human being and greatly loved,” posted his uncle, Toni Brownlee on Facebook. “Also, pray for the other families whose loved were also murdered so cruelly.”

 

His aunt, Mary Stroud-Gibbs, also shared her pain: “Our Luke was a precious child, who just went to school yesterday not knowing what was to come.”

 

Carmen Schentrup

 

Schentrup was a 2017 National Merit Scholar semifinalist, was confirmed dead Thursday morning by several friends on social media.

 

 

 

Meadow Pollack

 

Pollack was a senior, planned to to attend Lynn University. She was confirmed dead early Thursday.

 

“Please say a prayer for the family of an amazing girl I got to call my bestfriend growing up,” posted her friend Gii Lovito on Facebook. “Her life was taken way too soon and I have no words to describe how this feels.”

 

 

Joaquin Oliver

 

Oliver was 17, was born in Venezuela and moved to the U.S. at the age of three with his family. He had become a U.S. citizen in Jan. 2017.

 

His Instagram account includes several photos with his mother and sister, with whom he was extremely close. His girlfriend Victoria González confirmed he was killed in the massacre.

 

 

Alaina Petty

 

 

Petty was 14, she was confirmed dead, according to friends and family.

 

“There are no hashtags for moments like this, only sadness,” said Claudette McMahon Joshi, Petty’s great aunt. “ Our hearts are with them and all the families touched by this tragedy.”

 

Cara Loughran

 

 

Loughran was confirmed dead by a peer counselor at her church.

 

“RIP Cara, and fly with the angels. You will be greatly missed, and we will always love you and celebrate your beautiful life,” her neighbor wrote on Facebook.

 

Chris Hixon

 

Hixon was the athletic director at the high school, he was confirmed dead by family and friends Thursday. He previously served as South Broward’s athletic director.

 

 

Alex Schachter

 

Schachter was a marching band student, was confirmed dead by a former instructor as well as by Congregation Beth Am in Longwood.

 

Scott Beige, 35

 

 

Beige was a geography teacher at the school who unlocked his classroom to allow panicked students to take shelter inside during the shooting. He was struck and killed by a bullet while closing the door behind them.

 

Kelsey Friend, one of the students whose lives he saved, told CNN "When he opened the door, he had to relock it so that we could stay safe, but he didn't get the chance.

 

Directly addressing Beige's family, Friend said "Thank you for bringing and having this amazing person in life and giving him the power to be stronger than I could have ever been."

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200220844.html

Edited February 15, 2018 by Mockingbird

[ncoday]

For those who say "guns" are to blame for this tragedy, then please explain to me how I am still alive even though I have a loaded handgun not more than 18 inches away from me on the table?

 

Simple, a human being has to pick it up and pull the trigger. Thus, it is the person that is to blame.

 

The sum of the liberal gun control argument is exemplified in this example, a drunk driver in a sports car rams a van carrying children to a sporting event, killing everyone. They argue that all sports cars with more than 200HP should be banned and if you try to modify it to have more than 200HP, you should go to prison for 5-10 years.

 

Here is a real-life example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bathurst_Boys_in_Red_accident

[300z]

3 hours ago, shockz said:

Don't forget that talking about it right now is "too soon".

 

If nothing changed after Sandy Hook, then this won't do anything all. I mean, the crazies think Sandy Hook was a false flag. There's no hope for any meaningful discussion.  

When Sandy Hook happened I remember my niece had missed going to soccer practice nearby because she was sick that day, one of her friends from down the street was one of the victims. To think that events like this continue to happen without any changes is just insane!

I know this a poor example but around 4.5 years ago I moved to Brazil, when it comes to violence Brazil is crazy, according to government numbers in 2016 Brazil had nearly 59k violent deaths/homicides (to put it into perspective Syria had under 15k victims during the same period, and Syria is at war) and yet despite all this here in Brazil this type of mass shooting is something that hardly ever happens while this has been what, the 8th event in the US just this year?. So yeah I think it's both a gun culture issue and a violence culture too, the amount of violence displayed on American movies is absurd compared to foreign movies, put it all together and people just become numbed over time.

[FloatingFatMan]

11 minutes ago, ncoday said:

For those who say "guns" are to blame for this tragedy, then please explain to me how I am still alive even though I have a loaded handgun not more than 18 inches away from me on the table?

 

Simple, a human being has to pick it up and pull the trigger. Thus, it is the person that is to blame.

 

The sum of the liberal gun control argument is exemplified in this example, a drunk driver in a sports car rams a van carrying children to a sporting event, killing everyone. They argue that all sports cars with more than 200HP should be banned and if you try to modify it to have more than 200HP, you should go to prison for 5-10 years.

*sigh* I really wish you folks would stop using the stupid car analogies to excuse your love of guns.

 

A gun is designed to kill things.

A car is designed to transport people and property from one place to another.

 

The two are not analogous in any way, shape or form.

 

If you want to own a gun, knock yourself out.

[Mockingbird]

17 minutes ago, ncoday said:

For those who say "guns" are to blame for this tragedy, then please explain to me how I am still alive even though I have a loaded handgun not more than 18 inches away from me on the table?

 

Simple, a human being has to pick it up and pull the trigger. Thus, it is the person that is to blame.

 

The sum of the liberal gun control argument is exemplified in this example, a drunk driver in a sports car rams a van carrying children to a sporting event, killing everyone. They argue that all sports cars with more than 200HP should be banned and if you try to modify it to have more than 200HP, you should go to prison for 5-10 years.

 

Here is a real-life example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bathurst_Boys_in_Red_accident

Always trying to change the topic...

 

The perpetrator use an AR-15 because is easily obtained and great for inflicting mass casualties. 

 

If he could inflict more casualties using a car, he would have used that instead.

[ncoday]

11 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

*sigh* I really wish you folks would stop using the stupid car analogies to excuse your love of guns.

 

A gun is designed to kill things.

A car is designed to transport people and property from one place to another.

 

The two are not analogous in any way, shape or form.

 

If you want to own a gun, knock yourself out.

**sigh** I really wish you folks would stop trying to blame the object and anyone else who owns one responsibly. 

 

Answer me this then, why do we protect our politicians with guns, even at the state & county levels, but not the children?

[FloatingFatMan]

Just now, ncoday said:

**sigh** I really wish you folks would stop trying to blame the object and anyone else who owns one responsibly. 

 

Answer me this then, why do we protect our politicians with guns, even at the state & county levels, but not the children?

1. I have not blamed the object. I blame the person wielding said object, and the society which loves owning said object and does nothing to prevent the mentally ill from getting hold of them.

2. Maybe you people love your politicians more than your kids?