official World of Warcraft

[Emorex]

Yet again another "Blizzard hater". Of course anyone posting in this thread cares enough about the game they are most likely keeping up with the changes. And they are good changes, for the most part. How can you say changing core mechanics is bad when resilience brought balance to an otherwise completely unbalanced battleground? Or when nearly every caster weapon has both healing and spell damage stats, it is bad to simply combine them into spell power with appropriate changes made to equal out the less +healing?

You are completely misinformed, and it sounds like you want something to bash because you don't fully understand what is happening.

So just because I don't agree with what blizzard is doing I am a "blizzard hater"?

[ANON86364]

So just because I don't agree with what blizzard is doing I am a "blizzard hater"?

Not at all. What's not to understand about the need to change mechanics? With new expansions, only so much testing can be done to find the imbalances between classes, and by the time players reach the level cap those imbalances are taken to the extreme you hear of "zomg locks are OP" and the like. Expansions also present amazing new content and new ideas that developers from Blizzard rack their brains over to bring you great game play. Along with those new ideas, abilities, there will be the need to re-balance a little.

So you including two great expansions in saying they present unneeded changes sounds like hating to me.

[Emorex]

My argument is that expansion does not justify a mechanic change. Take the change to +damage/+healing to +spellpower. Also, they changed +spell crit/+crit to be just +crit. Now you essentially have people fighting over the same gear. Obviously there are good sides to this too, because more people can use 1 piece of gear, it is not sharded. But still...there was no reason to change it.

Another mechanic change is this whole dual specs things they have planned. There are some fundamental things wrong with it, but I will reserve my comments until all details are fully unveiled.

Finally, the biggest change that has me quitting the game over, is that they are forcing arena on PvPers. I tried arenas on 3 different characters, and every single time I hated it. I tried 2 and 3 man only so far, and hated both of those. It's just a glorified, controlled dual. There is nothing special about it, and it ruins the whole WARcraft atmosphere. The game was supposed to be about two factions at war with each other, not a pair of people fighting each other over glory. I understand that some people like Arena, but forcing people to do arena is a terrible decision. Their rationale for this is it is easier to measure skill, aka NO MOAR WELFARE EPIXX FO U FOOL. But clearly, raiding requires so much more skill. Once SK, Nihilum, Vis Major plow through the raids for world firsts what do other guilds do? They take their strategy and tune it. Once they get it down the first time, it's just farming the boss endlessly for their loot. Clearly, shows how much skill it requires.

Also, don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about, I raided pre-TBC, upto 4 horsemen in Naxx, when my guild disbanded due to lack of attendance. Raiding when people used kitchen timers? Ya, I did that. Raiding without raid frames? been there done that. Raiding without threat meters, boss mods? yup.

Instead of spending time over changing mechanics maybe they can work on something else? Like another hero class? Or another battleground?

[Sethos]

Wait, forced arena? Why, how, what?!

Arena is god awful boring!

[the evn show]

My argument is that expansion does not justify a mechanic change. Take the change to +damage/+healing to +spellpower. Also, they changed +spell crit/+crit to be just +crit. Now you essentially have people fighting over the same gear. Obviously there are good sides to this too, because more people can use 1 piece of gear, it is not sharded. But still...there was no reason to change it.

Um, loot getting sharded week after week isn't a good reason to stop rewarding people with things they don't want?

...skipping rant....

Also, don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about, I raided pre-TBC, upto 4 horsemen in Naxx, when my guild disbanded due to lack of attendance. Raiding when people used kitchen timers? Ya, I did that. Raiding without raid frames? been there done that. Raiding without threat meters, boss mods? yup.

Me too. Is there a cookie I can claim?

Instead of spending time over changing mechanics maybe they can work on something else? Like another hero class? Or another battleground?

At the end of this expansion the existing mechanics, encounter design, and balance are not working and they are so 'not fun' and 'broken' that significant changes are required.

Further, its not as though the person behind Koraa (class designer) could take over for Daelo (encounter design): they're no more qualified than I am.

[Emorex]

Me too. Is there a cookie I can claim?

Here's your cookie.

Way to address the raiding points of this game, because clearly that's all this game is.

At the end of this expansion the existing mechanics, encounter design, and balance are not working and they are so 'not fun' and 'broken' that significant changes are required.

Easy for you to complain AFTER doing everything. If the encounters, mechanics, are 'not fun' and 'broken' why did you raid upto KJ?

Wait, forced arena? Why, how, what?!

Arena is god awful boring!

Yup...lowest level PvP gear now requires Honor + Arena points. Next level (season 1...or 5) requires Arena Points + Rating. Highest level (Season 2 or... 6) requires Arena Rating.

[ANON86364]

Easy for you to complain AFTER doing everything. If the encounters, mechanics, are 'not fun' and 'broken' why did you raid upto KJ?

As I mentioned, there are aspects of the game that are, I guess you could say "broken", and people unsurprisingly take advantage of those, I call "irregularities" or "imbalances", between classes. And why not? What makes the game fun (for raiders) is progression.

Yup...lowest level PvP gear now requires Honor + Arena points. Next level (season 1...or 5) requires Arena Points + Rating. Highest level (Season 2 or... 6) requires Arena Rating.

So what? Are you sad that you can no longer get your welfare epics and turn around and use them for PvE or pwn face in PvP? I was one of the many players who got my welfare epics and started raiding Kara/Heroics with them. There are two distinct niches of the game, raiding and PvP. Blizzard, I feel, wants to make people work for their gear in both niches. For too long have people taken the easy route, Blizzard wants people to actually work for their epic gear and work towards "professional" PVP and Raiding. With this being done, you won't have that noob ass <insert class> who got his full S2 and can literally chew people alive in BGs or think they have what it takes to run Kara.

Edited October 10, 2008 by lord_xenos

[Emorex]

So what? Are you sad that you can no longer get your welfare epics and turn around and use them for PvE or pwn face in PvP? I was one of the many players who got my welfare epics and started raiding Kara/Heroics with them. There are two distinct niches of the game, raiding and PvP. Blizzard, I feel, wants to make people work for their gear in both niches. For too long have people taken the easy route, Blizzard wants people to actually work for their epic gear and work towards "professional" PVP and Raiding. With this being done, you won't have that noob ass <insert class> who got his full S2 and can literally chew people alive in BGs or think they have what it takes to run Kara.

Take a look at my previous post regarding how difficult WoW PvE is :) Also, no one chews out anyone with S2...it's called a lucky shot and that's just the consequences of RNG. Someone in blues is obviously going to get chewed out, but they have the chance to get the same S2 gear and put up a good fight. If you just ding 70 and expect to put up a fight in BGs, you are severely mistaken.

Clearly the amount of work required for PvP Gear is much higher than PvE gear, and it will be evident once Wotlk comes around. You guys can argue as much as you want and defend how hard WoW PvE is, but everyone knows WoW PvE is a joke, where you just repeat the same things other guilds did or what worked last time.

[ANON86364]

Take a look at my previous post regarding how difficult WoW PvE is :) Also, no one chews out anyone with S2...it's called a lucky shot and that's just the consequences of RNG. Someone in blues is obviously going to get chewed out, but they have the chance to get the same S2 gear and put up a good fight. If you just ding 70 and expect to put up a fight in BGs, you are severely mistaken.

lol...No one chews anyone out with S2...right. I think I would know all about the PvP grind after dinging.

Clearly the amount of work required for PvP Gear is much higher than PvE gear, and it will be evident once Wotlk comes around. You guys can argue as much as you want and defend how hard WoW PvE is, but everyone knows WoW PvE is a joke, where you just repeat the same things other guilds did or what worked last time.

Maybe you were lucky in some way and had people hold your hand through PvE. 70 instances and raiding gets significantly harder towards end game. People who don't know their class don't make it, people who don't know other classes don't make it. You have to know what group makeup will get you to finish an instance or raid. I don't care if a raid is easy after you've cleared it the first time. Why is it easy? Because we work our asses off to find that perfect makeup, perfect group of raiders, and perfect strategy. The fun is in that process, and the reward is the success that follows.

...where you just repeat the same things other guilds did or what worked last time.

Wow, it sounds like your describing arena.

Edited October 10, 2008 by lord_xenos

[obiwong]

Clearly the amount of work required for PvP Gear is much higher than PvE gear, and it will be evident once Wotlk comes around. You guys can argue as much as you want and defend how hard WoW PvE is, but everyone knows WoW PvE is a joke, where you just repeat the same things other guilds did or what worked last time.

if WoW PvE is a joke then why haven't more people killed KJ? all they have to do is repeat what SK Gaming did amiright?

[Art3x]

If you get 25 ppl with the exact same make up as SK's you will kill kj?

No. Try again, please.

[ANON86364]

If you get 25 ppl with the exact same make up as SK's you will kill kj?

No. Try again, please.

Um who are you talking to? I believe I sense sarcasm from Obi Wong...try again?

[obiwong]

Um who are you talking to? I believe I sense sarcasm from Obi Wong...try again?

sarcasm from me?! never :p

[Crompee]

My argument is that expansion does not justify a mechanic change. Take the change to +damage/+healing to +spellpower. Also, they changed +spell crit/+crit to be just +crit. Now you essentially have people fighting over the same gear. Obviously there are good sides to this too, because more people can use 1 piece of gear, it is not sharded. But still...there was no reason to change it.

Yes, there was reason to change it.. as alot of loot got shared while alot of loot people needed didnt drop (due to the loot table being too big). Now the loot which drops will be needed the majority of the time. People fighting over the same gear, is much better than nobody fighting over gear as nothing useful has dropped.

Its the same reason TBC (or late Vanilla WoW) brought tier tokens instead of drops.. so whatever classes you have in the raids, the loot will be needed the most of the time. This is just taking that idea one step further.

Another mechanic change is this whole dual specs things they have planned. There are some fundamental things wrong with it, but I will reserve my comments until all details are fully unveiled.

Same, cant complain about something you dont know about :)

Finally, the biggest change that has me quitting the game over, is that they are forcing arena on PvPers. I tried arenas on 3 different characters, and every single time I hated it. I tried 2 and 3 man only so far, and hated both of those. It's just a glorified, controlled dual. There is nothing special about it, and it ruins the whole WARcraft atmosphere. The game was supposed to be about two factions at war with each other, not a pair of people fighting each other over glory. I understand that some people like Arena, but forcing people to do arena is a terrible decision. Their rationale for this is it is easier to measure skill, aka NO MOAR WELFARE EPIXX FO U FOOL. But clearly, raiding requires so much more skill. Once SK, Nihilum, Vis Major plow through the raids for world firsts what do other guilds do? They take their strategy and tune it. Once they get it down the first time, it's just farming the boss endlessly for their loot. Clearly, shows how much skill it requires.

Its mainly just a matter of opinion, i disliked arena as well.

Also, don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about, I raided pre-TBC, upto 4 horsemen in Naxx, when my guild disbanded due to lack of attendance. Raiding when people used kitchen timers? Ya, I did that. Raiding without raid frames? been there done that. Raiding without threat meters, boss mods? yup.

The other side to this, is now bosses are tuned for raid frames, threat meters, boss mods :)

For example, Brutullus would be impossible without a threat meter.. as its that close for your first kill.

Instead of spending time over changing mechanics maybe they can work on something else? Like another hero class? Or another battleground?

Adding in another class doesnt fix anything that was complained about in the previous expansion nor does it offer any changes to those players who dont want to reroll. Changing the mechanics, changes the game and keeps it fresh.

[Eric Veteran]

I thought arena was awful too. Like fighting in someone's dining room. :( If they keep it the way they have planned and battle grounds don't award anything useful I'll by flying my little mount right out the door behind my guild. :)

[Emorex]

if WoW PvE is a joke then why haven't more people killed KJ? all they have to do is repeat what SK Gaming did amiright?

If Sunwell was when TBC came out, I'm sure that number would change. Take a look at Kara. People just stop raiding after kara, not because it's "hard", but because they get bored of it, or cannot get 25 people together. Also, getting 25 people together shouldn't constitute as difficulty of raiding. Also, until Blizzard unveils numbers, I don't have to believe anything a site says. Using the pic you put up, take a look at Kara - Hyjal. BT and Sunwell came far too close to the expansion.

@IanPete / Lord_Xenos: If you have nothing constructive to post, maybe you should refrain from posting.

@Crompee:

I still think more battlegrounds can keep it fresh :) Also, with what I have played in beta, Lake Wintergrasp is just a very long BG...doesn't feel very epic to me. Also, it's on a 4 hour timer...so that means, people on average will be able to do 1-2 LWGs a day....ya way to go Blizzard. Would be nice if Blizzard can add a couple more BGs. Some may argue that you are spreading the population too thin....but with 10 million (supposedly) people playing...it will be okay.

@GrayWolfSC:

Yup, I feel the same, and I will not be buying Wotlk until I see some changes to PvP.

[ANON86364]

I'm not exactly sure what to expect from the outdoor PvP areas, but I have a feeling they plan to integrate a lot into that aspect. For instance, I do know that there will significant buffs for raiders in certain zones if they complete and win an outdoor PvP event. Really I don't come down on Blizzard for what we don't know to be truth yet.

[Slane]

Clearly the amount of work required for PvP Gear is much higher than PvE gear, and it will be evident once Wotlk comes around. You guys can argue as much as you want and defend how hard WoW PvE is, but everyone knows WoW PvE is a joke, where you just repeat the same things other guilds did or what worked last time.

The Savage gear (starter set) in PvP requires 6000HP and 350 AP (vairies piece to piece). That's umm, really easy to achieve. It doesn't require a rating, just form a losing arena team (already rampant) or a team that focuses on points and your good to go. No more /afk for gear, less welfare. Hell ya! Still isn't hard, now you actually have to work just a little bit. The Hateful Gladiator (season 5/1) requires the same amount of honor (which is easy, no matter how you try to spin it) and double the amoun of points compared to Savage. And GASP it requires a rating (which will probally change/decrease after the season ends and new one begins). Arena rating of 1825 for shoulders is highest arena rating.

So your complaining that you will have to work for your PvP gear in WotLK, instead of simply losing. It's going to encourage you to be a better player or pay better players to get you the rating/points that you need. Sounds good to me. No more welfare is fine with me. But then your saying PvE is so much easier than PvP. Right. Having 25 people all know the fight, all able to perform the tasks they need to when they need to is easy (not mentioning 10 man, because you will be able to pug that from the start). Sure once you learn a fight and down that boss (have you been there for that feeling?) it becomes easier, and why shouldn't it? You worked hard to down theses bosses (going to assume were passed Naxx for this discussion), you spent time learning it and being able to one-shot it weekly is a reward. Of course you still have to wait on RNG to give you the piece of loot, because random loot is so easy to acquire. Right?

Now with PvP, you play battlegrounds, which doesn't matter if you win or loose. Winning means it's quicker, losing just means a few more games. But it doesn't matter, you still get marks and honor with ever lose or win. Then come arena, you can simply form a losing team and manage to get the full Savage Gladiator with little to no problem. But wait you wanna get Hateful Gladiator. Okay, you and partner(s) form a team, do practice, make sure you all work together, and all understand that LOS'ing is a skill and when to do it. And you just keep playing, you'll loose games you'll win some. But eventually your AR will continue to go up, and you'll continue to win points and be able to purchase said gear.

In all honestly, I think acquiring gear is "harder" in PvE simply due to the fact you have to rely on RNG (random number generator). PvP, you just have to get X amount of honor, X amount of points and sometimes X rating. Anything random is "harder" than something that isn't. Of course, if you suck at PvP, you'll complain it's hard. But that's because you really do suck, or your to lazy to find partners and try to become better players and work for your gear.

[Emorex]

Slane, my whole argument against the changes to PvP gear requiring arena points is that some people don't like arena. Kinda defeats the purpose if people just make losing teams...what's the point of that then? Come 3.1, they will up the arena points to 700 and next expansion, no rewards from BGs at all.

This way, people cannot just form losing teams. People tried forming losing teams in BGs, and got banned. Who's to say Blizzard won't ban arena teams for losing?

@Lord_Xenos: I am in the beta and played Lake Wintergrasp significantly. I can honestly say, it is just a overhyped BG with an extremely long cooldown. 4 Hours is absolutely bull****. Most people cannot even get 2 Lake Wintergrasp games in 1 night.

[ANON86364]

@IanPete / Lord_Xenos: If you have nothing constructive to post, maybe you should refrain from posting.

I have nothing constructive to say? I have very valid points which I think you need to reply to in order for you to hold any more water in this discussion.My Post

If Sunwell was when TBC came out, I'm sure that number would change. Take a look at Kara. People just stop raiding after kara, not because it's "hard", but because they get bored of it, or cannot get 25 people together. Also, getting 25 people together shouldn't constitute as difficulty of raiding. Also, until Blizzard unveils numbers, I don't have to believe anything a site says. Using the pic you put up, take a look at Kara - Hyjal. BT and Sunwell came far too close to the expansion.

I don't think anyone said getting the 25 people together was what made raiding hard. For those that stop or stall at Kara, those are the typical players who get their taste of raiding. It's the core raiders that actually push forward and create or join guilds and complete the later raids. If that's not for you, I couldn't care less. But the PvP niche follows the same principal; everyone and their mother has the S2 set now from BGs (just like everyone and their mother has run Kara), but only the core PvP'ers have the S3 and S4 sets.

If you can't find your niche in the game, then as you said, you need to quit WoW and find another game that's a bit easier for you to swallow.

[Joseph B]

Hi, World of Warcraft is serious business.

Sincerely, Joseph B.

[Emorex]

I have nothing constructive to say? I have very valid points which I think you need to reply to in order for you to hold any more water in this discussion. My REAL Post

fixd.

Looks like you proved my point for me with your second paragraph :) Thanks. Your points have been replied to by yourself.

If you couldn't figure it out, you equated Kara to S2. "Got a taste of raiding with kara". What do you think naxx is? And why can't I get my PvP gear as easily as getting gear from Naxx? What do you think is going to happen in 3.1? New Raid instance comes out. Savage (blue) PvP gear gets dumped, season (5/1) gets pushed to Honor/Arena....people start farming Naxx like Kara. Arena points didn't disappear from the lowest level PvP Gear.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Emorex

[Art3x]

Um who are you talking to? I believe I sense sarcasm from Obi Wong...try again?

It was directed at whomever said that all raiding is following a set strategy. Sure strategy is huge but you can't just get x number of each class and put them in the right spot and kill a boss.

Sorry if it was a bit ambiguous I was posting from my phone :x

[ANON86364]

fixd.

Looks like you proved my point for me with your second paragraph :) Thanks. Your points have been replied to by yourself.

If you couldn't figure it out, you equated Kara to S2. "Got a taste of raiding with kara". What do you think naxx is?

You are completely running in circles now. You choose not to reply to my post.

What is not to understand about there being a "beginner" raid? Naxx will be the new Kara. And there will be many raids after Naxx that will require much more skill. Raids that obviously players like you will not be attending.

It was directed at whomever said that all raiding is following a set strategy. Sure strategy is huge but you can't just get x number of each class and put them in the right spot and kill a boss.

Sorry if it was a bit ambiguous I was posting from my phone :x

lol :p

[the evn show]

Way to address the raiding points of this game, because clearly that's all this game is.

I'll talk about the part I know about.

Easy for you to complain AFTER doing everything. If the encounters, mechanics, are 'not fun' and 'broken' why did you raid upto KJ?

Some parts of the game are still fun. On the whole Felmyst is a great encounter, but it stucks to have a sign at the door "3 priests or go home, 5 is probably a good idea".

For the other things I disliked (ie: 40 bag slots to have full sets of DPS and healing gear), it was tollerated because the annoyance was overshadowed by the fun of doing other stuff. Just because <X> is fun doesn't mean I should tolerate <Y> not fun things. On the whole TBC has been really good about finding and removing the 'boring' stuff so that we can all focus on the things we like.

PVP players aren't required to do PVE if they want to be competetive. Raiders don't beat encounters by collecting world buffs & chucking gold at the auction house. Etc.

Yup...lowest level PvP gear now requires Honor + Arena points. Next level (season 1...or 5) requires Arena Points + Rating. Highest level (Season 2 or... 6) requires Arena Rating.

The lowest collection of PVP gear is crafted and only requires a trip to the auction house. If you want better then you'll be required to perform poorly in arenas and battlegrounds.

If you're truely desparate to avoid arena, you can form a group to raid the boss unlocked by winning Wintergrasp and collect your Season 5+ or 5++ gear from him.

If players don't like to do battlegrounds, world pvp, arena, or small/large group PVE then they really don't need gear.

I don't care if there's a viable upgrade path for people /afk in front of the horde quarter.