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DevTech    1,517

It just did not make sense that today's single most useful piece of tech to perk up your computer is missing from the Server. As Spock would say, "That is not logical"

 

So what a feeling to uncover some of the mystery of NVMe on the Server. The Logical part is that it is a solidly implemented technology. The illogical part is that this logical, useful advance in engineering is mostly hidden on the website and to clueless sales reps.

 

Picture the Maytag Repairman from those old commercials, a lonely creature sitting all by himself in some back room. Today, there is a Dell Engineer or a whole team of engineers scratching their heads with that same forlorn puzzled expression.

 

They created modern Hot Swap Plug in Modules with banks of 10 or 12 or 24 Slots for pluggable NVMe Flash Drives, perhaps one of the most significant server performance boosts in a decade! And then who knows about it?

 

The Dell Sales Reps are still flogging 15,000 RPM and 10,000 RPM ancient spinning platters of jet engine whine that perform like walking through a wet stinking hot bug infested swamp compared to NVMe.

 

Maybe those reps are listening to 1980's music on their iPods when Enterprise Platters were 30" and 24" and 15K spinners were the predictions of the future kings of storage. But "to everything there is a season" and those noisy monstrosities of data must join the optical disk in obscurity... They came, They ruled the Enterprise for a while, and now they must go.

 

 

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DaveLegg    1,000
2 hours ago, DevTech said:

The Dell Sales Reps are still flogging 15,000 RPM and 10,000 RPM ancient spinning platters of jet engine whine that perform like walking through a wet stinking hot bug infested swamp compared to NVMe.

 

They may be slow compared to NVMe, but they're perfectly adequate for the vast majority of Dell's customers. Not everyone needs the absolute best IO performance. Neowin's web servers run on spinning disks, and IO is not a bottle neck. The same can probably be said for the majority of web servers. Our database servers run on standard SSDs, and not NVMe drives, again, IO is not an issue.

 

Not everyone in the world is a huge enterprise needing to squeeze every last drop of performance out of their hardware

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sc302    1,735
Just now, DaveLegg said:

They may be slow compared to NVMe, but they're perfectly adequate for the vast majority of Dell's customers. Not everyone needs the absolute best IO performance. Neowin's web servers run on spinning disks, and IO is not a bottle neck. The same can probably be said for the majority of web servers. Our database servers run on standard SSDs, and not NVMe drives, again, IO is not an issue.

 

Not everyone in the world is a huge enterprise needing to squeeze every last drop of performance out of their hardware

Thank you.   

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DevTech    1,517
17 minutes ago, DaveLegg said:

They may be slow compared to NVMe, but they're perfectly adequate for the vast majority of Dell's customers. Not everyone needs the absolute best IO performance. Neowin's web servers run on spinning disks, and IO is not a bottle neck. The same can probably be said for the majority of web servers. Our database servers run on standard SSDs, and not NVMe drives, again, IO is not an issue.

 

Not everyone in the world is a huge enterprise needing to squeeze every last drop of performance out of their hardware

Oh good grief! It is a question of "value" and direction!

 

By that argument you could hook a bunch of floppy drives to an array of Commodore-64s and with sufficiently large cluster size, get the perf you need.

 

There is right, and wrong, and then there is just a little bit slime-ooze-in-the-swampness...

 

Dell is my favorite hardware manufacturer from Laptops to Desktops to Servers but that doesn't mean I won't point out some absolutely ridiculous anomalies even if Lenovo and HP are happy to play along.

 

Flogging warehouse inventory junk to customers sucks even if the customer is bamboozled into thinking its a good deal. Hey that's Apple's business model. So I don't buy Apple stuff... But Dell does right by their consumer offerings, yet fails to take any leadership position on the business side. The fact that Dell designed the right stuff and in the right way and have a great system of Hot Swap NVMe plug-ins gives me confidence that they will "right this ship" once they clear enough junk from inventory.

 

Consumers just need one or two M.2 sockets, where business and enterprise should actually be at the forefront as the driving force for 8-bay NVMe plug-ins and 10-bay and 24-bay etc with the enormous number of PCIe lanes that represents. That's a business thing, not a consumer thing. And Dell is there. They've designed it. They sell it. It's just that right now there is a bit of green slime oozing down the side of the industry here...

 

I have just gone through the configuration of way too many servers in the last 24 hours! And outside the ultra-high end it just doesn't matter which model you start with, low end in the line or high end - by the time they finish asking you to bend over and take it on the price gouging add-ons, there is a negligible difference between a 340 and a 640 for example. RAM and Storage are profit centers and they are shoving down your throat whatever they can source at low cost and convince you with "Bizz BS Herd Mentality" to accept as "Standard Business"

 

I can't wait to see how long this bizarre "group-think" lasts until everyone looks around and sheepishly starts ordering modern stuff and then a tipping point happens... Then they will say "That 24 bay NVMe Hot plug hardware I was laughing at as a consumer thing because my buddies were all ordering those marvelous 15,000 rpm metal beauties? Yeah forget that. That quarterly report analysis that took three days to run and always glitched in the end? Done in an hour. Got my weekends back!"

 

It's coming. You are NOT going to see these rickety ancient spinning gizmos much longer as primary storage... 5400 rpm 14 Terabyte plus is where platters belong...

 

I'm just sad that people I know here at Neowin will be disadvantaged by this situation until it changes.

 

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Mindovermaster    2,179
Posted (edited)

I'm sorry, @DevTech, but you are talking about a big industry, not a little office run by 5 people.

 

@BudMan, can you help out here?

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DevTech    1,517
14 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

I'm sorry, @DevTech, but you are talking about a big industry, not a little office run by 5 people.

 

@BudMan, can you help out here?

So NVMe is what we should get for consumer computers but business computers magically do better with slow hard drives? That's just completely self-contradictory hypocrisy!

 

Bet you everyone's gaming computer doesn't have a "good enough" hard drive!

 

Same tech. Same electrons going down the wire.

 

You can't spew out complete BS just because you say it's a "Business" thing... There is no reason that 5 people deserve to be ripped off, just because they are a "small" business. To them maybe it isn't small!

 

I never said it is a vital component, just that it is a better investment right now for a computer you buy in 2019 and expect to run for 11 years like his last one... 

 

He said he likes longevity. I took that into account... It's a subjective point I am making and I respect the other options being presented, but I noticed that the Dell website is VERY WEIRD around this after going through about 15 Dell Sever configs last night for this thread. Anyone else here do that?

 

It is silly that people are putting obsolete stuff on a pedestal with a gold trophy just so they can say their hard drives spin faster or something equally stupid as a badge of entry in the social club of Luddite thinking...

 

It's an investment purchase value hardware configuration opinion that I am politely expressing, and the resentment I am getting  is crazy silly "Not Invented Here Syndrome" and frankly not fair as I point out a sad evidence of bully-like behavior on the part of Dell and big suppliers.

 

EDIT: Also, I went to the effort to price out computers with SSD and NVMe that are in the same ballpark as the retro spinning thing configs. So what's your problem exactly? Same price, better hardware. Is there a law that says a 5 person company deserves to get ripped off and pay the same for stuff that is obsolete as soon as you drive it out of the lot?

 

 

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Mindovermaster    2,179

NVME is not used to store data. NVME is ONLY beneficial when you are constantly read/write to it. Like why we use it for our OS drive.

 

Yesterday's servers are just as good as today's. Are they faster? No, but they get the job done in adequite time.

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xendrome    5,492
Posted (edited)

OP sent you a PM, but this is what I would use in that situation with the budget at hand - https://www.dropbox.com/s/cxwrn0pz9ysxwbc/Dell - Cart.pdf?dl=0

 

I would just add on a 5th drive as a hot-spare at time of order.

 

This is a 5 year system. planning needs to be made half-way through the 4th year for replacement/migration due to hardware warranty expire and budgeting. You can typically extend the warranty on these an additional two years for around $1200, but I would believe by that time the company may have outgrown these specs.

 

$7,000 every 5 years for a profitable business to keep doing their thing is well worth it.

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DevTech    1,517

I've done the research.

 

I've presented solid state configs that are in the same price range as spinning ones.

 

I don't think you need the complexity of RAID for NVMe but I presented a RAID-10 config on a SATA SSD scenario, again NOT MORE EXPENSIVE

 

The 15K drives will die for sure. They need the complexity of RAID for sure. Yet everyone adores them and my attempts to be rational and logical in looking at a system for the next 10 years has been like I was tearing the arms and legs off of everyone's favorite Teddy Bear.

 

So, I think I amassed a lot of useful information and there is probably no point in vexing people with more. So, I'll be happy to respond to specific questions, but please think of your Teddy Bear as being warm and safe and comfy and so on...

 

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DevTech    1,517
5 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

NVME is not used to store data. NVME is ONLY beneficial when you are constantly read/write to it. Like why we use it for our OS drive.

 

Yesterday's servers are just as good as today's. Are they faster? No, but they get the job done in adequite time.

Yeah that is so wrong, I will leave the fundamentals to another day. But you might want to look up "Database" and wonder if you read and write to it or not...

 

Again, I proposed modern stuff that was NOT more expensive. So when you buy your next computer one of your objectives by your statement here will be to buy obsolete stuff for the same money because you don't need YOUR money as much as Dell needs to make extra profit and since you value them as a Charity Organization, you will be happy to accept "just adequate" for the same money.

 

Sorry, I can't seriously advocate that to another human being, and I haven't.

 

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Mindovermaster    2,179

I'm done. If anybody wants to fight with him, be my guest....

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DevTech    1,517
4 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

I'm done. If anybody wants to fight with him, be my guest....

Seriously, it is horrible to view an intellectual debate as a "fight"

 

The objective here is not to "win" but hopefully to arrive at insights and fundamental truths that might have been hidden until we hammer it out all in good nature...

 

The "winner" is that everyone learns stuff. Everyone knows more about stuff.

 

I have certainly learned a lot of stuff, including the obviously emotional attachment people have to those Hot Swap 15K SAS Bays! I don't work with those every day and maybe if I did, I would be very munch fonder of them...

 

And I've learned a few technical things as well!

 

Maybe if everyone listed the stuff they learned in this thread (in good faith, no sarcasm) then we can see the GOOD being achieved.

 

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Mindovermaster    2,179
2 minutes ago, DevTech said:

Seriously, it is horrible to view an intellectual debate as a "fight"

  

The objective here is not to "win" but hopefully to arrive at insights and fundamental truths that might have been hidden until we hammer it out all in good nature...

 

The "winner" is that everyone learns stuff. Everyone knows more about stuff.

 

I have certainly learned a lot of stuff, including the obviously emotional attachment people have to those Hot Swap 15K SAS Bays! I don't work with those every day and maybe if I did, I would be very munch fonder of them...

 

And I've learned a few technical things as well!

 

Maybe if everyone listed the stuff they learned in this thread (in good faith, no sarcasm) then we can see the GOOD being achieved.

 

Fight may be the wrong word, umm... reason with you?

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DevTech    1,517
2 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Fight may be the wrong word, umm... reason with you?

ALWAYS, am I open to friendly exchanges of information, say I.

 

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sc302    1,735

@DevTech database performance really depends.  To say that you will absolutely see a performance increase is a bit bold.  To say you should theoretically see a performance increase is more accurate. As stated before I went from a 15000 rpm sas array to a flash array and saw no performance increase what so ever.  I cannot say that it was worth it to switch other than for the fact that the array was end of life. 

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Matthew S.    1,000
2 minutes ago, DevTech said:

ALWAYS, am I open to friendly exchanges of information, say I.

 

@DevTechI've been following this thread for awhile as well as some of your other posts... Sometimes you come off a tad bit on the hostile side...

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DevTech    1,517
7 minutes ago, sc302 said:

@DevTech database performance really depends.  To say that you will absolutely see a performance increase is a bit bold.  To say you should theoretically see a performance increase is more accurate. As stated before I went from a 15000 rpm sas array to a flash array and saw no performance increase what so ever.  I cannot say that it was worth it to switch other than for the fact that the array was end of life. 

Right on! Sure that can happen. And it sure doesn't hurt to repeat we can't sit down with @patseguinand perform a complete Needs Assessment and measurement of his current DB setup.

 

So we do our best with general principles and hope there isn't a lot of "edge case" stuff like yours.

 

And there are so many different types of database tech for which different rules apply. Not simple.

 

I think if the cost is in the same ball park, he benefits by starting with a more modern config since he for sure does hold onto his stuff a long time. Logically he should see an employee or systemic productivity boost from the faster SSD but that can't be proven.

 

I think he is navigating the barrage of sometimes contradictory info very well and May The Force Be With Him...

 

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xendrome    5,492
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, DevTech said:

And it sure doesn't hurt to repeat we can't sit down with @patseguinand perform a complete Needs Assessment and measurement of his current DB setup.

 

With 5 users and what appears to be an embroidery shop? I'm just going to venture a guess but 1: A "Needs Assessment" isn't necessary and 2: Nothing they are doing is going to cause I/O queuing on this database that they are running.

 

Sometimes simple with a good warranty is sufficient.

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DevTech    1,517
14 minutes ago, Matthew S. said:

@DevTechI've been following this thread for awhile as well as some of your other posts... Sometimes you come off a tad bit on the hostile side...

I'm not a social person. I don't do glue words well. And smiley faces where they should be :) And I zero in on the data and often go nuts on the info.

 

On the other hand people insult me like crazy and I just ignore it and try to figure out what their data points are.

 

I would not want to see harm come to a single human being on this planet, not even orange haired clowns... But my humor formed in an overdose of Monty Python and that can sure seem hostile at times if you don't have trust in the underlying purpose...

 

 

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DevTech    1,517
3 minutes ago, xendrome said:

With 5 users and what appears to be an embroidery shop? I'm just going to venture a guess but 1: A "Needs Assessment" isn't necessary and 2: Nothing they are doing is going to cause I/O queuing on this database that they are running.

 

Sometimes simple with a good warranty is sufficient.

Yeah have you been reading the same thread?

 

That is exactly what we are discussing.

 

I think a simple SSD is VASTLY more simple than a RAID-5 15K Hot Swap SAS Bay full of drives about to die!

 

So, a simple SSD based system with a good warranty is sufficient.

 

Right? 

 

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sc302    1,735
6 minutes ago, DevTech said:

I'm not a social person. I don't do glue words well. And smiley faces where they should be :) And I zero in on the data and often go nuts on the info.

 

On the other hand people insult me like crazy and I just ignore it and try to figure out what their data points are.

 

I would not want to see harm come to a single human being on this planet, not even orange haired clowns... But my humor formed in an overdose of Monty Python and that can sure seem hostile at times if you don't have trust in the underlying purpose...

 

 

Quite a few of us are introverts here.   I consider myself to be one.   My wife hates that I am so quiet and that text resonates with me more than verbal conversation and the fact I don’t talk at home.  I am fun to be around, the life of the party.....if everyone was dead.

 

I don’t know everything, I want to learn and I want to engage. 

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Mindovermaster    2,179
Just now, sc302 said:

Quite a few of us are introverts here.   I consider myself to be one.   My wife hates that I am so quiet and that text resonates with me more than verbal conversation and the fact I don’t talk at home.  I am fun to be around, the life of the party.....if everyone was dead. 

Try the morgue.... 🤣

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DevTech    1,517
1 minute ago, Mindovermaster said:

Try the morgue.... 🤣

Thats humor and well intentioned, but he has a serious point.

 

When you live in a city of millions of people and you realize that maybe if you had a telepathic sensor you could find 10 other people if you were lucky that could sit in the same room with you and we glance at each other and everyone get's it... no words exchanged...

 

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DevTech    1,517
16 minutes ago, sc302 said:

Quite a few of us are introverts here.   I consider myself to be one.   My wife hates that I am so quiet and that text resonates with me more than verbal conversation and the fact I don’t talk at home.  I am fun to be around, the life of the party.....if everyone was dead.

 

I don’t know everything, I want to learn and I want to engage. 

I am DEEPLY moved by your post.

 

I have noticed already that you vigorously argue your opinions but honestly and immediately learn and adapt and correct mistakes so you already had my deepest respect for that.

 

But now, I would like to add that if anything I have said seemed unfair or nasty, I am very very sorry. Please don't hesitate to point out at any time if I am disturbing you or anyone. I will be happy to learn there...or anywhere... or with green eggs and ham..there I go again...

 

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xendrome    5,492
Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, DevTech said:

Yeah have you been reading the same thread?

 

That is exactly what we are discussing.

 

I think a simple SSD is VASTLY more simple than a RAID-5 15K Hot Swap SAS Bay full of drives about to die!

 

So, a simple SSD based system with a good warranty is sufficient.

 

Right? 

 

I totally disagree, this is a profit making business here. Downtime means loss of revenue and that means people can lose their jobs. I've run and migrated to/from dozens of servers with platter drives and have only had 2 failures in 15 years on Dell OEM hardware. Thank god for RAID5/10 setups, having a hot-spare available meant no downtime since I did not have to restore a backup image, had a hard drive from Dell in under 2 hours to replace the hotspare. These dell drives are enterprise level also, not consumer level.

 

Plus earlier you were talking about read/write ops on the drive and database I/O performance, if this was infact a database that would benefit from SSD for performance because of the load it was under I would be leery about using a single SSD for constant read/writes due to the wearing on the drives over a 5 year+ span, he said they had their current server for double that.

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