Server Advice

[sc302 Veteran]

7 minutes ago, DevTech said:

Weeds?

 

 

 

 

exactly.  

Quote

Now he actually wants "Mom & Pop File Server with a FileMaker DB gravy on the side"

 

As soon as he mentioned that, you should have realized anything you state will be over his head and into the weeds.....might as well have tried to explain astrophysics to a 2 year old.  No offense to anyone, filemaker really should be updated and pushed to the cloud if possible.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

This thread is hilarious! We started by talking about a requirement to support a 5 employee business, and now we are talking about Kubernetes.

 

Even a $7K server is too much for a business of that size.  Build in resilience if you need it.  For each application, ask how long you can wait before you start to suffer because it is broken.  Build resilience to make sure you never end up in that situation, but be realistic and don't build resilience for stuff that will affect you but won't kill you if it is temporarily unavailable.

Buy a storage device to back data up onto.  Back up to the cloud as well for offsite in case flood/fire/act of god destroys your on-site device.

 

You could easily do this for well less thank $7K.  You certainly don't need Kubernetes, regardless of how much of a hard-on it gives to some nerds.

[patseguin Global Moderator]

5 minutes ago, DevTech said:

I'm trying to understand your objectives in terms of how they translate into a technical requirement.

 

#1 - you don't really need to upgrade for any performance reason

 

#2 - so, you need to upgrade, yet instead of lookiing at 2019, you config a pumped up 2008 type system that improves on nothing at all (that you need) for this effort

 

#3 - the only thing that could help you in a way your needs might get a shot in the arm is the STORAGE which is why I focus on it!

 

#4 - i will check and see what Dell has available

I think #2 is kind of where you are losing me. I just wanted a new box with more modern hardware to last me a good long time and run the Windows based apps that I need on it. I am only even considering doing anything with the server because our business software was updated to a version of Filemaker Server that requires a 64-bit OS.

 

Buying 3 servers or that other K-stuff you were talking about seems like using a Falcon Heavy to get to the grocery store down the street. As computer savvy as I thought I was, almost everything server-wise that you're talking about may as well be Greek. Maybe it's my age, lol.

 

I was actually even wondering about buying Windows Server 2019 and installing it on my current hardware.

 

It's not like I'm not willing to spend the $7,500. I'm just getting so confused at a lot of the stuff that you're suggesting. I just don't want to be getting into something that's designed for huge companies when I just need something small and simple.

 

I do immensely appreciate all the time and effort you're putting in helping me.

4 minutes ago, sc302 said:

exactly.  

 

As soon as he mentioned that, you should have realized anything you state will be over his head and into the weeds.....might as well have tried to explain astrophysics to a 2 year old.  No offense to anyone, filemaker really should be updated.

No offense taken. That's exactly how it feels. My Dad used to get so angry with me because I'd explain computer stuff to him that was over his head. Now I know how it feels.

 

So how do small business owners with no knowledge of servers set up something simple but good enough to handle their needs?

[patseguin Global Moderator]

3 minutes ago, Fahim S. said:

This thread is hilarious! We started by talking about a requirement to support a 5 employee business, and now we are talking about Kubernetes.

 

Even a $7K server is too much for a business of that size.  Build in resilience if you need it.  For each application, ask how long you can wait before you start to suffer because it is broken.  Build resilience to make sure you never end up in that situation, but be realistic and don't build resilience for stuff that will affect you but won't kill you if it is temporarily unavailable.

Buy a storage device to back data up onto.  Back up to the cloud as well for offsite in case flood/fire/act of god destroys your on-site device.

 

You could easily do this for well less thank $7K.  You certainly don't need Kubernetes, regardless of how much of a hard-on it gives to some nerds.

Yeah I think you are kind of hitting it on the head. I build gaming computers but when it comes to servers, I'm like a 2 year old. All that I feel I need is an updated server with modern processor(s) and storage with enough redundancy in case of failures. I'd almost think of just building one myself and then buying Server 2019 separately.

[ANON86364]

Not sure if it would be helpful here. Lots of info being flung around... I personally prefer building my own servers over using Dells. I've been building SuperMicro servers for a long while. Just built two for two clients based on 7048R-C1RT. They are splendid machines. All the goodies included. I even have one configured to pass-through a Quadro GPU to a RDSH VM - using Hyper-V 2019 mind you.

[sc302 Veteran]

8 minutes ago, patseguin said:

I think #2 is kind of where you are losing me. I just wanted a new box with more modern hardware to last me a good long time and run the Windows based apps that I need on it. I am only even considering doing anything with the server because our business software was updated to a version of Filemaker Server that requires a 64-bit OS.

 

Buying 3 servers or that other K-stuff you were talking about seems like using a Falcon Heavy to get to the grocery store down the street. As computer savvy as I thought I was, almost everything server-wise that you're talking about may as well be Greek. Maybe it's my age, lol.

 

I was actually even wondering about buying Windows Server 2019 and installing it on my current hardware.

 

It's not like I'm not willing to spend the $7,500. I'm just getting so confused at a lot of the stuff that you're suggesting. I just don't want to be getting into something that's designed for huge companies when I just need something small and simple.

 

I do immensely appreciate all the time and effort you're putting in helping me.

I wouldn't worry too much about it then.  Buy a server within budget, replace your existing if it is over 5 years old, and be done with it.  Make sure you have the storage required and I would say 16GB of memory (don't sell yourself shorter than that).  

 

Everything else is not what you need at the moment.  

 

 

4 minutes ago, Bryan R. said:

Not sure if it would be helpful here. Lots of info being flung around... I personally prefer building my own servers over using Dells. I've been building SuperMicro servers for a long while. Just built two for two clients based on 7048R-C1RT. They are splendid machines. All the goodies included. I even have one configured to pass-through a Quadro GPU to a RDSH server - using Hyper-V 2019 mind you.

Dells Business critical 4 hour turn around really kicks super micro's replace whatever in whenever's times ass.  If you don't need it, build supermicro's all day long.  If you lose more money than the server is worth within a few hours, you probably want to stick with that 4 hour turnaround time...it could be 10pm or 2 am, they deliver.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

with the very greatest respect, you could probably run your business on an i7 Intel NUC, 32GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, with a 128GB system NVMe SSD, and a 1TB SATA SSD for storage.

Pair that with a decent 4 bay Synology NAS stuffed with 4TB discs, and a subscription to a reasonable cloud backup solution (choose your poison).

 

I haven't priced it up, but I think that is about $2K?

Seriously... based on what I have read, you genuinely don't need more.

 

Buy a second NUC, and put it into a cupboard so you can restore onto it should the hardware in the first one fail - or not, you can practically get the parts for a new computer delivered on Amazon Prime in a day or so.  The question, is how badly will your business suffer if you lose your software (not the data) for a day?

[DevTech]

Power Edge 640 

- $4000 no O/S

- still looking for M.2 based mobo

- has empty CPU socket for expansion

 

 

PowerEdge T640 Tower Server Summary

List Price$6,482.00

Total Savings$2,396.36

Dell Price$4,085.64

 

OptionSelectionSKU / Product CodeQuantity

Base

PowerEdge T640 Server[210-AMBC]0

Trusted Platform Module

No Trusted Platform Module[461-AADZ] / NTPM1

Chassis

Chassis with up to 8" x 3.5 SAS/SATA Hard Drives, Tower Configuration[321-BCXD] / 51064581

Processor

Intel® Xeon® Silver 4114 2.2G, 10C/20T, 9.6GT/s, 14M Cache, Turbo, HT (85W) DDR4-2400[338-BLUS] / 51034021

Additional Processor

No Additional Processor[374-BBBX] / 1P1

Processor Thermal Configuration

Standard HS for Less = 150W[412-AAJW] / 51049871

Memory DIMM Type and Speed

2666MT/s RDIMMs[370-ADNU] / 50992781

Memory Configuration Type

Performance Optimized[370-AAIP] / PEOPT1

Memoryi

32GB RDIMM, 2666MT/s, Dual Rank[370-ADNF] / 50988901

RAID

C5, RAID 10 for HDDs or SSDs in pairs (Matching Type/Speed/Capacity)[780-BCDQ] / 50988741

RAID/Internal Storage Controllers

PERC H330 RAID Controller[405-AAMT] / 50995691

Hard Drive

480GB SSD SATA Mix Use 6Gbps 512 2.5in Hot-plug AG Drive,3.5in HYB CARR, 3 DWPD, 2628 TBW[400-AZVL] / GABDSK14

Boot Optimized Storage Cards

BOSS controller card + with 2 M.2 Sticks 240G (RAID 1),FH[403-BBPT] / 51036191

Operating System

No Operating System[619-ABVR] / NOOS1

OS Media Kits

No Media Required[421-5736] / NOMED1

Embedded Systems Management

iDRAC9, Express[385-BBKS] / 50995571

Group Manager

iDRAC Group Manager, Disabled[379-BCQY] / 51009261

Password

iDRAC,Factory Generated Password[379-BCSF] / 51013431

Removable Storage

None1

Additional Network Cards

On-Board Dual-Port 10GbE LOM[542-BBCT] / G0LHQ4X1

IDSDM and VFlash Card Reader

None1

Internal SD Module

None1

Internal Optical Drive

No Internal Optical Drive for x8/x18/x16 chassis[429-ABDL] / 51075181

Fans

No Additional Mid Fan for T640[384-BBSO] / 51076881

Power Supply

Single, Hot-plug Power Supply (1+0), 495W[450-ADWP] / 495NR1

[sc302 Veteran]

you don't need m2 to run applications.  you aren't going to find one on a server.  m2 is for pc builds.

[DevTech]

2 minutes ago, Fahim S. said:

with the very greatest respect, you could probably run your business on an i7 Intel NUC, 32GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, with a 128GB system NVMe SSD, and a 1TB SATA SSD for storage.

Pair that with a decent 4 bay Synology NAS stuffed with 4TB discs, and a subscription to a reasonable cloud backup solution (choose your poison).

 

I haven't priced it up, but I think that is about $2K?

Seriously... based on what I have read, you genuinely don't need more.

I already said he could use any modern (high end) laptop!

 

But that is not the point here...

 

Just now, sc302 said:

you don't need m2 to run applications.  you aren't going to find one on a server.  m2 is for pc builds.

Oh no... it just looks different - usually a card with M.2 sockets. or flash integrated on the card but PCIe lanes? Hell YES...

 

[+Fahim S. MVC]

Just now, DevTech said:

I already said he could use any modern (high end) laptop!

 

But that is not the point here...

 

sorry, must have missed the memo.

Is it not the point to give him an appropriate and cost effective solution to his problem?

[xendrome]

1 minute ago, DevTech said:

I already said he could use any modern (high end) laptop!

 

But that is not the point here...

 

Business is important, Having a decent Dell server with their enterprise warranty is important and a factor in the cost, but when down-time matters for a business it's worth it. Most of the stuff you have suggested or mentioned muddys the water or is irrelevant to this type of small business setup.

 

My advice to the OP is, listen to sc302 here - 

 and ignore all of your advice.

[DevTech]

18 minutes ago, patseguin said:

So how do small business owners with no knowledge of servers set up something simple but good enough to handle their needs?

You are doing it right by asking.

 

It would be nuts for me NOT to mention the correct approach - just irresponsible IMO. So, now that's done, just ignore that

 

Once that is out of way we focus on the Goldilocks "Just right for you"

 

[xendrome]

2 minutes ago, DevTech said:

You are doing it right by asking.

 

It would be nuts for me NOT to mention the correct approach - just irresponsible IMO. So, now that's done, just ignore that

 

Once that is out of way we focus on the Goldilocks "Just right for you"

 

Translation "Let me spout off a buncha BS that isn't right for you as I do in every thread, then we'll worry about actually helping you in your specific situation"

[DevTech]

4 minutes ago, Fahim S. said:

sorry, must have missed the memo.

Is it not the point to give him an appropriate and cost effective solution to his problem?

He is getting lots of very different suggestions from different perspectives and ALL of them are GOOD in some context.

 

Without sitting down with him in a room for a couple of hours and doing a COMPLETE NEEDS ASSESSMENT, the "appropriate solutions" here are a bunch of opinionated guessing  based on how everyone sees server side provisioning...

 

Nothing wrong with that since unlike many threads where nobody takes an interest, he is getting a wealth of info to poke through...

 

 

 

1 minute ago, xendrome said:

Translation "Let me spout off a buncha BS that isn't right for you as I do in every thread, then we'll worry about actually helping you in your specific situation"

Or you think, like most people that your opinions are the right ones.

 

I do my due dilligence and then I focus in - standard drill-down - if you don't like good analysis, don't read it...

 

[DevTech]

32 minutes ago, Fahim S. said:

You certainly don't need Kubernetes, regardless of how much of a hard-on it gives to some nerds

You need to go back to the start of thread where he was getting good advice based on the appearance of an enterprise server installation where everyone was correctly suggesting multiple servers instead of a single Giant Monolithic server.

 

And all enterprise configs have to consider expansion and growth and in 2019, not to mention Kubernetes in that context is simply not responsible.

 

As the tread progressed it turns out this was NOT an enterprise scenario and your NUC proposal is a s good as any.

 

[DevTech]

22 minutes ago, sc302 said:

you don't need m2 to run applications.  you aren't going to find one on a server.  m2 is for pc builds.

Also, every single config he has received from the Dell server guys has had a Dual M.2 provisioned.

 

[sc302 Veteran]

8 minutes ago, DevTech said:

Also, every single config he has received from the Dell server guys has had a Dual M.2 provisioned.

 

that is interesting....lets take a look at his latest config...

 

Quote

CardsBOSS controller card 

yep add on card....not built onto the motherboard.

 

https://i.dell.com/sites/doccontent/shared-content/data-sheets/en/Documents/Dell-PowerEdge-Boot-Optimized-Storage-Solution.pdf

 

If the server doesn't have to reboot all that often or open applications all that often, m2 is really moot.  A really unneeded expense.  It is going to take forever to post through the life cycle controller (I hate that thing).

 

[DevTech]

34 minutes ago, patseguin said:

I'd almost think of just building one myself and then buying Server 2019 separately.

The previously mentioned SuperMicro brand has dual CPU LGA 3647 socket mobos, but it is overkill.

 

Your idea of upgrading your current O/S might also be simple provided that that hardware meets system requirements.

 

But @sc302has correctly pointed out the value of rapid on-site service from Dell...

 

 

[DevTech]

3 minutes ago, sc302 said:

that is interesting....lets take a look at his latest config...

 

yep add on card.

 

https://i.dell.com/sites/doccontent/shared-content/data-sheets/en/Documents/Dell-PowerEdge-Boot-Optimized-Storage-Solution.pdf

 

Are you feeling weirdly argumentative? You said M.2 is not a server thing. I was just updating your awareness.

 

It's just a thing now everywhere. And if Dell supplies some junk NVMe it still has to compete with good old consumer Samsung 970 Pro on speed and reliability for which only Enterprise SLC comes to mind...

 

[sc302 Veteran]

thanks for making me aware...I deal with more enterprise level equipment....more dealing with flash storage...the servers boot off of SD drives, not spinning disk or ssds.  

 

but I wouldn't fight too hard for the ssd boot option on a server, just being honest here, not argumentative.  ssd performance for me is on pc...I don't see a need for it on a server esp during boot...servers aren't going down that often to require it (up 24x7) and ui interaction is limited unless you need to check the service or device managers.  Wasted money if you ask me.

 

 

[DevTech]

15 minutes ago, sc302 said:

thanks for making me aware...I deal with more enterprise level equipment....more dealing with flash storage...the servers boot off of SD drives, not spinning disk or ssds.  

 

but I wouldn't fight too hard for the ssd boot option on a server, just being honest here, not argumentative.  ssd performance for me is on pc...I don't see a need for it on a server esp during boot...servers aren't going down that often to require it (up 24x7) and ui interaction is limited unless you need to check the service or device managers.  Wasted money if you ask me.

 

 

Ah really agree with you - I thought ordering from those Dell configs was a mostly "hard requirement" and was trying to massage the config so the RAID-1 M.2 could be for the DB storage and then he could boot off of any old SATA SSD.

 

[DevTech]

1 hour ago, patseguin said:

Yeah I think you are kind of hitting it on the head. I build gaming computers but when it comes to servers, I'm like a 2 year old. All that I feel I need is an updated server with modern processor(s) and storage with enough redundancy in case of failures. I'd almost think of just building one myself and then buying Server 2019 separately.

 

1 hour ago, Bryan R. said:

Not sure if it would be helpful here. Lots of info being flung around... I personally prefer building my own servers over using Dells. I've been building SuperMicro servers for a long while. Just built two for two clients based on 7048R-C1RT. They are splendid machines. All the goodies included. I even have one configured to pass-through a Quadro GPU to a RDSH VM - using Hyper-V 2019 mind you.

https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/C620/X11DPH-TQ.cfm

 

Supermicro mobo with TWO LGA 3647 CPU sockets AND TWO M.2 NVMe sockets on board

 

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

8 minutes ago, DevTech said:

 

https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/C620/X11DPH-TQ.cfm

 

Supermicro mobo with TWO LGA 3647 CPU sockets AND TWO M.2 NVMe sockets on board

 

That a bad thing?

[DevTech]

50 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

That a bad thing?

 

59 minutes ago, DevTech said:

 

https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/C620/X11DPH-TQ.cfm

 

Supermicro mobo with TWO LGA 3647 CPU sockets AND TWO M.2 NVMe sockets on board

 

Oh, no no no...

 

One of the options the OP is considering is building his own "pocket rocket"

 

So far while poking around in Dell's server site I have not found anything as nice as this SuperMicro mobo...

 

So,

 

1. This mobo

2. Any LGA 3647 CPU and a bit above the bottom end of that crowd enables 6 Way RAM

3. Either dual channel RAM or 6 channel RAM, the board takes either type. i.e use the black sockets OR the blue sockets.

4. Plug in TWO Samsung 970 Pro 4 TB NVMe drives into the mobo

5. Attach a server style PSU (Zippy brand is possibly the best)

6. screw onto a piece of plywood for a talking piece in your corporate entrance since you need ZERO drives or anything else or stuff in some boring server style case

7. DONE!

 

8. For BONUS SERVER POINTS locate some REALLY LOUD SCREAMING FANS and place everywhere!