One finger salute to Vista

[markwolfe Veteran]

:laugh: and very very true at the same time. These people seem to believe so strongly in what they have released that they are blinded by glaring issues and complaints - instead of taking these complaints and working hard to fix the damn issues this Microsoft guy just goes out to prove that customers are wrong. Insane.

Brandon Live is a pretty reasonable person (even though he and I fundamentally disagree on many items). And it seems awfully silly to either, a) disallow Microsoft employees from becoming a Neowin.net member and posting on here as a "normal person" or to b) force disclaimers on every post a Microsoft employee makes. Perhaps get the US DoJ involved in this, too? :no:

When he posts and either makes an incorrect assumption or an error (we have all made mistakes from time to time), I feel free to discuss this with him and point out what problems in his arguments that I see. It doesn't matter if he is an employee of Microsoft or not. In fact, the insight into Microsoft as an employee sees things is interesting to read at times.

So, please, discuss points, facts and issues. Not people.

P.S. Staff members, looking at the first post, I really think that this is more of a "soapbox" thing where the O.P. is venting and airing complaints, not asking for assistance or such as should be in the support forums.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Thanks, Mark :)

Just to be clear: I was a Neowin member for years before I came to work at MS... so it's not like I joined the forum to sing its praises or anything like that. I've always enjoyed most of the discussions that happen on these forums and while I may have a somewhat different perspective now I don't think it's made my contributions any less reasonable. I don't hide the fact that I work at Microsoft (on Windows no less), but I'm not going to go around shouting about it. I post here on my own time and absolutely nothing I say represents Microsoft's views, policies, opinions, or anything else. At the same time, I find that staying in touch with users (especially the power users / enthusiasts) is extremely important and helps me personally stay grounded.

Do you honestly think Microsoft cares about any of its users? How about this. Windows should earn its reputation as the leader in software by the quality of products it produces. Thats what google did and they crushed yahoo.

Every single person on my team cares about our users. It might surprise you, but we really don't sit around dreaming up ways to screw people, take away your freedoms, and undermine competitors through nefarious means. We are users in the end just like you are. Do you really think we're going to try and build something that we ourselves wouldn't want to use? In fact most of us are so passionate about making the best, coolest product that even when we go out for beer and wings or have a team poker night some of us will inevitably be talking about cool ideas we have for new features or projects. That's one of the things I love most about my job - how focused we are on building cool experiences, and how it doesn't stop when you leave the office.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

"Ext3": default filesystem for the most common linux distributions nowadays (specially after the Reiser murder case). not lame, but very versatile and which performs well, hence the reason it's the default operating system.

"ReiserFS": definetly not a clone of NTFS given the fact that this FS has metadata and block journaling built in, not to mention the fact that it has features built in to avoid fragmentation.

From what I remember, Ext2 works largely the same as FAT. Ext3 bolts on a couple features like a journal, but it's still a very dated architecture. From what I remember you can't even defragment Ext3 drives without converting them to Ext2.

NTFS and Reiser are far more modern filesystems. Reiser follows the basic model of NTFS, for example by using a B+ tree for directory strucuture, ACLs for security, and uses many of the same methods of reducing fragmentation. Thus why I tend to classify it as an "NTFS clone" though it's missing many other NTFS features.

[Lenin91]

You're either using really crappy software, an old beta, not trying out 'compatibility' mode, or aren't very good with computers.

Though I've only needed compatibility mode on one piece of software, and only in RC1 and below...Solidworks 2006 wouldn't run without being run in Windows 2000 mode for some reason. Since RC2 it's just worked fine without compatibility mode, though.

Seriously. I haven't had a notable compatibility or stability problem with Vista RTM other than Nero and divx fighting each other to the death (Since then been resolved.)

Stop defending it!! It's true.. I install a bit older game to play, i start it, and it gives me "not-responding" before even getting in the game.. then it closes.. woohoo? Vista has been a long way of timewaste, i'd rather have SP3 for XP by now...

[Linkinfamous]

Stop defending it!! It's true.. I install a bit older game to play, i start it, and it gives me "not-responding" before even getting in the game.. then it closes.. woohoo? Vista has been a long way of timewaste, i'd rather have SP3 for XP by now...

I'm sorry. I just really haven't had any issues. What "older game"? It's quite possible that it's just your graphics drivers, which do suck at the moment.

Nope it's just that you're not able to reproduce any problem. Go start installing something and at the same import cookie to your internet explorer no.gif

You're going to wait good couple of minutes...IE will be pretty dead (not responding)

How do you import cookies? (I don't use IE, so I'm not that familiar with it.)

[LiGhTfast]

It might be a good OS but i untill theres some proper drivers out, vista is in league with windows me. Its not just missing/half assed drivers but the fact that most companies cant be bothered to make drivers for it unless it the flag ship latest piece of junk there trying to sell. To use vista you have to lose functionallity of hardware and from the users point of view you only gain a new GUI which is pretty boring now. it just isnt worth the hassle (yet)

[bibutteryboy]

Its not just missing/half assed drivers but the fact that most companies cant be bothered to make drivers for ii

that's gotta be one of the most foolish statements made yet.

Who else are companies hustling for to get drivers out the door? Mac's? Linux?

When over 90% of the population uses a certain OS then I doubt companies are saying that they can't be bothered producing drivers for their products that are focused on that particular OS.

[MrCobra]

Just like Apple locking their OS to their hardware. If you don't like it, don't buy it! Isn't capitalism wonderful?

That argument doesn't hold any weight. Apple makes BOTH the software and the hardware on which it runs. Microsoft doesn't make the hardware on which their OS runs. Just because a user used DR-DOS back in the day (a better product too) and couldn't use Windows because of it was bullsh*t. During the law suit at the time internal Microsoft memos were submitted into evidence that basically said to not allow Windows to run on anything but MS-DOS. Not that it couldn't but because it would hurt their dominance. Also with the law suit over artificially tying IE to the OS.

Microsoft tries to show the world that they've changed. All they've done is covered themselves better than they used to and show the public what they want them to see. You or anyone else can't make me believe that any company that was as ruthless as Microsoft was about crushing the competition just all of a sudden magically changed their ways.

Since the early days of Microsoft the "Embrace, Extend and Extinguish" philosophy has been there. I've seen it happen from the late 70s up until present day. There isn't any company that gets to #1 position by playing nice and they don't keep that position by doing so either.

Edited December 26, 2006 by MrCobra

[duntkno]

i think bottomline, you need a real modern pc to run vista without so many problems, especially those related to its speed. I know i dont care what os im running, as long as its fast. ... which is why i made my own. j/k.

[Brody McKee]

-Applications generally don't run as quick as Windows XP.

I find the opposite... most run faster thanks to better RAM management.

-File copying from DVD drive to Hard Disk is speed retarded.

Hmmm... haven't noticed (or cared).

-Lots of my games don't work or work at what seems is 30% slower than under Windows XP.

Really? Tried downloading drivers? Did you realise all NVIDIA/ATI drivers are beta still?

Either way, my games run faster (ATI, latest *beta* drivers).

-My wife goes to www.tvpolonia.com and Internet Explorer dies - repeatedly.

Tried it, spent fifteen minutes on it. NO CRASHES!

I'm not even touching Windows Vista until after SP1 is released.

Good. You obviously don't know how to use a computer very well and should stay safe by sticking with what you know.

Microsoft tries to show the world that they've changed. All they've done is covered themselves better than they used to and show the public what they want them to see.

So they've become Apple? And I am serious.

You or anyone else can't make me believe that any company that was as ruthless as Microsoft was about crushing the competition just all of a sudden magically changed their ways.

I do. They have been stomped on by many authorities, the press hates them and all the public sees are these negatives about Microsoft. They need to change to survive, and they know it. It's just taking time - as you'd expect it to. Rome wasn't created in a day (Don't make a comment about Rome's fall please! That's just a saying!).

[MidnightDevil]

Heya,

I tried Vista and submited more than 1 bug. I submited every bug and crash I had with my hardware, drivers, etc..

but still, then again, it's still slow as hell, has a few "explorer" delays and lag. specially copying files.

some actions lag more than usual.

I'll go back to it again, soon as SP1 comes out.

Just like Windows XP.

Its not a bad SO, but needs fixing.

and no, it's no my "weird" hardware.

[notuptome2004]

i have had no issues with vista and as for performance it is far better then XP on this same dang machine so i dont see how any of you who cliam to have so many issues have issues, i think you peaple use it for maby 3 to 6 min or so and then make up the rest of your story. i would like you to come to my house with that system and show me the issues you are haveing show me in pearson cause unless you can show us physicle proof of your bad issues and crappy time with vista i will not take your word for it nore beleave you in any witch way. i run a 1.8ghz AMD XP chip witha FX 5600 oh and 1.5gb of ram and my performance is atleast 3x faster or better , now sure in older betas ther was some iffy moments on performance but that is now all gone as it is damn fast.

Games run fine in vista for me and i have no issues now while yes i am ona crappy graphics card it still is a improvment for gaming for me cause evan games that default in Dx9 mode run around 7FPs faster LOL but at anyrate games are faster.

Drivers you do know that windows vista comes compiled or what have you with 17,000 or more drivers on the DVD and that on launch they plan to have 20,000+ drivers on windows update so i would say Drivers should be a no issue.

Interface so those of you who look at the Interface and go oh is that all...... MMM No that is not all cause if you are thinking from pictures and or a small 5 min stent on vista that all that is new is the new interface then your mistaken ... If i wanted just the nice new interface and didnt care about how it was renderd or if it was exactly the same and all i wanted was just that i would run windows XP with windows blinds 5 and run a simuler interface but since i want more then just that and everything else vista has to offer then i w am using and plan on using vista from here on out.

Brandon Live. you are prolly the most exsperianced vista user in here and your opions should be agreed with all the time as you work for microsoft now and you know more about vista then 98% of us.

[MrCobra]

I do. They have been stomped on by many authorities, the press hates them and all the public sees are these negatives about Microsoft. They need to change to survive, and they know it. It's just taking time - as you'd expect it to. Rome wasn't created in a day (Don't make a comment about Rome's fall please! That's just a saying!).

They've become IBM. IBM were also in the process of chainging their corporate ways before they fell to pieces. Look at what IBM used to be and what they are now. Microsoft is on that same path. It's just a matter of when and how hard they fall.

[xoq100.]

They've become IBM. IBM were also in the process of chainging their corporate ways before they fell to pieces. Look at what IBM used to be and what they are now. Microsoft is on that same path. It's just a matter of when and how hard they fall.

I'm sorry, but comparing IBM to Microsoft is complete bogus. There not similar at all.

[freak_power]

That argument doesn't hold any weight. Apple makes BOTH the software and the hardware on which it runs. Microsoft doesn't make the hardware on which their OS runs. Just because a user used DR-DOS back in the day (a better product too) and couldn't use Windows because of it was bullsh*t. During the law suit at the time internal Microsoft memos were submitted into evidence that basically said to not allow Windows to run on anything but MS-DOS. Not that it couldn't but because it would hurt their dominance. Also with the law suit over artificially tying IE to the OS.

Microsoft tries to show the world that they've changed. All they've done is covered themselves better than they used to and show the public what they want them to see. You or anyone else can't make me believe that any company that was as ruthless as Microsoft was about crushing the competition just all of a sudden magically changed their ways.

Since the early days of Microsoft the "Embrace, Extend and Extinguish" philosophy has been there. I've seen it happen from the late 70s up until present day. There isn't any company that gets to #1 position by playing nice and they don't keep that position by doing so either.

Apple doesn't make any hardware...that's bull****. They use PC components, put it together into box with apple sticker on it.

Apple just like Microsoft makes some hardware parts...nothing major...iPod, keyboard, mouse, Zune

They've become IBM. IBM were also in the process of chainging their corporate ways before they fell to pieces. Look at what IBM used to be and what they are now. Microsoft is on that same path. It's just a matter of when and how hard they fall.

I agree...IBM is the biggest bull**** on the market now....and pretty much any software which is coming from IBM sucks...

[majortom1981]

Apple doesn't make any hardware...that's bull****. They use PC components, put it together into box with apple sticker on it.

Apple just like Microsoft makes some hardware parts...nothing major...iPod, keyboard, mouse, Zune

I agree...IBM is the biggest bull**** on the market now....and pretty much any software which is coming from IBM sucks...

Yes but apple knows the exact hardware that they are putting in their machines and can taylor the operating system to it. Microsoft does not make the computers that they are sold on.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

That argument doesn't hold any weight. Apple makes BOTH the software and the hardware on which it runs. Microsoft doesn't make the hardware on which their OS runs. Just because a user used DR-DOS back in the day (a better product too) and couldn't use Windows because of it was bullsh*t. During the law suit at the time internal Microsoft memos were submitted into evidence that basically said to not allow Windows to run on anything but MS-DOS. Not that it couldn't but because it would hurt their dominance. Also with the law suit over artificially tying IE to the OS.

You seem to have confused the analogy. Microsoft made BOTH Windows and the DOS platform on which it ran. How is that in any conceivable way different from Apple locking their OS to their hardware? It is not. There is nothing technical preventing Mac OS X from running on a Dell or Lenovo PC. However it benefits Apple to keep it that way, so they implement measures in the OS to make sure it is only running on Apple hardware. Just like very old versions of Windows apparently checked to see if they were running on MS-DOS. Nothing nefarious about that. If another company wanted to compete they should have built their own DOS and their own GUI for it - or approached Microsoft about a possible agreement that could be mutually beneficial. Remember, at the time this happened - Microsoft was far from a monopoly. So don't say they were "abusing monopoly powers" or whatever. It was and still is a stupid thing to whine about.

Microsoft tries to show the world that they've changed. All they've done is covered themselves better than they used to and show the public what they want them to see. You or anyone else can't make me believe that any company that was as ruthless as Microsoft was about crushing the competition just all of a sudden magically changed their ways.

Everyone at Microsoft wants to win. Is that a bad thing? Fierce competitiveness is part of our culture, and a big reason for Microsoft's success. Again - do you think that's a bad thing? Microsoft goes to extremes to ensure that everything the company does is compliant with the law and various rulings/settlements. Does that mean we should stop trying to build new features? Does that mean we should roll over and let other companies tear us apart?

I don't think so. We want to win. And we want to do it by having the best quality, features, and seamless experience.

Since the early days of Microsoft the "Embrace, Extend and Extinguish" philosophy has been there. I've seen it happen from the late 70s up until present day. There isn't any company that gets to #1 position by playing nice and they don't keep that position by doing so either.

I still don't know where the "Extinguish" thing comes from - got any examples? And you're right that companies aren't supposed to "play nice" - I don't think Apple is playing nice with their ads making fun of Windows PCs. Or that they are playing nice to companies like Dell by locking their OS to their hardware - but letting you run Windows on it.

In my opinion, Anti-Trust laws exist to prevent the creation of trusts. But that's never what Microsoft was. Microsoft has always had competitors - they've just never been very good competitors.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Brandon Live

[1Frothy]

i think bottomline, you need a real modern pc to run vista without so many problems, especially those related to its speed. I know i dont care what os im running, as long as its fast. ... which is why i made my own. j/k.

That is exactly what I believed. I blamed my "old" PC - and AMD X2 system built on nForce4 for the different problems I was seeing. So I broke the bank. I went out and bought an Intel Core 2 Duo processor, 4GB of RAM, Serial ATAII Hard Discs and more. At the end of it all I found that Vista did run most of my hardware out of the box but drivers showed instabilities, Vista seemed to run programes mostly OK but games are slower, memory usage is bordering on the ridiculous - even on a 4GB system and the operating system itself feels flimsy and not as solid or stable as Windows XP.

On top of that the coolness of the transparencies wore off very quickly, the darkness of the Aero theme (Why is the taskbar always black, no matter how I customize my Aero colors?) became too much and I happily reinstalled Windows XP with em3's themes and was happy to see Windows the way I want it.

I used to believe that SP1 would fix much of what I don't like in Vista. I don't think this is going to happen now. There are just too many things in Vista that I simply don't like, don't want or don't need.

I am happy to see that Microsoft is gathering feedback for the next version of Windows before they have decided on how its going to be. I hope this is a "new" Microsoft I'm seeing because to me Windows Vista is not the best Windows yet although I had high hopes it would be.

[AOXOMOXOA]

IE 7 is crap. i keep having to uninstall it from peoples computers.

[TruckWEB]

IE 7 is crap. i keep having to uninstall it from peoples computers.

IE7 is much better than what we had before, IE6. But theirs is bugs with it, some site I visit just don't work well, I have to switch to Firefox 2 to see them correctly. Mostly site with video....

And much of the problems people have with Vista right now are all mostly related to drivers problem. I'm still waiting on HP (printer), Cannon (scanner) and Creative (X-Fi) to have good stable drivers for my hardware. The current Creative *beta* driver are the worst sh*t i've never seen. Lucky they expire january 8.....

But with Aero Glass, even with a nice 7900GT, some things (GUI) do feel slugish/slow. And copying files do seem slower with Vista, from whatever to whatever (hd2hd, cd2hd, net2hd, ....). I suppose this will change with new/faster hardware MADE for Vista.

[JiveMasterT]

Complaining about Vista at this point is retarded. Does anyone remember how bad Windows XP or Windows 2000 were when they were first released? Post bug reports and press your hardware manufacturers for new drivers. Don't post about them on message boards hoping MS will see the bugs. All this does is get a bunch of other people to pick up sticks and torches and stampeed Microsoft's gates.

[notuptome2004]

That is exactly what I believed. I blamed my "old" PC - and AMD X2 system built on nForce4 for the different problems I was seeing. So I broke the bank. I went out and bought an Intel Core 2 Duo processor, 4GB of RAM, Serial ATAII Hard Discs and more. At the end of it all I found that Vista did run most of my hardware out of the box but drivers showed instabilities, Vista seemed to run programes mostly OK but games are slower, memory usage is bordering on the ridiculous - even on a 4GB system and the operating system itself feels flimsy and not as solid or stable as Windows XP.

On top of that the coolness of the transparencies wore off very quickly, the darkness of the Aero theme (Why is the taskbar always black, no matter how I customize my Aero colors?) became too much and I happily reinstalled Windows XP with em3's themes and was happy to see Windows the way I want it.

I used to believe that SP1 would fix much of what I don't like in Vista. I don't think this is going to happen now. There are just too many things in Vista that I simply don't like, don't want or don't need.

I am happy to see that Microsoft is gathering feedback for the next version of Windows before they have decided on how its going to be. I hope this is a "new" Microsoft I'm seeing because to me Windows Vista is not the best Windows yet although I had high hopes it would be.

well i see none of the slowness you see and i am on a 1.8ghz XP chip AMd system with 1.5gb ram and FX 5600, remeber dude that drivers are not yet RTM drivers so dont blame microsoft for incapable hardware and driver instabilty, microsoft only gives the developers the meens to make the drivers but doesant give them the know how it is up to the driver manufactures to make the driver work not Microsoft, so you blaming Vista for your problems is not wize as it isant Vista but Non finale drivers.

i would sudjest when vista is realsed you get vista agian ultimate edition or what ever version you want and try it agian, as for the Aero interface it has yet to ware off on me as i have been using it for a year and i love it matter of fact vista uses less procceser cycles and less ram using the nice glass aero interface as it is renderd by the Directx 9 3d portion of the graphics pipeline.

By the Way nice system you built man, but i do hope you go vista tho and try it agian specialy for them nice Directx 10 games that will be out well if you have the hardware to push them

[Robgig1088]

IE 7 is crap. i keep having to uninstall it from peoples computers.

yeaaa.. it isnt even compatible with Acid2. Thats pretty sad seeing as how most browsers do. Whenever I make a web site, I have to run internet explorer to see if itll look right on most peoples computers (even if it looks fine in firefox)

[seafirex]

Please excuse my english but i am french so i will have typos and i am sorry again.

For one Microsoft did not make DOS they improved it but not make it. (just for clarification).

Second an o/s that is not out on the market can and will have bugs in it, but also lacks of good decent drivers.

People started using it at early stage of developement and where crying all around the net stating it was not good but that the interface was awsome etc.etc.etc.

Well it is not just the Graphics that comes into play. Specially here, security is one issue (top one by the way)

Secondly how can comeone blame Microsoft for not having decent drivers when they dont make the third party apps or hardware that will be used by the o/s and also if you had took the time to read in the last few years you would have seen an article stating microsoft will not let third party apps go on sale with a microsoft approved logo without proper coding behind the driver itself, so that is one reason why it is taking more time from compagnies such as Nvidia and others to get one out , as per this time microsoft told them to make it right the first time, and if you would have looked at since when they are trying to make one you would have notice it is doing over a year that nvidia and others are trying to make one that fits and works correctly.

Wait till the o/s is out and also give it time it is the same thing that happend with windows XP a few years back when it first came out, not lot of people was in love with it also but approx 6 months or so after it was one of the best as per the same people, Why? because drivers where out!!!!!

I dont like Microsoft more then another but they do make it good in the long run, also Linux and Mac's are very good not better or worst, just different , one is free the other two you need to pay a big price for them but the worst for the price even if the top of the line in graphics is The one from apple as per it can not run other then on there machine's. eg : you are bound to buy things expensive for it to run as per only a few makes the hardware.

So microsoft is not that bad!!!!

[foxconn287]

yeaaa.. it isnt even compatible with Acid2. Thats pretty sad seeing as how most browsers do. Whenever I make a web site, I have to run internet explorer to see if itll look right on most peoples computers (even if it looks fine in firefox)

Nobody gives a flying **** about Acid2. Sorry, you lose.