At least 17 dead in Florida school shooting, law enforcement says

[shockz]

Just now, techbeck said:

 

17 minutes ago, techbeck said:

  Treating the symptoms without developing a cure will never work.  Just prolongs the inevitable.

We should probably look into why trump removed regulations regarding the mental health of an individual buying a gun... seems a good place to start 

[techbeck]

Just watched a vid that Cruz posted back in September on youtube saying he wanted to be a school shooter.  FBI investigated but I guess they didnt do or find any reason for concern.

8 minutes ago, shockz said:

We should probably look into why trump removed regulations regarding the mental health of an individual buying a gun... seems a good place to start 

This was a problem before and for a while.  Trump's actions have little, f nothing, to do with what happened here.  And banning guns from individuals with mental health issues does nothing to stop those who obtain them illegally.  Which a lot, if not most, of these shootings, weapons were obtained that way.  Also, it is obvious he mental heath issues were ignored.  And even if the law was still in place, if he had no record of mental health issues (offical, not hearsay), wouldnt have stopped him from doing what he did.

Edited February 15, 2018 by techbeck

[+Warwagon MVC]

18 minutes ago, Son_Of_Dad said:

Seems around the 20-25th anniversary of people saying don't discipline your kids they'll just sort themselves out.

Around the time they turned spanking into a form of child abuse.

[DocM]

6 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Obviously.   Just from the kids comments, the guy seemed like a scary person and lots were nervous because of him.  And apparently, he had a lot of weapons.  Why any parent would let an obviously trouble person own that many weapons...I have no idea.

He was 19, old enough to legally purchase long arms. AIUI he was living with friends and adopted. Troubled out of the gate.

[shockz]

11 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Just watched a vid that Cruz posted back in September on youtube saying he wanted to be a school shooter.  FBI investigated but I guess they didnt do or find any reason for concern.

This was a problem before and for a while.  Trump's actions have little, f nothing, to do with what happened here.  And banning guns from individuals with mental health issues does nothing to stop those who obtain them illegally.  Which a lot, if not most, of these shootings, weapons were obtained that way.

Wrong. And highly subjective rebuttal. You two were literally talking about mental health ramifications and then you have the current administration rolling back, not improving mental health regulations. Get a clue.

 

Most of these shooters either obtain these weapons from a close friend or family member, or legally purchase them. They aren’t breaking into places or ripping them off people. There is plenty room for legislation in that’s arena. The whole criminals don’t follow laws things is a cop out, because actual regulations for gun owners to keep their items in check and safe would go along way, along with harsh fines, penalties and jail time for loaning, misplacing or not securing a weapon that was used in a crime. That would curb all sorts of issues. 

[techbeck]

2 minutes ago, DocM said:

He was 19, old enough to legally purchase long arms. AIUI he was living with friends and adopted. Troubled out of the gate.

Oh, I know.  And people ignored the signs.  And if accurate, FBI investigated and found nothing months ago.

[DocM]

11 minutes ago, shockz said:

We should probably look into why trump removed regulations regarding the mental health of an individual buying a gun... seems a good place to start 

Not really because those Obama regulations were poorly written, discriminating against people who were not mentally ill and other issues. Even ACLU wanted them repealed. 

 

https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair

[techbeck]

3 minutes ago, shockz said:

 

 

Most of these shooters either obtain these weapons from a close friend or family member, or legally purchase them.

And if they are taking the weapons without approval, then it is illegal and stealing.
 

Quote

 

 Get a clue.

 

 

If you  are going to be rude, then convo over.

[DocM]

1 minute ago, techbeck said:

Oh, I know.  And people ignored the signs.  And if accurate, FBI investigated and found nothing months ago.

Under current law they had no course of action. See 1970's -v1980's

[shockz]

2 minutes ago, techbeck said:

And if they are taking the weapons without approval, then it is illegal and stealing.

Except once again, most guns aren’t stolen, and are knowingly loaned out via friends or family. Not to mention if taken from a family safe or storage area, the owner should be investigated for not properly securing it.

[techbeck]

8 minutes ago, warwagon said:

Around the time they turned spanking into a form of child abuse.

Dont get me started on that.   People seem so entrenched in other people's business that now you must compromise and talk to your kids.  Any actions, even yelling, can be considered a form of abuse.    I was yelled out, I was spanked.  Was in unpleasant?  Sure, but I learned respect and how to act like an adult/human.

[techbeck]

7 minutes ago, shockz said:

Except once again, most loaned out guns aren’t stolen, and are knowingly loaned out via friends or family.

again?  You didnt say "loaned" in the previous reply.  You said obtained from family members.   Obtained could me a lot of things.  I would also argue whether or not these weapons were "loaned" out.  I have weapons and no way in hell I would loan them to anyone.

Quote

Most of these shooters either obtain these weapons from a close friend or family member, or legally purchase them.

 

And my point still stands.   Dont just treat the symptoms, look for a develop a cure.   Banning something will just make people want it more and if the drug war is any indication of things, then its proof that if someone wants something bad enough, they will get it.  And drugs kill more than these shoots every year.  Whether you be the person doing the drugs, or the unlucky soul who suffered the consequences of someone using them.

8 minutes ago, DocM said:

Under current law they had no course of action. See 1970's -v1980's

No, but they could have kept an eye on him.   Seems like threats against others, like the president, is highly investigated while things like this are swept under the rug.

[shockz]

14 minutes ago, techbeck said:

again?  You didnt say "loaned" in the previous reply.  You said obtained from family members.   Obtained could me a lot of things.  I would also argue whether or not these weapons were "loaned" out.  I have weapons and no way in hell I would loan them to anyone.

 

And my point still stands.   Dont just treat the symptoms, look for a develop a cure.   Banning something will just make people want it more and if the drug war is any indication of things, then its proof that if someone wants something bad enough, they will get it.  And drugs kill more than these shoots every year.  Whether you be the person doing the drugs, or the unlucky soul who suffered the consequences of someone using them.

No, but they could have kept an eye on him.   Seems like threats against others, like the president, is highly investigated while things like this are swept under the rug.

There is absolutely zero reason why once should have this type of weapon available to them outside police or military. None. 

 

Treat the symptoms? Stop letting nutjobs have access to assault weapons. Problem solved. Even better, prevent the sale of these weapons to anyone else outside military and police. I seriously doubt our founding fathers ever envisioned guns that can take out 20 kids in a matter of minutes in the hands of ordinary citizens, let alone having unrestricted and undocumented sales occur of said weapons.

 

Impose mandatory health checks that are comprehensive and background checks, no more nonsense about how they were on a watch list and didn't want to tip them off etc etc etc. Felon? Sorry, no gun (which I think is already a law?). Just like voting. Abusive history? Sorry, no gun. Violent convictions? Stalking, intimidation, or other weird behaviors? Sorry, no gun. Forever. Not without proven mental health rehab and even then debatable.

Edited February 15, 2018 by shockz

[ncoday]

6 minutes ago, techbeck said:

again?  You didnt say "loaned" in the previous reply.  You said obtained from family members.   Obtained could me a lot of things.  I would also argue whether or not these weapons were "loaned" out.  I have weapons and no way in hell I would loan them to anyone.

 

And my point still stands.   Dont just treat the symptoms, look for a develop a cure.   Banning something will just make people want it more and if the drug war is any indication of things, then its proof that if someone wants something bad enough, they will get it.  And drugs kill more than these shoots every year.  Whether you be the person doing the drugs, or the unlucky soul who suffered the consequences of someone using them.

No, but they could have kept an eye on him.   Seems like threats against others, like the president, is highly investigated while things like this are swept under the rug.

I am not excusing the lack of action by the FBI, but we need to keep this in perspective. I could not possibly estimate how many 1000's of tips they get in a year. They don't have the resources to follow and monitor everyone. Making a comment on a video is not illegal.

 

[techbeck]

5 minutes ago, shockz said:

Treat the symptoms? Stop letting nutjobs have access to assault weapons. Problem solved. Even better, prevent the sale of these weapons to anyone else outside military and police.

Subjective....banning things does not stop people from getting them.  In  a lot of cases, it encourages them to get them.   Look at the war on drugs...war was lost before it started and drug problems are not getting any better.  Look at the opioid issues in the US.  Also look at the number of lives drugs have cost people.  Then there is the Mexico borer and everyone should know how messed up that is.

 

[shockz]

Just now, techbeck said:

Subjective....banning things does not stop people from getting them.  In fact, it encourages them to get them.   Look at the war on drugs...war was lost before it started and drug problems are not getting any better.  Look at the opioid issues in the US.

 

Apples, Oranges. It's a lot easier to grow a plant or cook up some drugs than it is to create an assault weapon from scratch if banned from sales/manufacturing outside military/defense.

[techbeck]

10 minutes ago, shockz said:

Apples, Oranges. It's a lot easier to grow a plant or cook up some drugs than it is to create an assault weapon from scratch if banned from sales/manufacturing outside military/defense.

Was an accurate example of how people will get things.  You can ban something in one country, and people will look to another to get it.  I agree there needs to be changes, as I have said several times on this site, but again...banning something without IDing and solving the cause is not going to change much, if anything.  People like to ignore the mental issues and do not want to take the time, effort, and money needed to find the cause.  It is easier to ban something than to fully understand the situation.

 

And now I am beating a dead horse here and repeating myself.  I have made my point.

 

Edit:  And sorry, no problem solved by banning.  All you are doing is masking the underlying issue and ignoring it.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

 

20 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

Gun culture and Republicans' unwillingness to do anything beside offering useless prayers for the dead.

The gun culture had already existed before Warwagon went to school.

 

 

[techbeck]

Just now, Mirumir said:

 

The gun culture had already existed before Warwagon went to school.

 

 

Before me to.  I don't remember all these shootings growing up though.  Something has changed and it is not the access to weapons.

[techbeck]

24 minutes ago, ncoday said:

I am not excusing the lack of action by the FBI, but we need to keep this in perspective. I could not possibly estimate how many 1000's of tips they get in a year. They don't have the resources to follow and monitor everyone. Making a comment on a video is not illegal.

 

Yea, but looking back and comments from people about Cruz....he should have been red flagged.  And acts against a large group of people should be taken seriously.

 

Also, banning and doing nothing else is the lazy incompetent way of dealing with something.   And does not solve a problem, just may reduce the possibility of it happening. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by techbeck

[shockz]

10 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Was an accurate example of how people will get things.  You can ban something in one country, and people will look to another to get it.  I agree there needs to be changes, as I have said several times on this site, but again...banning something without IDing and solving the cause is not going to change much, if anything.  People like to ignore the mental issues and do not want to take the time, effort, and money needed to find the cause.  It is easier to ban something than to fully understand the situation.

 

And now I am beating a dead horse here and repeating myself.  I have made my point.

 

Edit:  And sorry, no problem solved by banning.  All you are doing is masking the underlying issue and ignoring it.

Except it wasn't, it was an accurate view point on how people get drugs. Not guns.

 

That's just such a ridiculous viewpoint in regards to how you think banning won't solve anything. Banning something reduces it's availability, not to mention increases prices on remaining inventory or creation of said inventory, substantially, especially in these types of scenarios. These kids wouldn't have the funds to obtain such weaponry, not to mention unless their family is involved in a black market, wouldn't just having them lying around in mom and dad's closet. Banning these weapons would dramatically reduce the access kids/students have to obtaining said weapons.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

 

 

Just look at his empty snake-like eyes. 

 

Even if we agree that kids these day lack discipline, what needs to be going on in someone's mind so that they make a decision to go on a shooting spree while living in a country with a death penalty?

 

It's totally crazy.

 

And many shooters commit suicide at the scene.

 

 

[techbeck]

1 minute ago, Mirumir said:

 

Just look at his empty snake-like eyes. 

 

 

Wouldnt go by looks alone.  I hate getting my pic taken and always have a blank stare into the camera.

[Circaflex]

8 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

while living in a country with a death penalty?

This is incorrect. Not all states have the death penalty, Florida yes, country no.

[Nogib]

21 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

Gun culture and Republicans' unwillingness to do anything beside offering useless prayers for the dead.

Funny, I didn't see the Democrats do anything when they controlled the house, senate, and oval office a few years back.

 

Stop pretending this is a partisan issue.  No politician wants to touch it because it would be political suicide.